F1 2007 - Time for conclusions

[Reppu]

Now that it's all over (well, sort of), i think it's time for conclusions. here is my view of the season for the main actors:

Raikkonen: a worth and deserving champion, truly. He did the talking where it has to be done, on the track. His win is the win of the sport and of the job well done.

Hamilton: impressive performance. Second to none when it comes to drive fast, and very intelligent too. He soon realized his preminent position within the team and took advantage from it. But, in the end he demonstrated he was not prepared for the championship. At the moment of truth he cracked under the pressure, with two silly mistakes in a row when he only needed to finish. Many pilots are not happy with his attitude on the track forgetting what was agreed during briefings, that could bring him trouble in the future. Next season will be the man to beat, most likely.

Alonso: would he have been just a bit smarter, he would have been champion. He didn't manage the relationship with his team properly. If you feel ignored within your own team, there are better ways to solve it without going out loud to the press. He should think twice before speaking and not let out the first thing that comes to his mind. He made silly driving mistakes too (Canada, Japan), improper for a double world champion. A rookie got him out of his nerves, again improper for a double world champion. Despite AAALL that, he got the same points than LH, and that is something. He should have learnt a lesson or two this year. One of them: you can't bite the hand that feeds you....

Dennis: what a stupid man. He screwed it totally. Made it too evident that Hamilton was his pretty boy, totally mishandling Alonso's ego. He decided Hamilton would be champion too early (a brit, first rookie ever, how sweet was it uh?), and his bet exploded right in his face. He has been ignoring Alonso for two thirds of the season, leaving him all on his own. Speaking equality bullshit while Alonso's car never worked like his teammate's one. Would he have given Alonso a bit of care (even at the psycological level), he would have avoided the mails affair, and maybe would have got it all: teams championship, pilot championship and sub-championship (in whatever order). Instead he got nothing.

I'm sure many will disagree with my vision, but i would like to hear it nonetheless :up:.

[lowndes888]

Awesome performance by Nick Heidfeld, and BMW Sauber in general. From the 06 Brasil GP I knew that they would be successful in 07 and they were. The constant finishes in points wrapped up their manufacturer's runner up spot pretty early, plus the few times that both Kubica and Heidfeld were outqualifying and passing the Ferraris/McLarens were more than impressive for their second year from the merging of BMW and Sauber. I think they'll be in the top 4 drivers for 2008.

Agree with you about the other stuff



A very interesting thought I had yesterday
If Massa hadn't been DQed at Montreal, we could have had 4 contenders for the title in the last race

[Roger]

It's hard to disagree with that summary Reppu :up:

I struggle in thinking of Ron Dennis as stupid.......but he totally misread how Alonso would deal with the situation (although he would have probably only got it "right" if he slowed Lewis down). He MAY have been stupid..............

In all this I do think the FIA made a mess of just about everything they touched (even now we have an appeal hanging over the championship.....partly because they can't decide how they should measure for their own rules).

I am pleased that Jenson Button had some great drives - it keeps him on the radar.

Emerging star (or re-affirmed if you like) - Nico Rosberg

BMW impressed deeply (much as I wanted them to fail - after the "evil hun" shafted team willy :P)

I hope we don't have to watch Ralph Schumacher tooling around for another year when there is so much fresh talent waiting to get in and really have a go..........

A very tight year's racing all through the field and next year has every reason to be better again.

[Reppu]

Yes, Button has been very professional this year. With a brick of a car, he always gave his best and hardly complained about it (well, not much at least). I think he won the right for a better car.

[Roger]

Did you hear that Buttons mechanics taped a cigarette lighter inside the cockpit for the last race? Just in case he wanted to torch the thing.............:D

[bramski]

Reppu I agree with most of your points, kimi was deserving of the title and I've actually got a lot more respect for him than I did at the beginning of the season regardless if he became champion or not. I understand him a bit more now, he's not a media seal that will clap for a fish instead he is a driving machine that prefers to body swerve the media circus.

Massa is another class act and I think Ferrari have a very fierce team with him and kimi on board which will be tough to beat next year as long as the cars are reliable.

Perhaps it was a bit too soon for hamilton to become world champ even though he's been racing competitively all his life and has been groomed for this for a long time, his rookieness still showed up in the last 2 races but nobody can fault the guy for effort, he knows how lucky he is to be in the position he is in and I don't think he takes any of it for granted. One thing I'd like to see from him next year is a bit more media savvy ie... keep your mouth shut regarding internal affairs Lewis. Hopefully the media will drop the hero worship next year and we can actually see some other drivers getting some coverage next year.


Alonso made a lot of errors off the track and his relationship with McLaren went from bad to worse mainly due to Fernandos lack of respect for the team, he wasn't content with the assurance that his car was operating at the peak of it's abilities, instead he wanted Hamiltons car to be made to run slower which is wrong IMO regardless if you are a twice world champion or not. Lets not even go near the whole red car escapade.


Ron Dennis did the best he could I think, he was in a very unenviable position of having to juggle his protege and a twice world champion who both had extremely capable cars and equal abilities.

I genuinely don't think Ron knew just how much Lewis would dominate F1 this year and it would have made Rons life a whole lot easier is Lewis' performance was a bit more sporadic this year with flashes of brilliance and potential of things to come rather than out and out quality from the word go.

Lewis showed that he was capable of challenging Alonso and Ron did the sporting thing by letting the two of them go toe to toe, from a business point of view it was bad because I genuinely think Fernando would be a 3 times world champion today if He got number one status but F1 is a sport first and a business second IMO and I respect Ron Dennis for acknowledging that.

[rasfigjohn]

Well said Reppu... I agree with the things you said and the way you said it (disappointed? :D)

I really loved this season and in spite of (or because of) all the mess that happened it will remain in my mind as one of the big F1 championships.
Too bad there wasn't at least another team to mix with Ferrari and McLaren... I hope it will happen next year.
I hope for example that Kubica can win his first GP... it would be fun.

[Wee Scot]

Reppu,

I think you gave an excellent assessment of what went right and what went wrong for Kimi, Lewis, and Fernando. Of course I don't agree with your assessment of Ron Dennis as "stupid" or your claim that Alonso's equipment was anything less than the best McLaren could provide. ("Speaking equality bullshit while Alonso's car never worked like his teammate's one.") That's rubbish... How then do you explain the performance and support Alonso got at Monza? And what about Spa? If ever a team had a reason to want to sabotage a car, that was the weekend...

I agree with bramski that Ron did the best he could in a no-win situation vis-a-vis that presumtuous and petulant prince, Fernando Alonso. He stuck to his principles of equality of opportunity and it cost him, but he was true to the sport.

BTW, I hope Massa gets the chance to compete as a co-#1 with Kimi at the start of next season. He's earned that. He came back with some solid drives--especially the one he just completed in front of his countrymen--after some early errors that would have destroyed the confidence of many drivers. I don't think you can overstate how brilliant he was Saturday and Sunday. He really had more pressure on his shoulders than anyone else on the track, I submit. Had he made another silly error it would have cost his teammate the championship! Great respect to Felipe or "Ol' Phil Massa" as David Hobbs likes to call him.

Oh, and rasfigjohn, I too hope that "Ol' Bob" Kubica, and several other second-tier drivers, including Jenson Button, join the Tussle at the Top next year! If they really do manage to regulate the electronics and do away with traction control, that could really shake things up, I think (hope)!

