Thoughts about the hotlap rules.

[darock]

Posted within the "Post bad hotlaps here" thread:



I understand that rules are rules.

In this case, the greenish surface is simply part of the circuit. I could understand when "driving though an area" cuts the circuit, but on Brand Hatch, it's simply an "extension" to the tarmac...


Pretty upset now.


IMO, I see this "hot lap" section as useless.

Why? Because you practice to get better. The ultimate goal is to apply all that practice racing the game. If the rules are slowing you down, then the rules must be revised. If I race by these rules, I will get passed by 90% of the field because I will not be using part of the circuit considered as "legal" by the game.

That renders this section useless in my mind.

The above was in reference to a hotlap at Brands Hatch where the car went over the hill at the 1st turn and through the middle of the runoff area outside the red&white kerb.

Any thoughts on the issue?

[darock]

The above was posted in the "Bad laps in hotlaps.... report here" thread.

We'd like to keep that thread for reporting bad hotlaps. So if you've got something you'd like to discuss about hotlaps other than to report a bad one, it'd be good to start a thread for the idea out here where it won't be interspersed with bad lap reports, and won't mess up the bad lap reports.

[Gaiajohan]

Well to my opinion there should've been gravel or grass diretly next to the track instead of runoff areas. Those run off areas don't belong to the track, so shouldn't be used like it.

[darock]

I saw a BTCC race on the SPEED TV channel a few years back, and a couple of cars shunted each other over the kerbs. One of them got no penalty and the marshalls nailed the other car. The car that caused the shunt was the one that was penalized for advancing position off track or somesuch (I can speak a little Australian, but not good at British. ;)

[SuperCouilles]

Well to my opinion there should've been gravel or grass diretly next to the track instead of runoff areas. Those run off areas don't belong to the track, so shouldn't be used like it.

"There should be"?

What's up with that?
There's none. The game doesn't give you penalty if you run un it.

While we're at it, there shouldn't be the "gray brickley" runoff on the first corner at Zandoort.


A "cut", IMM, should remove from the distance. Not add to it...

[SuperCouilles]

I saw a BTCC race on the SPEED TV channel a few years back [...] The car that caused the shunt was the one that was penalized for advancing position off track or somesuch (I can speak a little Australian, but not good at British. ;)


Hummm... If you look at Brand '06, that runoff wasn't huge as it it, now, in the '07 version.

An accident was involved in the story. This may have added to the marshall's judgment.

[Gaiajohan]

"There should be"?

What's up with that?
There's none. The game doesn't give you penalty if you run un it.

While we're at it, there shouldn't be the "gray brickley" runoff on the first corner at Zandoort.


A "cut", IMM, should remove from the distance. Not add to it...

Oh, have a look at this?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ghe8q0UOtG8 For sure on the end of the corner there's a small runoff.

But to my opinion there shouldn't be runoffs on tracks. Not in real life, that's what i meant.

[darock]

The reason tracks put kerbs around their tracks is to define the track to be driven on. The bricks or pavement outside the track is usually there to make a runoff less dangerous for the driver who drops a wheel or 2 over the kerbs. And to make track upkeep easier for the track operator.

The legal racing surface at Brands Hatch for RL is on the track and the red/white kerbs. If they wanted racing surface beyond where the kerbs are, they would have moved the kerbs and paved out to them. In this case, to the other side of the paved runoff area next to the gravel safety trap.

They don't run Arena Big Foot events there. They race automobiles that're designed to run on roads. Not off-road cars.

[darock]

An accident was involved in the story. This may have added to the marshall's judgment.

Absolutely. Of course it did.

And the accident was why one car was NOT penalized. Because it had been forced into that area and not done it to advance it's position or reduce it's lap time.

Lots of tracks have penalty areas. They most often mark them with red/white kerbs. And going into them to reduce your lap time is one thing that nails you with a penalty.

[darock]

But to my opinion there shouldn't be runoffs on tracks. Not in real life, that's what i meant.

I sort of agree with you except that all the Interstate super-highways around here have paved shoulders. Some are huge. And if a highway cop sees you hauling ass through one of them, your butt is in big trouble. So if racing is supposed to mimic real life, then real life has runoffs, so why not have them around race tracks.

In actual practice, the runoffs are put where they are to do two things. One is to make track upkeep easier and cheaper. The other is to reduce the danger to the drivers. So I guess I don't mind them around road courses.

[xanaxkamikaze]

Oh, have a look at this?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ghe8q0UOtG8 For sure on the end of the corner there's a small runoff.

But to my opinion there shouldn't be runoffs on tracks. Not in real life, that's what i meant.

