I wonder... ( a plea of sorts )

[morning_wood]

GSUK: How much was the development path for RACE 07 determined by user feedback from last year’s iteration?

DS: We do listen to our communities and we do take their feedback into account when starting a new project, but we are often way ahead of them in terms of what we internally would like to have in the game. We just have a better understanding of the process, we know the limitations of the game engine we are using, so even though we might share a wish for a new feature, for example a new game mode or even some sort of new content, it could be that we simply can not get it in the game due to license or technical reasons, and then this ends up on our internal wish list and that is rather long I can tell you.

read between the lines and it says "we listen but do what we think is best anyway"

Funny that interviews with Simbin say they listen to the community for input and ideas. However, due to the ammount of add-ons comming out, and the forum threads here and elsewhere.
I would have to say otherwise, nearly all of them are visual quality fixes, and the clear dissapointment of a genuine cockpit view. Not to mention sounds that could have been got from even the most basic YouTube of a SR3 if not simply visiting a race with these cars. It is simple oversights like this that clearly show that they are NOT listening to the community.

SIMBIN PLEASE LISTEN TO US. READ OUR FORUMS. TRY OUR FILES. PUT OUT COMMUNITY DEMOS AND A SITE TO HELP YOU IN DEVELOPMENT


Q: About physics of the cars, did you work with real datas, perhaps telemetry datas? And did you tested with some real drivers during development? Who are they?

A: We get car data directly from the manufacturers and teams we work with during a production, our Physics Director visits the races and interview drivers and engineers to get an as good as possible understanding of the car in addition to the technical data. We do use telemetry data during the development and test phase of physics creation and all the drivers have been driving with their own cars in the game at the Get Real Centre on selected WTCC events around Europe to get the final “approvals” from the real drivers.

A QUICK REVIEW WILL TELL YOU THE SPECS FOR EVERTHING OTHER THAN ENGINE POWER CURVES AND GEARBOXES ARE TOTAL FANTASY.

I have miles of SR4 data and i will tell you not one spring / damper / camber / toe / cg / weight distrib / brake size etc etc is within 20-50% of what the real settings are, nor are the brake bias and spring f/r ratios even close to what teams run in real life.

[swannyUK]

I’m not surprised by this thread to be honest.

It sounds like they have gone for the “pack as much as possible in” approach to it and get it out before Christmas. In the process missed a lot of stuff that would have made the game better.

After all the hype saying better AI (which was my main niggle with RACE), better physics etc I was lead to believe it was a whole new game. People have said to me that I should make my own mind up before buying games but how can you do that without getting the game?

The demo didn’t help. It says on it something along the lines of “may not represent final product” or whatever. Damn right. The bimmer is completely different in the game lol

So I’m left with having to race an Alfa one day a week with some people for fun races as the AI are exactly the same if not worse now (just try a street race and see what happens on the first corner. Also I don’t think I have had one pass me without me coming off the track :S This is in the middle of the pack not going as fast as them)

People are saying that you cant complain about a game that cost $20 (cost me 25 odd quid off steam) but £25 for me is quite a bit of money

How is it that a UKTOUR GTR2 mod that doesnt work 100% (no brake lights on some cars etc) has better AI on it than the brand spanking new game that simbin has to offer?

Sadly i think the fact that the demand for Arcade style games (pick up the controller, pick one of a millon cars and go on one of a millon tracks) is bigger and appeals to more people than the demand for sims with accurate handling but with fewer choices. It might just be sucking simbin in slightly

[[RSms]RS]

And why shouldn't it suck them in? They are a company that are here to make money, If they made games strictly with the hardcore simmer in mind they would make no money at all. I can see from your posts elsewhere swanny that you do not like the game (do you just cut and paste this same message), well maybe it's not for everyone but it provides very close racing, and I agree about the AI but who wants to race them when you can race real people ? Maybe the setups for the cars are not exactly the same as in real life but I would like to see the complaints from everyone if you found the cars impossible to drive, they dumb down the setups so they can be driven by anyone, then you adjust them to how you want.

As for the game including everything you could possibly want, isn't that what the community is for, they would all have nothing to do if they did.

I think they have the right idea by not listening to most of the community as it always seems like people are never happy whatever they do, what one person wants is what another doesn't.

I personally do not like rFactor but instead of moaning about it all the time I just don't drive it, I still bought it and I can understand why people like it but it's not for me.

Remember you didn't have to buy it, they did not come around to your house hold a gun to your head and make you.

Yes for some £25 may be a lot but even if you get a couple of days of enjoyment out of it that is worth the money. You find me something you can do for that time for £25.

Best way is if you don't like then don't play it and stop posting in every thread with the same message.

[David Wright]

While I agree that Simbin have a tendancy to shoot themselves in the foot, at least with some sections of the community, there are quite a few examples where it would seem they have listened.

For example, a common complaint from the days of GTR through GTL and GTR2 was that people didn't like the CD/DVD based copy protection, and didn't like the staggered release around the world. Steam is the perfect solution to these complaints, but with RACE poor old Simbin found that there is also a section of the community which doesn't like Steam. So with RACE 07 you now have the option of Securom.