[Paul_in_DC]

Reppu,

I think you gave an excellent assessment of what went right and what went wrong for Kimi, Lewis, and Fernando. Of course I don't agree with your assessment of Ron Dennis as "stupid" or your claim that Alonso's equipment was anything less than the best McLaren could provide. ("Speaking equality bullshit while Alonso's car never worked like his teammate's one.") That's rubbish... How then do you explain the performance and support Alonso got at Monza? And what about Spa? If ever a team had a reason to want to sabotage a car, that was the weekend...


Agreed. Alonso got the same number of points as Hamilton, so his car must've been doing pretty well, despite all the complaints and rumors.

Maybe it's a good thing for Hamilton that he missed out on number one his first season. Sure, he had a great season and deserved the accolades, but being number two will make him try that much harder in the future.

[Dzul]

Reppu's review is pretty good... a bit off on the McLaren car's performance, since I don't think there was a mechanical sabotage of sorts, but certainly a psychological one since Dennis should have leaned towards the defending Champion rather than the rookie, because his behaviour did show a preference towards the idea of Lewis grabbing the title. Again, just my opinion... :P

Furthermore I'm very much looking forward to 2008, with less car-aids on and more risks on the track!!
I am hoping we'll have a very surprising season where the REAL drivers will have a chance to show off... :D:up:

[Revvin]

Now that it's all over (well, sort of), i think it's time for conclusions. here is my view of the season for the main actors:

Raikkonen: a worth and deserving champion, truly. He did the talking where it has to be done, on the track. His win is the win of the sport and of the job well done.

Hamilton: impressive performance. Second to none when it comes to drive fast, and very intelligent too. He soon realized his preminent position within the team and took advantage from it. But, in the end he demonstrated he was not prepared for the championship. At the moment of truth he cracked under the pressure, with two silly mistakes in a row when he only needed to finish. Many pilots are not happy with his attitude on the track forgetting what was agreed during briefings, that could bring him trouble in the future. Next season will be the man to beat, most likely.

Alonso: would he have been just a bit smarter, he would have been champion. He didn't manage the relationship with his team properly. If you feel ignored within your own team, there are better ways to solve it without going out loud to the press. He should think twice before speaking and not let out the first thing that comes to his mind. He made silly driving mistakes too (Canada, Japan), improper for a double world champion. A rookie got him out of his nerves, again improper for a double world champion. Despite AAALL that, he got the same points than LH, and that is something. He should have learnt a lesson or two this year. One of them: you can't bite the hand that feeds you....

Dennis: what a stupid man. He screwed it totally. Made it too evident that Hamilton was his pretty boy, totally mishandling Alonso's ego. He decided Hamilton would be champion too early (a brit, first rookie ever, how sweet was it uh?), and his bet exploded right in his face. He has been ignoring Alonso for two thirds of the season, leaving him all on his own. Speaking equality bullshit while Alonso's car never worked like his teammate's one. Would he have given Alonso a bit of care (even at the psycological level), he would have avoided the mails affair, and maybe would have got it all: teams championship, pilot championship and sub-championship (in whatever order). Instead he got nothing.

I'm sure many will disagree with my vision, but i would like to hear it nonetheless :up:.

I'd agree with most of that, yes Alonso made mistakes in Canada and Barcelona but he's only human but perhaps not as unflappable as some have made out like the Renault engineer quoted a few days ago which made him sound infallable. I don't think Ron Dennis chose Hamilton as a championship winner - I believe a lot of that stems from Alonso's outbursts early on making it seem it was that way. He could have made Alonso ride shotgun for Hamilton but allowed them to race and Briatore has been quoted (http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071023160628.shtml)as saying Dennis should have replaced Alonso with a test driver - though I'm sure he would have loved that to happen to push Alonso back to Renault.

Overall I'm quite glad its over. The spying scandal and inhouse fighting at McLaren tainted the championship.

[Kongo]

Hamilton: Many pilots are not happy with his attitude on the track forgetting what was agreed during briefings, that could bring him trouble in the future. Next season will be the man to beat, most likely.

Not what i hear. They are all congratulating him, saying he's bringing F1 to a new level and is very educated in racing and his attitude is top notch...I guess they may say things behind his back tho...

Anyways, the official Appeal has started but could Hamilton and McLaren fall out?
Hamilton doesn't want to go ahead, saying "It would be cruel to take the championship now. I want to win it on the track not by some appeal."
But McLaren are going ahead regardless. Ttrue justice should be done but even as a Hamilton fan, I agree it's cruel and admire his sportsmanship...as do all the drivers. :):up:

Did you hear that Buttons mechanics taped a cigarette lighter inside the cockpit for the last race? Just in case he wanted to torch the thing.............:D

Yep, before race start LOL!

[Altarir]

My conclusions from this season:

1st and most important: Kimi and Ferrari are the best!

2) Ron Denis needs to learn how to loose with some dignity...
3).. and how to manage his drivers
4) mclaren need to learn how to make their own documentation (that won't be difficult: they saw how Ferrari does it :) )
5) Hamilton is fast, but he should think about changing his team: mclaren isn't bringing him fans, at least outside the UK.
6) Alonso would rather race alone in a wheelbarrow, than in a F1 team (especially mclaren) with a fast teammate...
7)... but at least he's not afraid, to say, what he thinks
8) BMW need to work on reliability
9) FIA is biased
10) On most tracks (especially on Monaco), if it doesn't rain, water should be randomly sprayed onto the track
11) F1 cars are really safe (thinking about Kubica's accident in the Canadian GP)

thats mostly all

[lowndes888]

My conclusions from this season:

1st and most important: Kimi and Ferrari are the best!

2) Ron Denis needs to learn how to loose with some dignity...
3).. and how to manage his drivers
4) mclaren need to learn how to make their own documentation (that won't be difficult: they saw how Ferrari does it :) )
5) Hamilton is fast, but he should think about changing his team: mclaren isn't bringing him fans, at least outside the UK.
6) Alonso would rather race alone in a wheelbarrow, than in a F1 team (especially mclaren) with a fast teammate...
7)... but at least he's not afraid, to say, what he thinks
8) BMW need to work on reliability
9) FIA is biased
10) On most tracks (especially on Monaco), if it doesn't rain, water should be randomly sprayed onto the track
11) F1 cars are really safe (thinking about Kubica's accident in the Canadian GP)

thats mostly all

BMW work on reliability???

BMW need to work on getting more speed, they have reliability

[GEISHA]

Max Mosley, is his well known neutral unprejudiced way, has congratulated Kimi Raikkonen.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/GEISHA222/323460mfqg1qa4.jpg

[rasfigjohn]

Max Mosley, is his well known neutral unprejudiced way, has congratulated Kimi Raikkonen.


Lol... that'd be nice to dress him in scottish certified halfwit... :D

[GEISHA]

dress him in scottish certified halfwit

Sorry I forgot to show you the whole picture.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/GEISHA222/323460mfqg1qa4-1.jpg

[euanmilne]

TBH am biased as a Ferrari fan, but think that huge credit has to go to Kimi. Never gave up and tbh McLaren gave it away rather than Fezza winning it. But anyway on to next year have to say it looks good. Don't forget as Martin Brundle said in commentry, the last race of the year usually determines form for start of next year. Ferrari won by best part of a minute even though they slowed down to save engine + tyres etc.. and Kimi said there was more speed in the car if it was needed. BRING ON 2008!

[Wee Scot]

dress him in scottish certified halfwit

Sorry I forgot to show you the whole picture.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/GEISHA222/323460mfqg1qa4-1.jpg

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

THANKS for that! Two of my kids just asked, "Dad, what the hell are you laughing at so hard?"

[Altarir]

BMW work on reliability???

BMW need to work on getting more speed, they have reliability

Kubica's car broke down quite often, including the Chinese GP, when he was leading

[Roger]

Does anyone know what number McLaren will run next year?

