possible fix for steering lag

[jagjitmankoo]

hi to all on the forum,
Let me start by saying that I wanted a better mouse to play FPS shooters and was looking at the logitech mx518. Now at this stage without getting to techy, I wanted to overclock from its default polling rate of 125 MHz to approx 500 MHz. Using some know how from the net I overclocked the mouse but also have the option of overclocking all devices on the usb's.
I have overclocked all usb devices to 500Mhz and will let you all know if it makes a difference. Will this make all devices on the usb ports more responsive/accurate, I willl let you know soon.
What do you guys think?
-jag

[Goffik]

Worth a try, but I'm not sure I see why it would make any difference. The problem in Shift isn't anything to do with USB ports, its the game engine.

[jagjitmankoo]

yes, but the issue is with responsiveise and if this helps then fare enough. dont forget why do we overclockk our systems but to get more "juice" from them. like I said I will post back shortly.

[Goffik]

Thanks, but I'm well aware of the concept of overclocking. The point I was making is that the game engine tells the car how to react to the users input, and more importantly, when it should react. Therfore it is my opinion that a fix needs to be in the game engine, and that messing with USB ports will do nothing at all. Of course I could be wrong, so there's no harm in trying.

Oh, and for the record, my wheel is plugged into a USB 1.0 port and I have no noticeable lag. If I'm not mistaken, USB 2.0 is faster and todays controllers are designed for it. If people using USB 2.0 are getting more lag than me, it would suggest that either port settings are meaningless, or that they should be underclocked to 1.0 levels instead. ;)

[MaddmattH]

I think this is more likely to help those experiencing steering/input lag:
http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=907422#post907422
Personally I set it to a value of 1 and it virtually eliminates input lag in any game that can show this problem.

As Shift is a more GPU demanding game than the sims like GTR this problem will be much more apparent here.

[ThomasGocke]

I think this is more likely to help those experiencing steering/input lag:
http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=907422#post907422
Personally I set it to a value of 1 and it virtually eliminates input lag in any game that can show this problem.

As Shift is a more GPU demanding game than the sims like GTR this problem will be much more apparent here.

I too always set pre rendererd frames to 1 after installing a new detonator.
Does anyone know if this setting is only effective when vsync is on?
I tend to think that with vsync off the frame is shown as soon as rendered, so were comes pre rendering in here? But I'm not sure, so if anyone knows better, I would be very pleased to be corrected.

Cheers,
flitzi

ah and btw. I still have bad lag in Shift compared to iRacing or LFS

edit:
I did a quick search and found this:

During the rendering of scenes, the driver usually accepts commands for more than a single frame. This way the GPU doesn't stall the CPU until it's absolutely neccessary.

If the GPU accepts the command for too many frames ahead, additional mouse lag can be introduced, though. That means that there is a very slight delay between the moving of the mouse and the actual reaction on the screen.

Using this setting, you can limit the amount of frames the driver accepts ahead of the currently displayed frame. This should be left at the default value (3) to get the best performance.
You can get a faster reaction on your mouse movements in some games by lowering the limit. This might also cause a loss in framerate, though.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=108602

So it's not related to vsync but too complicated for me to understand what it really does ;)

[MaddmattH]

This should be left at the default value (3) to get the best performance.

Whoever decided that should be shot.

Maybe the reason you still have bad input lag in Shift is your FPS. I found that even with a setting of 1 in games, there is still visible input lag when the FPS goes below 25. Try setting it to 0 (doesn't work for everyone) or lowering graphics settings for a higher FPS.

[djotefsoup]

Yeah, thomas, if you can, could you download and install FRAPS (http://www.fraps.com/) (demo will work fine), go to the "FPS" section, turn on "save detailed benchmark statistics", run a race in Shift, then go to the FRAPS installation folder and tell us what it says in FRAPSLOG.TXT ? If you have an "avg" figure below 30 or so this could explain a great deal.

Frames render ahead should take effect regardless of your Vsync settings. Be aware there are certain things in certain OSs that can force Vsync to remain on even if you've turned it off in a game (and sometimes the driver control panel too!).