One thing the GTL community has asked for was official add-ons and again, Simbin have dipped a toe in the water with the Caterham add-on. There is also a rumour that RACE 07 will have an official add-on.

AI in multiplayer has been a common request (albeit from a minority) for years and RACE added this.

Add-on tracks were not possible with RACE but are possible with RACE 07. Some have wanted uploadable skins for on-line racing and again this has been added to RACE 07.

The addition of other classes to RACE 07 is clearly an attempt to broaden the appeal of the game and to make it worth those who bought RACE buying RACE 07. In the good old days of EAs F1 and NASCAR series and Sierra's NASCAR series, just having the current series was enough for people to buy the next edition, but the WTCC series just doesn't have the same pull IMO and just putting the 07 WTCC cars in would not have been enough. As [RSms]RS says, if they don't sell enough copies of RACE 07 then they will go bust.

I have miles of SR4 data and i will tell you not one spring / damper / camber / toe / cg / weight distrib / brake size etc etc is within 20-50% of what the real settings are, nor are the brake bias and spring f/r ratios even close to what teams run in real life.

Settings like spring / damper / camber / toe are adjustable. Are you really telling me that the RL values of camber don't lie in the range 0 to -5 degrees?

[morning_wood]

notes from team rough data test run #2:
F / R
Springs 400# 600#
Ride Height 2 3/8" 2.75"
Camber -2½° to -3½°
Toe 1/16 (out, total) 1/16 (in, total)

Driving Impressions:
After feeling like the car could still go stiffer and still be "biting" well,
went to 400/550 from 350/450. Even better balance-wise, and front-end response,
even before 0-droop. However, even with 20x7.5 fronts, we still went to nearly
3/4" of rake for Steve at the club National to dial out some understeer.


Simbin:
SpringBasedAntiSway=1 //<--- wrong
LeftCasterRange=(9.0, 0.0, 0) // NO ADJUSTABLE
LeftCasterSetting=0

CamberRange=(-5.0, 0.1, 51) // static 3.5
CamberSetting=15
SpringRange=(70000.0, 1000.0, 51)
SpringSetting=30

-------------------------------
Real ( TRANSLATED):
SpringBasedAntiSway=0
LeftCasterRange=(-2.0, 0.1, 81) // front-left caster
LeftCasterSetting=40

CamberRange=(-4.0, 0.1, 40) // static -3.5
CamberSetting=5
SpringRange=(50050.594, 4378.162, 21)
SpringSetting=4


you will have to excuse me, cambers are similar... but I wont continue...

[[RSms]RS]

Car setups are done on a track by track basis and also are very dependent on the drivers style, so what one driver likes another doesn't.

I can understand what you are saying if something can be adjusted for real but not in the game then you have a point but they have to draw the line somewhere, how many setup up options should there be before it becomes to complicated for most, it is a game as well remember, next it will be checking oil levels and valve clearances, whilst may be interesting to a few would not sell a game.

Most people who buy games buy them to have fun for the most part so including every little detail for a few people would be a waste of time and money IMO.

[swannyUK]

RS;168210']I can see from your posts elsewhere swanny that you do not like the game (do you just cut and paste this same message)

I agree about the AI but who wants to race them when you can race real people ?


Remember you didn't have to buy it, they did not come around to your house hold a gun to your head and make you.

Best way is if you don't like then don't play it and stop posting in every thread with the same message.

First off i would love to comment all of the time on the fantastic tracks, scenery and attention to detail around brands hatch and some of the better things in race07 and other simibn titles (GTL...driving heaven) but as most of the stuff in RACE07 feels like it's been bolted on to the original race then i'm more likely to pick up on the things that feel a bit "iffy". Lets face it, it gets people writing more anyway ;)

I really don't copy and paste stuff and then type random rants into any old thread. I think i have posted in 3 threads (one of my own included) all of which are talking about niggles with the game.
If a thread reads that there is something wrong with the game then i will put in my findings. Sure you might not feel the same and everyone has an opinion that they can express.

If you read my earlier post i said that i have to race with some friends online to get any action. This is ONE night a week as we cant race on any other nights. Why should i be left with having to race online once a week when the game was being sold with brilliant AI?

They might not have come around to my house with a gun to my head but you buy simbin games because it's a simbin title and you expect top notch. It's almost like an impulse buy. Bunched with a lot of advertising that bombards you with how fantastic the game is + being a huge WTCC fan they might as well have come around with a gun lol

At the end of the day i've moved to an Alfa and i'm trying to get to grips with the feel of that. Its a bugger moving from rear wheel drive to front wheel drive :(. I will most likely have forgotten about race by next week when i am back racing minis on GTL but for now i'm trying to look forward to payday when my bank balance returns back to a good ammount :D

[Mogget]

I agree about the AI but who wants to race them when you can race real people ?

When your internet connection is down ? When there aren't enough people racing online ? When you don't want to be slammed off the track at the first corner by a wrecker ?