0 & 0 ?? :D

[LordRa9826]

21-22???

[rasfigjohn]

dress him in scottish certified halfwit

Sorry I forgot to show you the whole picture.


Ah ah ah ah ah! Thanks!
How about a kilt? :D

[Reppu]

I heard somewhere that Hamilton will take #22 and Alonso (or anyone else) #23. That would mean that other team will have three cars on the grid in 2008......uhmmmmm.

[GEISHA]

The 2007 season in pictures:
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/GEISHA222/2000-23.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/GEISHA222/VirityksetEng.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/GEISHA222/NakymatontaTyotaE.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/GEISHA222/FerrariKuljettajatE.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/GEISHA222/RajatapausE.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/GEISHA222/MustaLammasE.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/GEISHA222/gp0213.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w192/GEISHA222/Onneksi-olkoonKimiE.jpg

[rasfigjohn]

That black sheep thing reminds me of this nice poster by Swiss Political party for their last elections...
Ok it's off topic but after all many F1 drivers live in Switzerland and as Hamilton is looking for a new home... But as they say "money has no color" ...

[Wee Scot]

Does anyone know what number McLaren will run next year?

0 & 0 ?? :D

If Alonso stays, it should be 2A (Lewis) and 2B (Fernando). :D

[Wee Scot]

I heard somewhere that Hamilton will take #22 and Alonso (or anyone else) #23. That would mean that other team will have three cars on the grid in 2008......uhmmmmm.

YES... As I wrote in the Imola thread:

Maybe Mr. Machiav ...er Montezemolo was just paving the way for an upcoming announcement that Ferrari will enter three cars in 2008.

:D

[Wee Scot]

Since we're back on the subject of Alonso... ;)

As I wrote in the Interlagos thread, I really have no desire to tear down what's left of Fernando's reputation as a sportsman. But I found the source of my information about his alleged comment about Hamilton accepting the championship on appeal. It was in a column by Matt Dickinson, Chief Sports Correspondent for TimesOnline.

"Most impressively, [Hamilton] spoke about how he would not want to win the title on a technical appeal, but as a driver battling wheel-to-wheel with his rivals. It was a retort to all those fans of Ferrari and Fernando Alonso who have alleged that the young Englishman has received preferential treatment this season.

"As Hamilton spoke, Alonso, his McLaren “team-mate” was maintaining a barrage of abuse from Spain. “If Hamilton wins the championship after this,” he said, “it wouldn’t be fair and I would be ashamed to be in this sport.” He claimed that Hamilton “would be delighted if they give it to him”. Sorry to disappoint, Fernando."

Here's a link to the whole column:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle2719663.ece

[rasfigjohn]

Here's a link to the whole column:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle2719663.ece

Error page... looks like you're spreading rumors against Alonso... :D

[Wee Scot]

Hmmm...

Maybe they moved it since it first ran. Here's the current link from the TimesOnline site:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/matt_dickinson/article2719663.ece

[EDIT: Yes, this link works.]

[rasfigjohn]

Hmmm...

Maybe they moved it since it first ran. Here's the current link from the TimesOnline site:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/matt_dickinson/article2719663.ece

[EDIT: Yes, this link works.]

No in fact the first link had been cut when you pasted it.

[Wee Scot]

No in fact the first link had been cut when you pasted it.

Ah, yes! Now I understand.

[Roger]

Since we're back on the subject of Alonso... ;)

As I wrote in the Interlagos thread, I really have no desire to tear down what's left of Fernando's reputation as a sportsman. But I found the source of my information about his alleged comment about Hamilton accepting the championship on appeal. It was in a column by Matt Dickinson, Chief Sports Correspondent for TimesOnline.

"Most impressively, [Hamilton] spoke about how he would not want to win the title on a technical appeal, but as a driver battling wheel-to-wheel with his rivals. It was a retort to all those fans of Ferrari and Fernando Alonso who have alleged that the young Englishman has received preferential treatment this season.

"As Hamilton spoke, Alonso, his McLaren “team-mate” was maintaining a barrage of abuse from Spain. “If Hamilton wins the championship after this,” he said, “it wouldn’t be fair and I would be ashamed to be in this sport.” He claimed that Hamilton “would be delighted if they give it to him”. Sorry to disappoint, Fernando."

Here's a link to the whole column:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle2719663.ece


Funny how people can (may) be mis-quoted:

I read Alonso's words elsewhere and he said he didn't think Hamilton would want to win in this way. I interpreted Alonso's statement as being pretty positive and being absolutely correct in say that to switch the outcome now would be terrible for the sport.

[Wee Scot]

Funny how people can (may) be mis-quoted:

I read Alonso's words elsewhere and he said he didn't think Hamilton would want to win in this way. I interpreted Alonso's statement as being pretty positive and being absolutely correct in say that to switch the outcome now would be terrible for the sport.

And that may BE a misquote. That's why I wrote "...his alleged comment..." I hope it was taken out of context or mistranslated.

[Reppu]

Well, for the moment this is just words that this guy Petterson puts in FA lips. But did he state the source for that or was he present when that was alledgely said?. As i stated before, i didn't hear that in any spanish media and that would be strange since all media here enjoys bashing LH as much as they can. BUT, if FA actually said that, he should stop it and move on. No point in throwing gasoline into the flames.

[Dzul]

That black sheep thing reminds me of this nice poster by Swiss Political party for their last elections...
Ok it's off topic but after all many F1 drivers live in Switzerland and as Hamilton is looking for a new home... But as they say "money has no color" ...

Funny that you point that poster out... as I can relate to it, but not in the way everybody looks at it. I honestly think that black sheep represents the people that do not contribute to society, rather than people of dark skin. Let me add that I myself have a toned skin and live in the Netherlands, where similar issues are at stake. I came to NL legally, and followed the whole Immigration Procedure from A to Z (paying fees with my honestly earned money) and passed all tests with flying colours. I am now a Dutch citizen and it was not easy to become one, what has been easy is to be a good one, since my values are exactly the same as the locally-born: honesty, hard work and social contribution. I wouldn't like to have my taxes pay for "social parasites" (black sheep) since I went to the painful procedure of doing things right and earn my right to vote.

I think that black sheep in the Swiss poster is generally taken in the wrong context... my 2 cents. :rolleyes:

But that's WAY out of topic... :o

I loved the Bernie cartoon with the Scalectrix! :roflmao:

[Wee Scot]

Well, for the moment this is just words that this guy Petterson puts in FA lips. But did he state the source for that or was he present when that was alledgely said?. As i stated before, i didn't hear that in any spanish media and that would be strange since all media here enjoys bashing LH as much as they can. BUT, if FA actually said that, he should stop it and move on. No point in throwing gasoline into the flames.

I'm inclined to agree with you, Reppu. That's just the sort of insult of LH that Marca would have been quick to pick up on, I should think.

[rasfigjohn]

Funny that you point that poster out... as I can relate to it, but not in the way everybody looks at it. I honestly think that black sheep represents the people that do not contribute to society, rather than people of dark skin. Let me add that I myself have a toned skin and live in the Netherlands, where similar issues are at stake. I came to NL legally, and followed the whole Immigration Procedure from A to Z (paying fees with my honestly earned money) and passed all tests with flying colours. I am now a Dutch citizen and it was not easy to become one, what has been easy is to be a good one, since my values are exactly the same as the locally-born: honesty, hard work and social contribution. I wouldn't like to have my taxes pay for "social parasites" (black sheep) since I went to the painful procedure of doing things right and earn my right to vote.