You might want to download Rivatuner, and use D3DOverrider to enable triple buffering and see if that helps any.

[ThomasGocke]

Yeah, thomas, if you can, could you download and install FRAPS (http://www.fraps.com/) (demo will work fine), go to the "FPS" section, turn on "save detailed benchmark statistics", run a race in Shift, then go to the FRAPS installation folder and tell us what it says in FRAPSLOG.TXT ? If you have an "avg" figure below 30 or so this could explain a great deal.

Frames render ahead should take effect regardless of your Vsync settings. Be aware there are certain things in certain OSs that can force Vsync to remain on even if you've turned it off in a game (and sometimes the driver control panel too!).

You might want to download Rivatuner, and use D3DOverrider to enable triple buffering and see if that helps any.

I never play games < 60 fps!!!
if you want something to compare: quickrace, no opponents, nürburgring, standing at start with green lights: 108 fps @ 1920x1080 2xAA
still having input lag...

@MaddmattH:
Please show me 1 video where you think there is no input lag, then we might find out if we are talking about the same thing.

[MaddmattH]

@MaddmattH:
Please show me 1 video where you think there is no input lag, then we might find out if we are talking about the same thing.

How is a video supposed to show input lag? Or do you expect me to film myself playing so you can see my wheel? :laugh:
Input lag is a delay between input (steering, buttons ect) and the game responding. I'm sure we're talking about the same thing.
I'm not sure why you have input lag even with that high FPS. Maybe there is some tiny lag you notice but I can't.

Personally I always leave that render ahead/flip queue setting at 1. That seems to reduce input lag without hurting performance for me. Just need to make sure the FPS is above 25 for best results.

[ThomasGocke]

How is a video supposed to show input lag? Or do you expect me to film myself playing so you can see my wheel? :laugh:


Just show me any video, think you must be not the only one with no lag.

You do notice the delay for the steering animation, don't you?
Can't believe you can drive like that...

[acti0n]

OMG Thomas Gocke do you spamming everywhere about your shit Input Lag? Virtualr, EA Forums, Nogrip ...

The Animation IS wrong no Questions but there is NO Input Lag!

If you have this, it's your PC or Wheel Settings ...

[ThomasGocke]

OMG Thomas Gocke do you spamming everywhere about your shit Input Lag? Virtualr, EA Forums, Nogrip ...

The Animation IS wrong no Questions but there is NO Input Lag!

If you have this, it's your PC or Wheel Settings ...

LOL, Simon du n00b, hast rsc und racedepartment vergessen ;)

show me one thing that is reacting before the virtual wheel

[Viper]

Now now, let's all get along...

Grouphug!
http://www.dailypets.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/grouphug1.jpg

[Goffik]

OMG Thomas Gocke do you spamming everywhere about your shit Input Lag? Virtualr, EA Forums, Nogrip ...

The Animation IS wrong no Questions but there is NO Input Lag!

If you have this, it's your PC or Wheel Settings ...

You may as well give up, Acti0n. As you correctly stated, ThomasGocke (aka Flitzi) is just a spammer that enjoys provoking people. Although he has absolutely no proof of the crap he comes out with, he seems to think that everyone else must provide proof for their arguments to be valid. One rule for him, another rule for everyone else. Pathetic.

Best to just ignore him if you want a worthwhile and constructive discussion on anything.

[ThomasGocke]

You may as well give up, Acti0n. As you correctly stated, ThomasGocke (aka Flitzi) is just a spammer that enjoys provoking people. Although he has absolutely no proof of the crap he comes out with, he seems to think that everyone else must provide proof for their arguments to be valid. One rule for him, another rule for everyone else. Pathetic.

Best to just ignore him if you want a worthwhile and constructive discussion on anything.

Come on, if you are trying to tell the people that some things on the screen aren't in sync, you at least should have an idea what it is. But you haven't.
So why are you even pressing the replay button?

I proved that there is delay for the virtual wheel and I proved that nothing on screen is reacting before the virtual wheel.
You just said I'm wrong, you don't have a delay, but you even can't tell me what you are not having.
And I didn't start provoking people, some noobs couldn't handle someone's knowing something better and started flaming. and of course, after a while I got upset when people are saying I'm wrong without even having an idea how they could prove their statement.