[[RSms]RS]

@Mogget - I agree with you on the public front but unfortunately because you will get drivers at different levels it is only to be expected (Out braking themselves or not driving within their limits etc) we run a public server and if we are on it and drivers are obviously wrecking they are banned so look out for our servers. We are opting now for keeping the servers open to the public and drivers who drive with care and attention (Not necessarily fast) will be given a password for when the server is closed so they can be sure of some fair online racing, anyone interested let me know.

Also how intelligent can the AI be with current hardware 25 AI drivers making decisions with the speed of a human brain, if you have a computer that is capable of this then I can understand your disappointment.

If I can't get online I race another sim or I practice, I would never expect the AI to be that good, another example of this is when you make a mistake would you expect to get punted off the track like in real life, I sure people would moan about that too. I think that is why the AI are a bit timid in those situations.

@Swanny - I can see that the swap from rear to front wheel drive cars must be difficult when you can't wait to get back to driving minis in GTL ;) But I agree they are different.

[swannyUK]

Lol yeh maybe i should explain that one.

In my opinion (not saying its right but still) going from rear wheel drive to front wheel drive is harder than front wheel drive to rear wheel.

From BMW to Alfa on race is quite difficult. The alfa is a bit of a pig to drive to start off with but its the only one that feels as alive as the BMW for me. Minis to Alfas is easy on GTL. They are both sling it into the corner style. On RACE and RACE07 it's a bit more tricky. I guess this is where the handling of the cars comes into it and what i prefer.

I tried around monza in the alfa on RACE07 but can't get the chicanes right. The back end just steps out after the first apex. The Bimmer on the first RACE skipped through no probem.

Add the very sensitive cut tracks around there and i've got a handful. Might have to adjust my lines i think

[darock]

Yeah, the AI have some really screwed deals. Stacking up on standing starts is really lame. And the brakechecking they do is too.

But did you ever run TOCA? It was a blast but you had to deal with worse. And the tracks didn't have bumps where the real ones did, they had ejection ramps there.

Yeah, Simbin needs to work on the AI. Maybe that's the next big release. And I'll buy that one when it hits. Most of their stuff has been a favorite at the time. I know I like a sim when I realize I'm trying to decide what skin I want to do for my car. And I got a couple I want already.

[swannyUK]

How much fun was that first Toca though? I got into sim racing a few years ago. Up until then the first and second TOCA was god like. The first true touring car game i played :O I was hooked. I can remember renting it out from blockbusters and playing it over and over on my sisters playstation (when she let me grrr)

You got bashed about quite a bit but i like that. It's what the BTCC was all about.

Maybe simbin have watched how the WTCC race but been a bit cautious . It isnt as aggresive as the BTCC but there is still alot of racing going on along with bumps and scrapes.

I'm sure if they did a BTCC game the AI would be ready for war

[darock]

It's interesting to hear the comparison of the Radical between the sim and RL, but having written more than a couple lines of code I would suggest something..........

R07 is based on the WTCC. And from the amount I've flogged those cars, I'd be surprised if they weren't spot on. And the numbers would match up to RL. It's after all what's going to sell the product. And would have had the majority of manpower working on it.

As it has happened, I twiddled with a Radical for 5 minutes the other night. And don't expect to mess with them again until far in the future. I have no idea if they handled correctly or not, and certainly have no idea if the numbers you see in the garage are correct. Truth is, if they affect the car's handling appropriately from high value to low value, I can't see that having wrong numbers that work right would bother anyone who wasn't a SR4 insider.

I raced N2K3 with NASCAR team members and painted cars and trucks for them, and got numbers from them to compare RL to the sim. Guess what. They didn't give a rats butt that everything that was different was different. Most of them also drove Saturday nights in totally different cars and they handled every different class. Some of 'em actually had a saying, "in the race, you gotta drive what's under you". It fits.

[PhilH959]

........Most of them also drove Saturday nights in totally different cars and they handled every different class. Some of 'em actually had a saying, "in the race, you gotta drive what's under you". It fits.

Well said...that is the "crux of the biscuit", and this debate can and will go on. I buy games to have fun. A "sim" is what it is...a simulator. Therefore it can not be real. The only way to get real, is to drive real cars!. And if they did incorporate all of the real settings and tweaks, it would be too much to grasp, and probably 90% couldn't drive it.
To make money Simbin and other companies aim the product at the "mainstream" gamer. It has to be friendly / entertaining enough, to grab your attention, and challenging enough, to make you want to do better, learn more. In that light, I think Simbin has done a pretty good job. Bottom line.....if you dont' like it, sell it and get something else.

There is no need to moan over what they coulda, woulda, shoulda, done.
If you want a game done to perfection.....make it. And then see how much in sales you make. Bet it won't be much, as it will appeal to a very narrow group of gamers. JMHO.

Phil

[swannyUK]

Bottom line.....if you dont' like it, sell it and get something else.Phil

Normally i would :p

But seeing as tho i got it off steam then to do that i have to sell my steam account :roflmao:

Thats probably one of the things i didnt think about. Having said that though, using steam to load the game is better than messing with disks.