I think that black sheep in the Swiss poster is generally taken in the wrong context... my 2 cents. :rolleyes:

But that's WAY out of topic... :o

I loved the Bernie cartoon with the Scalectrix! :roflmao:

Such images are not innocent they're "dual sided". People like you can understand it in the way you do. And others more inclined to racism can understand it in their own way. So... both of them can vote for this party. That's politics.
I'm not addicted to conspiracy theories but I'm not that naive. My skin is not toned, I'm black. I'm French. I was born french. I even work for the government. I pay my taxes. Even for the so called parasites.. because I know a lot of people in France think my little island is a "parasite" living on their taxes.
To end with that Off Topic subject, my point is that all these things are too complicated to sum them up in black sheep images like this one. And doing so is poor (but efficient on a short term) populism. When you look at our planet History, every time politics has put people against each other, condemning a so called parasite side of population, it was for the benefit of a few guys and it ended in blood.

About Max Mosley who is certainly not seen as a parasite, he admits his love for Ferrari http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/156392-0/mosley_ferrari_most_important_team_in_f1.html

Not only his but FIA's love for Ferrari.

[Wee Scot]

Such images are not innocent they're "dual sided". People like you can understand it in the way you do. And others more inclined to racism can understand it in their own way. So... both of them can vote for this party. That's politics.
I'm not addicted to conspiracy theories but I'm not that naive. My skin is not toned, I'm black. I'm French. I was born french. I even work for the government. I pay my taxes. Even for the so called parasites.. because I know a lot of people in France think my little island is a "parasite" living on their taxes.
To end with that Off Topic subject, my point is that all these things are too complicated to sum them up in black sheep images like this one. And doing so is poor (but efficient on a short term) populism. When you look at our planet History, every time politics has put people against each other, condemning a so called parasite side of population, it was for the benefit of a few guys and it ended in blood.

Powerful points, those. :(

About Max Mosley who is certainly not seen as a parasite, he admits his love for Ferrari http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/156392-0/mosley_ferrari_most_important_team_in_f1.html

Not only his but FIA's love for Ferrari.

Amazing. I understand his point about Ferrari being juxtaposed against a slew of UK-based teams, but what about BMW Sauber? Are we to assume that Max feels a special responsibility to make sure the Germans' feathers aren't ruffled, too?

[manzarek]

McLaren fine to be over $50 million


The fine that McLaren will have to pay as a result of the World Motor Sport Council's judgement in the spying affair will be 'in excess of $50 million (USD)', the FIA has confirmed.

The team were fined $100 million USD and lost all their constructors' championship points when found guilty of having benefited from the receipt of confidential Ferrari information.

But that total included the revenue that would have been earned in prize money for their eventual finishing position in the 2007 constructors' championship.

With the loss of constructors' points from the Hungarian Grand Prix taken into account, McLaren would have come second in the 2007 standings behind Ferrari at the end of the season.

With the final positions settled by the results of last weekend's Brazilian Grand Prix, the FIA has now been able to calculate how much money McLaren will have to pay.

"Following the judgement of the World Motor Sport Council on 13 September, a sum in excess of $50 million will be paid in December to the FIA," said an FIA statement.

The governing body also confirmed that the money would be distributed amongst national motorsport authorities and used to improve safety, and that Mercedes and Ferrari would be given a say in how it was spent.

"This will be used to establish the FIA Development Fund, which will assist the work of National Sporting Authorities (ASNs) in promoting the development of safer motor sport worldwide, especially in countries where the motor sport infrastructure is in need of support," said the statement.

"Representatives from Mercedes and Ferrari will be invited to join the Fund's board."

[Dzul]

So, if I want to start racing in the local Suzuki Swift Cup at Zandvoort, can they sponsor me? :D

I hope they actually DO what they say they're going to do with that money, it sounds pretty fair.

[Kongo]

That black sheep thing reminds me of this nice poster by Swiss Political party for their last elections...
Ok it's off topic but after all many F1 drivers live in Switzerland and as Hamilton is looking for a new home... But as they say "money has no color" ...

Funny that you point that poster out... as I can relate to it, but not in the way everybody looks at it. I honestly think that black sheep represents the people that do not contribute to society, rather than people of dark skin. Let me add that I myself have a toned skin and live in the Netherlands, where similar issues are at stake. I came to NL legally, and followed the whole Immigration Procedure from A to Z (paying fees with my honestly earned money) and passed all tests with flying colours. I am now a Dutch citizen and it was not easy to become one, what has been easy is to be a good one, since my values are exactly the same as the locally-born: honesty, hard work and social contribution. I wouldn't like to have my taxes pay for "social parasites" (black sheep) since I went to the painful procedure of doing things right and earn my right to vote.

I think that black sheep in the Swiss poster is generally taken in the wrong context... my 2 cents. :rolleyes:

But that's WAY out of topic... :o

I loved the Bernie cartoon with the Scalectrix! :roflmao:

Well I have to eply to this. I dunno why people of different races think they are discriminated against, in this country they have more say than us "Whites". For example there's "Black music" but your not allowed to say white music. And there's the MOBO's "Music of Black Origin"... But no music of white origin.

See what I mean here? I think people of other races jus assume bad attitude and don't realise the truth do they?

As for "Money has no colour"...well both white nor black are a colour but a shade. :)
But then if you speak colour then that includes everyone, not only black is called a colour y'know geez...Bet people hated it if I said something cause I'm white eh?

I'll say it again, keep racism outta sports please.

[Revvin]

Well I have to eply to this. I dunno why people of different races think they are discriminated against, in this country they have more say than us "Whites". For example there's "Black music" but your not allowed to say white music. And there's the MOBO's "Music of Black Origin"... But no music of white origin.

Yes and don't forget the employers like local councils or the police force holding interviews only for members of certain ethnic backgrounds, imagine the outcry holding interviews for whites only. But the one thing that really annoys me is when something happens to make the news, say a murder or something and you get someone coming forward who speaks for the 'asian/black/muslim/etc community' - why can't it just be a member of the 'community' why do some people feel the need to segregate themselves like this and pidgeon hole themselves into these different ethic communities?

[Kongo]

Yes and don't forget the employers like local councils or the police force holding interviews only for members of certain ethnic backgrounds, imagine the outcry holding interviews for whites only. But the one thing that really annoys me is when something happens to make the news, say a murder or something and you get someone coming forward who speaks for the 'asian/black/muslim/etc community' - why can't it just be a member of the 'community' why do some people feel the need to segregate themselves like this and pidgeon hole themselves into these different ethic communities?

I was in that possition last year. Unless I was Polish I couldn't have the job I went for...In my own country!
I think we need less "woe is me, my race is always put down" and more reasoning that whites are actually put with more racism these days then blacks.

So, on topic with Hamilton, whatever the race. Till someone said, I didn't know he was black anyways.
Y'see, i see only two types: Human and Not Human.
And if human, which sex? And that's it.

People will never get along as long as other races keep themselfs to themselfs and think they have to huddle together or complain about racism. Let's jus all live together like cats and dogs do geez...and we really think were advanced? My cats black, he doesn't attack other cats because of thier colour! :D

[gemer319]

I have to disagree on the Hamilton part,he was more than ready for the championship.But the team (Mclaren) made in the last race some seriously wrong decisions,for instance after the gearbox problem in the 8th round,they changed the strategy for Hamilton for 2 stops to 3 stops.
If they hadn't changed the strategy,Im sure he would have won the championship.