[redi]

Are you guys just arguing past each other or what? Seems likeThomasGocke is arguing that animations on screen lag w.r.t. turning the wheel and calls that input lag, while the others argue that even though animations on screen may lag a bit, the actual reaction of the car to wheel input does not lag.

So unless people start talking about the same thing, further discussion is pointless IMHO.

[outlaw22]

It's the wheel animation that's wrong not input lag!

The virtual wheel does not turn anywhere near enough to match my wheel, but as soon as I start to turn my wheel then the virtual wheel turns at exactly the same time.

So I can't see any input lag but I can see a bad animation!

[ThomasGocke]

Are you guys just arguing past each other or what? Seems likeThomasGocke is arguing that animations on screen lag w.r.t. turning the wheel and calls that input lag, while the others argue that even though animations on screen may lag a bit, the actual reaction of the car to wheel input does not lag.

So unless people start talking about the same thing, further discussion is pointless IMHO.

I think they have given up discussing long time ago cause the only thing I hear is flaming, no arguments at all.

I call this input lag, because everything on screen is delayed to my input, and I have proven this.

Simon and Goffik say, that only the virtual wheel is delayed, but car reaction is not. They haven't proven this.
But if they were right, then we would see, that the car would start turning or at least tilting BEFORE the front wheels turn. I think everybody agrees that this would look strange. I think both of them never noticed something like that, nor did anybody else, but they still keep this up or even try to tell me, that my system is poor if it doesn't show this weird behaviour !?!

@outlaw: you can either mod your ingame wheel degrees of rotation (Goffik could help you) or your controller degree of rotation so they both match up.
The delay is still there and of course has nothing to do with the degree of rotation, so what's your point?
(@ Goffik/Simon/Redi: he seems to not even notice that the virtual wheel is delayed, why shouldn't you guys probably not notice the delay for the rest of the car, what definitly is much more difficult??? Ok, I know the answer, he is not an expert like you, if it was there, you would notice...)

But maybe outlaw is right in some way, I'm focussing to much on the virtual steering wheel...
So what about the front wheels? Would you guys be surprised if I told you that those are delayed exactly by the same amount as the virtual steering wheel? And again, nothing on screen is showing any reaction BEFORE the front wheels turn.

[acti0n]

OMG Get a live ...

Seriosly

[ThomasGocke]

Simon/acti0n/sommergemuese, you just prove me right, not one argument, just flaming...

And I really don't know what is wasting life more, modding a buggy game or trying to make everybody aware of the bugs...

[acti0n]

Why do you spent time on this game if you hate it?

And no, I don't want to create evidences - I don't bother about any Lags, I have no problems while driving ...

If you have too much time proof, that you are right (create a movie with your wheel and shift in cockpit with a cam)... you are the only guy who's crying about this mysterios Input Lag .. no one can confirm that ...

[Raikku]

It's true that they should fix that ingame steering wheel animation. It's the biggest single thing which plague this, otherwise ok "Nurburgring hot lapping game".(I only hotlap Nyrb, I don't race or drive other tracks).

EA, fix that wheel, NOW!

[Viper]

Right, I tried nicely and Redi tried nicely but if you insist... :lock:

The topic at hand can still be DISCUSSED but another argument like this is... not advisable.

[ThomasGocke]

You don't think that I'm spending so much time posting about bugs in a game that I hate, do you? Of course not, I like it(at least it's potential) and I already said this several times.

If you don't see that there is NO argument for the virtual wheel being the only thing that is delayed, then this is the point I'm giving up. On my screen everything is in sync, and I think this is how it is supposed to be. If you think it is different on your system, well I don't care anymore, dein pech...

If the patch tomorrow won't fix the delay then you guys really have bad luck, driving the game with a lag as big as the lag for the virtual wheel is more of a boat simulator than a racing game sim. Some day you will hopefully know what I'm talking about.

If there are people reading about this and considering on buying, my advise:
if you are sensitive to input lag, keep away from Shift.