So you are being retroactive. You don't want run-offs because none of the OLD hardcore racers never had any. So you want the NEW racers to wreck their cars every time they leave the track by having no run-offs.

I don't like seeing people wreck so run-offs are fine by me. :sherlock:

[Gaiajohan]

So you are being retroactive. You don't want run-offs because none of the OLD hardcore racers never had any. So you want the NEW racers to wreck their cars every time they leave the track by having no run-offs.

I don't like seeing people wreck so run-offs are fine by me. :sherlock:

I don't want it because the drivers are less feared to go to the limit. Lower fear means more risks, more mistakes, and those mistakes aren't a punishment because of those runoff areas.

Beause of those runoffs they can better get away with a mistake, and that shouldn't be the case imho.

[SuperCouilles]

Using a fence for cornering, does that count? Let’s say, at Macao, you just tip side of the fence after the very long straight. In reality, that should damage the car way more than in the game. So, tipping shouldn’t be accepted.

If I run off the first straight @ Zandoort and I put my 4 tyres on the grey blocks, I don’t consider it as “track cutting”. Neither does the game as I NEVER WAS warned about doing this. Though, I will consider that you’re cutting the track if you go straight instead of taking the last curb of Magny Cours.


If I was trying to determine “cutting”, I’d say this:

a. If the track length gets shorted by doing this, then you’re cutting the track.
b. If the game happens to warn you, then you’re cutting the track. If it EVER has warned you before while doing that same move, then you cutting the track. If the game never, ever, warned you or any other pilot while doing the move, then you’re not cutting. True that game’s bug should be taken into consideration here…
c. Moves based upon luck and where we cannot predict the result is cutting (I’m not expressing myself correctly here – going through the grass or sand, using a fence to turn – anything that can help you and has a “high risk of usability” should be banned.)
Most importantly:
d. There’s should be an interpretation of the rules at all time. If you see that the pilot doing what it’s supposed to do (going fast), putting the 4 tyres on the grass for 0.005 seconds while trying to get back on the track and where the car's vectors let you think that this what should normally happen, then you may accept the lap as valid.

The problem I have with all of this is that it gets fairly complicated to determine if the lap is valid. It’s a matter of interpretation and because of this, leaves the door open for injustice: "Why his moves where accepted and not mine?" You could name a comity or something… But remember this: In all case, you're overruling the game's AI. The game accepted the lap as valid, you overruled it. So, nothing you’re not already doing, isn’t? This all fine with me as I have the choice of participating by adhering to the rules, or not.

As sad as I am, in my case, I will decline the opportunity.

These rules are slowing me down.
I know I’m within the limit of “acceptation” because the game never warned me once.

After you went – like I did – for MORE than 100 laps chasing the goal of hitting sub 0.49.849 on Brand Hatch Indy, you get really depressed to see that someone overruled the game’s own rules. Therefore, I cannot thrust a system where every time I’ll hit a run off, I’ll be feared that the lap doesn’t count. At least, you’re advised on spot when the game decides it’s not alright to do so.


I’m sad because I like this community. I also like to run against .TA because it forces me to be (and to get) better. It fixes me goals and that's cool. But if I have to adhere somewhere else to upload my (valid) times, well... be it.

[PhilH959]

I think that too much interpretation is needed if you don't stick to the rles already in place. I the curbing is there, then anything past it is out of bounds. Same for runoff's. The only way to keep it fair is to keep two wheels inside the racing surface at all times. We use that in our league for qualy and race sessions, as it is easy to see when some one consistently "cuts" to make faster lap times.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you change the rules you will opening it up for debate.

Phil

[darock]

Using a fence for cornering, does that count? Let’s say, at Macao, you just tip side of the fence after the very long straight. In reality, that should damage the car way more than in the game. So, tipping shouldn’t be accepted.



You want to know what is legal and what isn't, read the rules. The only one that applies to driving is the wheels on the track one.

And it is there because GTR2 and RACE07 and all the predecessors came with tracks that allowed ridiculous cutting in places. It was a mistake by the codies who created the tracks, but still allowed driving directly through places that would bring out an instant black flag in real life.

The sim racing community has faced this deal since forever. There have always been track where someone found a way to drive around a fence or over a haybale and cut time off their lap. It was neither in the spirit of simulation nor sportsmanship.

Since the tracks are nicely defined by pavement and kerbs, that works excellently well.

It beats taking a screenshot of something you can create by editing the career file.

Take a look at the GTR2 hotlaps lists. Those people are having an excellent time competing within the rules. Rules aren't for everyone.