[Dzul]

Y'see, i see only two types: Human and Not Human.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: LOL! :D :D :D :D ;)

http://www.xfilesfanclub.com/userImages/productImages/IW2B_Mousepad_TRXF1004_lg.jpg

[rasfigjohn]

Well I have to eply to this. I dunno why people of different races think they are discriminated against, in this country they have more say than us "Whites". For example there's "Black music" but your not allowed to say white music.

:eek: Now that's a real privilege.


I was in that possition last year. Unless I was Polish I couldn't have the job I went for...In my own country!
I think we need less "woe is me, my race is always put down" and more reasoning that whites are actually put with more racism these days then blacks.


:eek::eek:
Yes... next UK Prime Minister will be a Black Muslim Polish woman. That's for sure. :rolleyes:

'll say it again, keep racism outta sports please.

Ok. I'll do that. Easy. :cool:

[washington96]

Lets keep the race issues out of here eh? This is a racesim not racism site.

Okay here's my view of this years drivers for what it's worth...

Kimi - I agree with everything Reppu said, he has kept his head down and done his talking on the track where it should be done. All credit to him for that and a deserving champion.

Lewis - Was absolutely ready to win the championship. Just a shame that McLaren were not. They should have pulled him into the pits for a new pair of boots at China. They didn't and Lewis paid the price. They should have made sure that his car was bulletproof for Interlagos, they didn't and Lewis paid the price. For his first year in F1 I think he has done a superb job. He has coped well with the incredible pressure that he has been put under and delivered a performance that nobody predicted at the start of the year.

As for saying that the other drivers have issues with his driving style then for one I don't actually believe this to be the case and also on a F1 drivers contract there are the words 'racing driver.' Perhaps some of the drivers on the grid could do with reminding themselves about that. You may well remember that Senna used to get the same kind of complaints.

Lewis this year will be a much stronger opponent. As long as McLaren give him a decent car then he will be a true challenger for the title.

Fernando - What can I say about Fernando? For sure he has a talent for driving, but temperment and attitude to racing leaves a lot to be desired. A true racing driver can work around issues with a car or a team and still win races. I think he let himself get rattled very early on in the season and it just snowballed from there. To be honest I think it is him that was not ready to win the World Championship and now has a problem looking past his ego to see what really has to be done to win with a car or team that is not 100%. Maybe it was because he was the current champion that he put himself under a lot of pressure, but I think he could have dealt with that a lot better instead of making excuses for not dominating his team mate.

He is still young and maybe maturity will come to him over the years, who knows.

Felipe - I was more than please when Ferrari extended his contract as I believe he truly deserves it. If it wasn't for reliability issues and that silly incident at Canada I think he too would have been in the running for the championship near the end there. I believe Felipe can match Kimi when he keeps a cool head, which he has improved a lot on in the last two seasons. One to watch next year I believe.

Heidfeld - A solid performance all year. Lets hope that BMW take the next step and join in the race for both championships in 2008.

Kubica - Same as Heidfield. Plus to come back so soon after the heavy crash at Canada showed some courage. Hopefully this young driver will get the chance to show what he is capable of in his career in F1.

Ron Dennis - To say that he is stupid is extremely harsh. He's hasn't been around the sport for over four decades by chance. He should not have to massage anybodies ego and fragile temperment. Obviously McLaren have been under intense pressure this year and they blew it in the last two races. I have not agreed with some of their decisions and I certainly do not agree with the appeal about the fuel temperatures. Time to let it go and move on into 2008.

As for the season itself well it had a lot of ups, but also more than it's share of downs too. I'm hoping that next year there will be less talk off the track and more racing on it. I'm looking forward to the banning of Traction Control and lets hope that this time it will be regulated properly so TC can be a thing of the past.

[Wee Scot]

Kubica - ...to come back so soon after the heavy crash at Canada showed some courage. Hopefully this young driver will get the chance to show what he is capable of in his career in F1.
Yes, good point! (BTW, his crash gets my vote as best "carbon and turf spray" video ever!)

Ron Dennis - To say that he is stupid is extremely harsh. He's hasn't been around the sport for over four decades by chance. He should not have to massage anybodies ego and fragile temperment.
YES! Ron was the victim of TWO spoiled, rich SOBs this year. ...stiff upper lip, now. That's it, steady...

I'm looking forward to the banning of Traction Control and lets hope that this time it will be regulated properly so TC can be a thing of the past.
The 'spec' black boxes should do the trick!

[Kongo]

:eek: Now that's a real privilege.




:eek::eek:
Yes... next UK Prime Minister will be a Black Muslim Polish woman. That's for sure. :rolleyes:



Ok. I'll do that. Easy. :cool:

:cool::up:

[PorscheDriver]

i'm glad kimi won. i think alonso and hamilton should have been booted out of the drivers championship at the same time as mclaren were hoofed from the constructors championship

some may say that they were innocent and didn't know that ferrari information was maybe used to tweak their cars, but look at it this way...

you buy a dvd player from somebody in good faith because he says he needs the money, he says it's not stolen and you believe him

if it turns out that it is stolen and the law finds out, you still lose your dvd player even though you're innocent

[washington96]

And they did lose their dvd player when they lost the constructors points, with a nice big fine on top.

If the drivers had been banned then who would have gained from that??? I know who would have lost out the most and that would be us. The viewing public. I'm pretty sure that's why they were not booted out. F1 is a business, but it's an entertainment business. Without the teams battling for the championships then there is no entertainment.

If you start banning teams left right and centre for 'spying' incidents then there would be nobody left in F1 as they all do it to some degree.

[Revvin]

If you start banning teams left right and centre for 'spying' incidents then there would be nobody left in F1 as they all do it to some degree.

"some degree" yes they watch each other as Patrick Head admitted this season during an interview they saw McLaren's front wing design and made their own version, cameramen take pictures of each others cars and drivers have often had a quick look inside their rivals cockpit in parc ferme but they have not had over 700 pages of design documents and team strategy.

[snowy]

A reply to PorscheDriver.

Let us not forget the whole spy saga was kicked off by Ferrari deliberately making a car that was illegal, their own engineer told the FIA that the car was illegal. The FIA chose to ignore the engineer. The engineer insensed by the FIA's unwillingness to investigate the legality of the 2007 Ferrari approached McLaren and pointed out that the Ferrari was illegal, when eventually the FIA got off their collective arse and investigated, the car was deemed to be illegal. And before you start there was no necessity for the regulations to be clarified the car was illegal and was never run in that configuration again. However Ferrari kept the points from that race, won in an illegal car. There has as yet been no actual evidence presented that Ferrari intellectual property was present on any McLaren car. If you were to take the time to read the FIA transcript of the case against McLaren you would be suprised to find how circumstantial the evidence actually is.

[Reppu]

Ron Dennis - To say that he is stupid is extremely harsh.


True. It was too much for a calling and i retract those words. I will say instead that he was overwhelmed and mind-blocked by all that was happening, and he made some stupid mistakes, just like his two pilots.


He should not have to massage anybodies ego and fragile temperment.


I couldn't disagree more. I would say that it's one of the main tasks of a team manager, to keep his pilots motivated and in the best mood possible to get the best results. Dennis did this very well with one of his pilots...

[washington96]

True. It was too much for a calling and i retract those words. I will say instead that he was overwhelmed and mind-blocked by all that was happening, and he made some stupid mistakes, just like his two pilots.

There is no doubt that McLaren dropped the ball this season. They should have had the drivers championship wrapped up in China. To blame one man just doesn't seem right. Ron has obvously been under a lot of pressure and has seen his whole career in F1 being scrutinised and held up to question.

I couldn't disagree more. I would say that it's one of the main tasks of a team manager, to keep his pilots motivated and in the best mood possible to get the best results. Dennis did this very well with one of his pilots...