What really scares me, is that even though there are obvious signs for input lag (delayed virtual wheel, delayed front wheels) that are clearly visible for everybody and absolutely no (not a single) sign against lag, many people are having a very militant attitude towards no lag. EVERY single thread about the lag seems to be ending in flame war.
Not to mention that they are encouraging SMS to leave it the way it is.
Well, I guess you guys deserve console ports...

[redi]

...there are obvious signs for input lag (delayed virtual wheel, delayed front wheels) ...
As has been stated before, delayed animation of steering wheel and front wheels is not considered input lag by most people here. Input lag is when the car has a delayed reaction to steering wheel input (i.e. the car really turns later than you would expect). I am not experiencing the latter and cannot be bothered by the first. If you suffer from the latter as well, then that's a pity and strange too, because then it's system-dependent.

[ThomasGocke]

As has been stated before, delayed animation of steering wheel and front wheels is not considered input lag by most people here. Input lag is when the car has a delayed reaction to steering wheel input (i.e. the car really turns later than you would expect). I am not experiencing the latter and cannot be bothered by the first. If you suffer from the latter as well, then that's a pity and strange too, because then it's system-dependent.

so your car turns in BEFORE the front wheels? Ah right...LOL it's my system that show bad performance by showing everything in sync, of course...

Why don't you tell us which part of the car animation is reacting BEFORE the front wheels/virtual wheel?

[Roger]

Maybe something is getting lost in the translation Thomas? I don't see anything in Redi's post that was hard to understand and certainly didn't need that kind of response.

Before the infractions start flying around can everyone calm down - as it looks like the flaming is heading in all directions not just from one person.

[redi]

so your car turns in BEFORE the front wheels? Ah right...LOL it's my system that show bad performance by showing everything in sync, of course...

Why don't you tell us which part of the car animation is reacting BEFORE the front wheels/virtual wheel?

I haven't looked at any steering wheel or front wheel animations, because I don't care about them. I only look at how and when the car turns when I turn the steering wheel in my hands, and I have not noticed any lag between the two.

I only drive in cockpit view, so I only look where the car is heading, i.e. how the scenery outside the front window changes, when I turn the wheel.
I have not seen any lag between turning my steering wheel and the scenery changing direction, so for me there is no input lag the way I define input lag.

I propose to talk about input lag to discuss lag between turning the wheel and the car changing direction, and animation lag to discuss the lag between turning the wheel and the animations of steering wheel and front wheels showing a response.

With those definitions, I do not detect any input lag, and I don't know whether my game suffers from animation lag.

From all of the above it seems to me that Thomas Gocke suffers from both input lag and animation lag, at least when he drives with an outside view camera. It is not clear to me whether he suffers from input lag when he drives with cockpit view.

[acti0n]

I haven't looked at any steering wheel or front wheel animations, because I don't care about them. I only look at how and when the car turns when I turn the steering wheel in my hands, and I have not noticed any lag between the two.

I only drive in cockpit view, so I only look where the car is heading, i.e. how the scenery outside the front window changes, when I turn the wheel.
I have not seen any lag between turning my steering wheel and the scenery changing direction, so for me there is no input lag the way I define input lag.

I propose to talk about input lag to discuss lag between turning the wheel and the car changing direction, and animation lag to discuss the lag between turning the wheel and the animations of steering wheel and front wheels showing a response.

With those definitions, I do not detect any input lag, and I don't know whether my game suffers from animation lag.

From all of the above it seems to me that Thomas Gocke suffers from both input lag and animation lag, at least when he drives with an outside view camera. It is not clear to me whether he suffers from input lag when he drives with cockpit view.
Word +1

[ThomasGocke]

I haven't looked at any steering wheel or front wheel animations, because I don't care about them. I only look at how and when the car turns when I turn the steering wheel in my hands, and I have not noticed any lag between the two.

I only drive in cockpit view, so I only look where the car is heading, i.e. how the scenery outside the front window changes, when I turn the wheel.
I have not seen any lag between turning my steering wheel and the scenery changing direction, so for me there is no input lag the way I define input lag.