If a driver needs to be motivated to perform then he is wasting that racing seat. Fair enough you have to provide the best for your drivers and try and get them in the best mood before a race, but that's a two way thing and as we have already discussed previously neither side has covered themselves in glory on this point.

The biggest mistake Ron made was that he should have brought the hammer down on Alonso as soon as he started to complain about his treatment at McLaren and sorted out the issues face to face until both sides had cleared the air. Maybe that way Alonso would have known his place and concentrated on his performance instead of creating a list of excuses for his lack of domination at McLaren. All these comments through the press from both sides did neither of their reputations any good.

Again I think both sides could have done a hell of a lot better.

[Revvin]

A reply to PorscheDriver.

Let us not forget the whole spy saga was kicked off by Ferrari deliberately making a car that was illegal, their own engineer told the FIA that the car was illegal. The FIA chose to ignore the engineer. The engineer insensed by the FIA's unwillingness to investigate the legality of the 2007 Ferrari approached McLaren and pointed out that the Ferrari was illegal, when eventually the FIA got off their collective arse and investigated, the car was deemed to be illegal. And before you start there was no necessity for the regulations to be clarified the car was illegal and was never run in that configuration again. However Ferrari kept the points from that race, won in an illegal car. There has as yet been no actual evidence presented that Ferrari intellectual property was present on any McLaren car. If you were to take the time to read the FIA transcript of the case against McLaren you would be suprised to find how circumstantial the evidence actually is.

Ferrari's car was not illegal, had it been illegal the stewards at the track would have disqualified it or the FIA would have taken action. All the teams push the FIA's design spec to the limit which is why McLaren have also been forced to change parts of their car as Ferrari did, not because they were illegal but the rules were clarified and the teams made to change their cars. If you believe Stepney's letters then you'll believe anything, he's a desperate man who knows he's off to the 'big house' once the Italian court action gets underway. The evidence given to the FIA was not circumstantial at all.

[Wee Scot]

Maurice Hamilton, for the Observer (Guardian), compared the Lewis Hamilton rookie performance to that of David Coulthard, who just released an autobiography, "It Is What It Is."

Alonso, who suspected favouritism towards Hamilton, may also be advised to read Coulthard's book, particularly the passage relating to Coulthard's partnership with Mika Hakkinen: 'The first sign that there might be specific favouritism towards Mika came in Melbourne 1996 [Coulthard's first race for McLaren]. I was with my race engineer and Mika was chatting to his.

'The door opened and Ron [Dennis] walked in. I stood up to shake his hand and Ron ignored me. Instead he strode over to sit next to Mika and said, "What's the plan, guys?" We all listened to Mika's plans [for the race] and then Ron said, "OK, what are they doing?" Here was my team principal talking about me as if I was a rival team. "They" is not a word you use in a team situation, surely? At that exact moment, I think the naivety, the innocence of my youth, shattered around me.'

Coulthard went on to explain that, despite continual assurances to the contrary, it took Dennis a few years to admit that he did favour Hakkinen.

Bearing this in mind, and knowing that Alonso in particular would suspect discrimination because of Dennis's 12-year association with Hamilton, the McLaren boss went out of his way to be even-handed in 2007. It would cost him dearly. If Dennis had given Alonso the status he was due, at least for one year, then the Spaniard would have been allowed to overtake Hamilton at Indianapolis to win that race and, as it would turn out, the title.

On that basis, Hamilton is probably happy that Raikkonen is the champion.

Very interesting... OK, so did Ron Dennis REALLY favor Mika over David, or did it just seem that way to David because of this initial "perceived" slight on his part? Did Ron deliberately snub Coulthard in the garage in Melbourne in '96, or did it just appear that way to David. Is Ron just clumsy as a communicator, or is Coulthard's recollection of all of this colored by the bitterness of his own personal failure to ever reach the top of his profession?

:D

[Reppu]

I don't have answers for those questions, but surely this piece of reading gives a new perspective to the whole situation within McL. As i've said dozens of times, there's a difference between saying you are equal and then actually being equal.

[washington96]

If Dennis had given Alonso the status he was due, at least for one year, then the Spaniard would have been allowed to overtake Hamilton at Indianapolis to win that race and, as it would turn out, the title.

What was he due? He got the car what else do you want?

What does he mean by if he had been allowed to overtake Hamilton at Indianapolis? I believe he was allowed, just didn't make it past on the track. That was a fair race that Hamilton won. What was he supposed to do, pull over and let Alonso past?

Personaly I would be quite happy for Ron to just give me the best car that McLaren had. He can keep all his hugs and kisses for somebody else.

Sensitive souls these F1 drivers of today aren't they??

[Wee Scot]

If Dennis had given Alonso the status he was due, at least for one year, then the Spaniard would have been allowed to overtake Hamilton at Indianapolis to win that race and, as it would turn out, the title.

What was he due? He got the car what else do you want?

What does he mean by if he had been allowed to overtake Hamilton at Indianapolis? I believe he was allowed, just didn't make it past on the track. That was a fair race that Hamilton won. What was he supposed to do, pull over and let Alonso past?

Personaly I would be quite happy for Ron to just give me the best car that McLaren had. He can keep all his hugs and kisses for somebody else.

Sensitive souls these F1 drivers of today aren't they??

Great post, Washington. You took my bait and answered it in exactly the way I would have, had I not wanted to test people's reaction, first!

"His due..." ??? Racing is about getting into the lead and staying there! So Alonso couldn't get past Hamilton on the road at Indianapolis. Why was he behind him in the first place? Oh, that's right! Because Lewis won pole position and beat him to the first corner after the start! Saying that a swap in their positions at Indianapolis would have won Alonso the title is true. McLaren could have called Lewis in "early" for a pit stop, as Ferrari did to Massa in Brazil, but it wouldn't have been right or fair! And don't point to the example of Ron telling Coulthard to let Hakkinen by that time. Hakkinen had been first on the road, first in qualifying. He'd been victimized by a team mistake, I believe, and having David let him past was a correction of that mistake. Very different from asking Lewis to give up the Indianapolis win after he'd been fastest in qualifying and led the whole race! Ron Dennis did it RIGHT this year, and if it hadn't been for Stepney and Lewis' damned 30 seconds of neutral, he'd have been celebrating both championships, and rightly so! I don't care what anyone else says.

:mad: :D :p

[snowy]

Don't you stick your tongue out at me, you agent provocateur!

[washington96]

Great post, Washington. You took my bait and answered it in exactly the way I would have

Oooh, I feel so used and dirty........ I think I like it!

But seriously if Hamilton and let Alonso past at Indianapolis then who knows what would have happened. China would have been a different race for a start as McLaren would not have been so damn defensive. So saying that one race would have given Fernando the championship is just lazy reporting at best and just plain dumb at worst.

As for Hakkinen and Coulthard, didn't they come to some arrangement that whoever got to the first corner at a certain race would then go on as the number one driver? I can't remember the year or the race (late nineties,) but I know it was early on in the season. If Ron favoured Mika then so what? Does that mean that Mika had a faster car? No it doesn't, it just means Ron preferred the company of Mika over David.

Could just be a bit of sour grapes on Coulthards part. He never really performed at McLaren especially when it came to qualifying and you can't say his career has set the world of F1 alight since he left.

[rasfigjohn]

Hamilton on Alonso in his upcoming biography:

he breakdown of the relationship between McLaren's drivers in 2007 was a gradual process, Lewis Hamilton reveals in his upcoming biography, 'My Story'. In an extract published by The Sun newspaper, the 22-year-old rookie said Fernando Alonso introduced himself to Hamilton and his father in a hotel in Turkey late last year.
"He came by and said, "'Hello, I'm Fernando'," Hamilton, then a GP2 driver, said.
"He was the world champion, he was fighting to win the title for a second time. It really surprised me he had the time to say hello. I was quite impressed with that."
But the Briton speculates that Alonso, months later, took exception to being pushed so hard at McLaren by a rookie.
"I like and admire Fernando, so I was sad and disappointed that, for whatever reason, our relationship did not improve," he added.
"But it was not for lack of trying."
Hamilton said Alonso also failed to "build any bond" with his Woking based colleagues, beginning with failing to turn up for a pre-season team training week.
"I thought Fernando would be the one trying to set me an example and show me what to do, not the other way around," he continued.
He said team boss Ron Dennis encouraged Hamilton to try "extra hard" to make the Spaniard feel welcome.
"Fernando is very quiet," Hamilton said, revealing that he tried building their relationship by playing computer games in Alonso's motor home room.
But by the US Grand Prix in June, Alonso had started to voice his suspicion that Dennis was favouring Hamilton.
And Hamilton added, "After the French Grand Prix someone told me Fernando, who finished seventh, said he was happy the Ferraris had beaten me so I did not take maximum points."
Their relationship then fully imploded in Hungary, when Hamilton refused a team instruction and Alonso famously got revenge by holding up his teammate in a qualifying pit stop.
"It was like my worst nightmare," Hamilton said, insisting that he "did not want to fall out with Fernando" as Alonso stopped talking to him.
"I think I am easy to get on with," he argued. "I do not hold grudges but I felt that if he did not want to speak or to have a decent working relationship, that was up to him."
In Turkey they met at the Conrad hotel for peace talks, but Hamilton says he eventually tired of feeling like his efforts to improve their relationship were not being matched by Alonso.
"In the end, I told Ron, 'I tried to speak to him, but I am not going to go out of my way and defocus myself to make him happy. I'm going to focus on my dream'."
"Then, at Spa-Francorchamps, Fernando ran me wide and off the circuit. From then on it was clear anything could happen. If he wanted to be as aggressive, so could I," Hamilton said.
He added, "It was not healthy, but I felt I could be strong and aggressive without taking any unnecessary risks. It was a real pity that things had come to this."
Hamilton's book will be released on November 5

http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/NewsPics/0,,1369-1375_2212296,00.html

[GEISHA]

Hamilton on Alonso in his upcoming biography:
I don't think such stories tell us something new.
In an human world it is normal that relationships can go sour sooner than you can say knife.
Look at yourself, look at your friends, colleagues, your marriage and it will tell you that million of particals can make any relationship land on the cliffs or even worse.
Suppose you have a well organized working environment, there is co-operation, people respect eachother, until a new boss comes in, or maybe if you are appointed to be the new boss and people around you start to see things differently.
Suppose your colleague gets promotion and you, thinking you worked harder, doing better than him or her, deserving it more, get nothing.
Well that will slow you down.
Those who are your friends today will hate you tomorrow, or work against you.

In such a volatile world as F1 with its billion dollar fundings and self crowned princes it is highly explosive.
We have seen this before we see it now and we will see it tomorrow.
And the usual suspect press around it will put a magnifier over it and spray the world with sewage.

If the marriage between Alonso and McLaren and or Hamilton is not a lucky one, so be it, no big deal.
Things will settle itself either one way or another, here or elsewhere.
Would you be surprised when the relationship between L. and A. Hamilton comes to an end?
Not me, only a matter of circumstances and time.

And where a marriage goes wrong there are always two at fault, at least.

[Dzul]

Hamilton on Alonso in his upcoming biography:

A Biography at 22 ?!! :eek::eek::eek: LMAO kid!!! :roflmao::roflmao:
I'd call it "My Racing Career... so far." Accurate.

[rasfigjohn]

A Biography at 22 ?!! :eek::eek::eek: LMAO kid!!! :roflmao::roflmao:
I'd call it "My Racing Career... so far." Accurate.

Yes... the book is called "my story"... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lewis-Hamilton-My-Story/dp/0007270054
He should have added "so far"...
It's a bit early for such a book even if I think he lived in 22 years as many lives as some 70 year old people.
But I don't see how much reflection he can have on his life at 22...
I guess it was just to pay the new house in Switzerland....

[Wee Scot]

Suppose your colleague gets promotion and you, thinking you worked harder, doing better than him or her, deserving it more, get nothing.
Well that will slow you down.
Yes, take Nigel Stepney, for example...

What I find despicable is that Alonso was not man enough to face Hamilton's challenge directly, as a man and as a racer, instead whining about not being given the deferential and preferential treatment he thought he was "due" by being the reigning double WC. Somewhere recently (I've looked but can't find it...) Jackie Stewart related how Graham Hill accepted his young teammate's faster pace in 1965 with dignity and good sportsmanship, despite himself having lost out on the previous year's title by a single point. Of course, Hill had been the team leader at BRM for several years, winning the driving championship for them in 1962 and also finishing second in points in 1963, so he no reason to suspect there was a "plot" against him within the team...

[GEISHA]

What I find despicable is that Alonso was not man enough to face Hamilton's challenge directly

Stricktly personal for me there is no Alonso vs. Hamilton sec.
I think the picture is much broader than that alone, it goes much further.
And I think that Alonso was not direct fighting against Hamilton in person he was apparently fighting his (maybe rightful) position within the team.
And I fear the team as a whole has shown a questionable picture not only towards and amongst eachother but also to the F1 world at large.
Neither Dennis, Hamilton c.s. and Alonso could muster any wisdom.

For Alonso an unhappy marriage, that can happen in the best of families with dire results. I won't despise anyone for that.
He had his first talks with Dennis in 2005 and expected to be teamed with
Montoya, a superfast but erratic driver sometimes.
That would have painted another team picture. And I bet Montoya is not only superfast he is also pretty outspoken and shows no fear.
Whether that would have been the happiest of marriages, no one will ever know.

But like I meant to say before, marriages can go sour in no time.
Other examples go even further like Lauda/Reutemann, Jones/Reutemann (leaving the championship to Piquet) and Villeneuve/Pironi. Their behaviour towards eachother was not of the McLaren kind it was more like a war.
The latter case drove the highly loved and respected Villeneuve exactly up the wall and into his premature death I suppose.
Luckily both McLaren drivers are still alive.

[GEISHA]

Of course, Hill had been the team leader at BRM for several years

Graham was an extraordinarily man, and he had the wisdom and dignity which present day F1 drivers will never know of. Even amongst his peers Graham was something special.
It also says something about his teammate J.Y.S.
Jackie did not go to murky places to slander his teammate and Graham
himself was far above that.
Those were the days of low paid gentleman drivers, although...

When Jim Clark entered the Lotus F1 he found himself facing Innes Ireland, a very experienced driver then, one who learned Jimmy a trick or two at Charterhall where it really began for Jimmy.
Innes won the first and only GP for Lotus that year, the US GP(the big prize).
But Innes relates that when Jimmy came into the team he caught Jimmy and Colin Chapman is all kinds of sneaky huddles leaving him totally in the cold if not oblivious annihilated.
A disgruntled Innes, who never really got over this, felt he was no longer no. 1, not even no. 2 in the team, let alone equally treated, he had become invisible and left the team at the end of the year.

Something for Ron Dennis to learn from perhaps?
Suppose young Rosberg teams up with Hamilton, will both characters merge into a never ending friendship. If young Rosberg has any liking to his Nordic father will he try to drive Hamilton into the ground?. Or will young Rosberg say hey that is nice I am allowed to stand in Lewis's shadow.

[washington96]

And I think that Alonso was not direct fighting against Hamilton in person he was apparently fighting his (maybe rightful) position within the team.

I think it would have been made pretty clear to him that he would not have number one status at McLaren when he was given his contract. What he did get was a hell of a lot more money than Hamilton did to reflect his previous standing in F1. The only reason Alonso expected to get preferential treatment over Hamilton was because Alonso's ego was telling himself that. Shame he couldn't have tried to do something about it on the track instead of whining about it in the press.

Something for Ron Dennis to learn from perhaps?

The only thing Ron needs to learn this year is how to crack down on his drivers a lot earlier when they start bitching and moaning.

Or will young Rosberg say hey that is nice I am allowed to stand in Lewis's shadow.

If he can perform on the track he won't have too.

And I fear the team as a whole has shown a questionable picture not only towards and amongst eachother but also to the F1 world at large.

Based on? I find it strange that you keep singling out McLaren as the bad boys of F1, but you never mention the bunch of bumbling fools that are the FIA? I see a team that was attacked from the inside ie Coughlan receiving the Ferrari documents and attacked from the outside from the FIA who may as well set up a stall in the McLaren motorhome as they seem determined to manage the McLaren team themselves this year.

McLaren have done nothing in the past that indicates that they would do such a thing as steal documents from another team. In fact they get on my nerves for going to the FIA every five minutes to make sure everybody else is playing by the rules.

We still don't know why Stepney and Coughlan got together and what they were planning with the information that they had. That is something we will have to wait until the investigation is over for. If it turns out that Ron and the rest of McLaren knew about and acted on the information from Ferrari then they will get what they deserve. Until then they are innocent until proven guilty.

[GEISHA]

I find it strange that you keep singling out McLaren as the bad boys of F1,

Hi Washington,
Indeed I have a focus on McLaren. For me they are no bad boys at all but their dealings this year raised a whole lot of questions.
The number of incidents inside the team (in total) as well as from
to outside haven't done the team any good in my opinion.
That makes them stand out from the crowd this year.

My main point is that a team like McLaren, being around for so many years, having employed quite a number of drivers of notable reputation, but also those with sometimes tricky and volatile characters, should have been able to keep proceedings (more) in order.
They must at least have a concept of what it takes to do that.
Also, knowing in what kind of world (FIA for instance) they are living in (for many years) they should have kept the backdoor shut.
Edit: Still the backdoor appears to be wide open from what I read recently.

I do not expect this team to be 100% perfect but I do expect them
to enforce safeguards within their organization, that will prevent them to become victim of whatever one might think of.
For instance safe from "invisible" crimes like the spy gate, for which they were fined an ridiculous amount of money (why not 75mm or 200mm).
McLaren stands accused of having stolen an idea?? Are they guilty?? Really??

Sports and business all over the world are in the limelight, of spying, internal fraud, illegal copying, illegal betting, and so on.
I may hope McLaren Mercedes realises this too.

An organization with such fundings, achievements, commercial and financial interests, should be able to cope with any threat in such
a matter that they can prove and justify that they have done all within their power to prevent that. And then still things will go wrong, but there is more control and risk management.
That goes for Ron Dennis at the top of the McLaren totempole upto the guy at the bottom sweeping the garage floor.
So I would say tighten up your organization, especially your public relations and get your drivers straight.
I hate to demote the achievements of Kimi but McLaren should have won both the drivers and constructors title this year, hands down.
They had it all but some chaos must have ruled and it slipped away.
And it slipped away big time when they could almost smell victory, for all the world to see, for crying out loud.
Well foregive me being harsh or critical towards McLaren but in trying to stay reasonable I think they deserve that flak.
Have a nice day.:up:

[washington96]

Hi Geisha,

I do not expect this team to be 100% perfect but I do expect them
to enforce safeguards within their organization, that will prevent them to become victim of whatever one might think of. For instance safe from "invisible" crimes like the spy gate

You could say the same thing about Ferrari. It was their employee after all who actually stole the information to give to McLaren.

Yes, you are right in that McLaren should have wrapped up both titles quite easily this season and they certainly dropped the ball in the drivers championship, but that does not bring the sport into disrepute. It just shows that the team got distracted by all the outside influence. A fact clearly evident in the last two races when they acted like a new team with no idea of strategy or tactics.

And I fear the team as a whole has shown a questionable picture not only towards and amongst each other but also to the F1 world at large.

This is the part I don't get? If it turns out that they knew about the Ferrari information and used it then yes they have damaged F1, but if they didn't and it was only a few individuals in the team that knew then what have they done to show a questionable picture of F1?

No organisation is 100% safe from such actions. Especially in the world of big business of which F1 certainly is. With so many employees there is just no way to totally safeguard against such incidents. This could have happened to any team, but as we know this information would only really be useful to McLaren as the other teams aren't currently competative enough for it to make a difference.

My only question about their actions was why wasn't Del a Rosa and Alonso suspended the moment Ron found out about the e-mails being sent between the two drivers? Coughlan was suspended straight away so why not everybody who was involved? If I was running McLaren I would want to distance myself as far away from that information as possible, so why didn't they? Why was the FIA so keen to protect Alonso from any backlash from the spygate row when it was clear that he was using the information that Pedro was giving him about the 'red car'? I know he had immunity from the FIA, but McLaren could have done what they wanted with him.

Until the current investigation into the matter is resolved we don't know exactly what happened. Hopefully when the investigation is finished we will have a clearer picture of what took place.

Have a nice day yourself :up: :)

[rasfigjohn]

"Peter Stone" says he could have raced like Hamilton

could have matched Hamilton says tester
Posted 01 November 2007 at 08:33 GMT
Pedro de la Rosa has joined Max Mosley in playing down the significance of Lewis Hamilton's rookie performance in 2007.
The Spaniard, who is the primary test and reserve driver at McLaren, praised Hamilton's widely lauded run to second place this season but observed that the 22-year-old "had the best tools" at his disposal to do so.
FIA president Mosley on Wednesday said there has recently been "a tendency to exaggerate" Hamilton's impact on Formula One, adding that "there is always somebody new" to motivate sporting hype.
De la Rosa, meanwhile, told Spain's Radio Marca that while Hamilton "is a great driver", he thinks he also "could have done just as well" with the Mercedes-powered MP4-22.
The 36-year-old also said he doesn't know "anything about the future" of his countryman Fernando Alonso at the Woking team.

http://www.homeofsport.com/f1/news/item.aspx?id=20579

[Wee Scot]

De la Rosa, meanwhile, told Spain's Radio Marca that while Hamilton "is a great driver", he thinks he also "could have done just as well" with the Mercedes-powered MP4-22.


:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

[GEISHA]

You could say the same thing about Ferrari.

Well a lot can be said of Ferrari. Based upon a long history.
My gut feeling, argubly the darker side of me, whispers (dangerous) that Ferrari always seems get away with murder whilst others are hanged for
a minor infridgement.
Right now the whole of the Ferraristi clan will haul me over the coals, but I will reciprocate by saying that I am straighter than a priest and I have been to church every Sunday since the day I was born, without fail:p:D

[Kongo]

You could say the same thing about Ferrari.

Well a lot can be said of Ferrari. Based upon a long history.
My gut feeling, argubly the darker side of me, whispers (dangerous) that Ferrari always seems get away with murder whilst others are hanged for
a minor infridgement.

100% correct mate...and the rest of the teams too.
You guys, everyone uses other teams data and have done for years. :rolleyes: I've found out too much in my job I know...a bit sickening really.....