I propose to talk about input lag to discuss lag between turning the wheel and the car changing direction, and animation lag to discuss the lag between turning the wheel and the animations of steering wheel and front wheels showing a response.

With those definitions, I do not detect any input lag, and I don't know whether my game suffers from animation lag.

From all of the above it seems to me that Thomas Gocke suffers from both input lag and animation lag, at least when he drives with an outside view camera. It is not clear to me whether he suffers from input lag when he drives with cockpit view.

Yep, I suffer from INPUT LAG, and even in cockpit view (everything else is not an option for me).

If you don't notice the delay for the virtual wheel animation then I'm not surprised you don't notice the input lag.

[acti0n]

Yeah do it now like in the other forums .. call us noobs

[4ph3x]

It seems that NFS Shift only uses approx 270 degrees steering lock... I'm running a G25 at 420 degrees. To get the cockpit wheel turn 1:1 you need to devide the rating and correct that with the percentage of wheel lock ingame...

In my case this means 1/(420/270) x 100% = approx 65%
No noticable input lag or large deadzones anymore... With these settings the steering gets more precise and stops the back stepping out bigtime... Enjoy!

[redi]

To turn the discussion into a different direction: if you quickly yank the steering wheel in a real car, will the car move instanteneously, or will there also be a delay in the car's response?

Given the mass and inertia of a car, I would expect that a real car also doesn't change direction instantaneously, but all forces need some 'build-up' time and the car also needs time to shift its mass around.
And how about the whole steering system? There's a mechanical (hydraulical?) system that transmits the steering wheel movement to the wheels. Surely that system doesn't react instantaneously especially when moveing the wheel really fast?

[4ph3x]

To turn the discussion into a different direction: if you quickly yank the steering wheel in a real car, will the car move instanteneously, or will there also be a delay in the car's response?

To put it in perspective, in a car the driver is the 'input lag' By this I mean the translation between vision and 'bottom feel' by the human brain. We simracers are connected to a pc brain causing the extra lag...


Given the mass and inertia of a car, I would expect that a real car also doesn't change direction instantaneously, but all forces need some 'build-up' time and the car also needs time to shift its mass around.

True, there's an amount of damping in the hydraulics and the speed of the rack in combination with the speed (self aligning torque + gyroscopic effects) create also lag..In most sims you dont feel this self aligning torque and you can jerk the wheel big time...

For quick steer in at high speed therefore countersteering is needed (the reaction forces are always opposite to the steering reaction, by a quick steer to the opposite direction of the corner before entry the mass of the car wants to go into the corner, this technique is called scandinavian flick). Any proper sportbike rider can approve this as well


And how about the whole steering system? There's a mechanical (hydraulical?) system that transmits the steering wheel movement to the wheels. Surely that system doesn't react instantaneously especially when moveing the wheel really fast?
In real life I wouldn't dare to turn the wheel simrace-ish at high speeds, the risk of a highsider is far too big. To be fast you need to be smooth and therefore balance the mass really gentle... Sawtooth technique doesn't get you on the podium. Imho most sims go wrong here, mostly due to idiot slip angles providing max grip/ peakload at angles >10 degrees, hence sawtoothing is needed to catch the rear...

To get back ontopic I think that most lag is caused by low framerates and the physics engine at much higher frequencies... In first person shooters you can notice this effect by rotating 360 degrees, the accuracy is 360/fps at 60 fps you have an accuracy of 6 degrees, by raising fps you raise accuracy... This is the reason the nerds always win;-)

[ThomasGocke]

Of course there is no lag in reality between steering wheel input and front wheels turning, and of course not a lag that you can measure in tenth of a second. This is ridiculous!

Let me ask you one question, guys:

Don't you think that everything on screen looks absolutely fine?

[Kazumi]

No. The shifter (most noticable on H and sequantial shifter) moves before the driver's hand touches it.

[Goffik]

Come on guys... don't feed the troll.

[f0xx]

I have animation steering lag but its +-0.3sec.. the car still turns when I turn my wheel thats the most important thing ^^

Yes they could sync the animation with the wheel but that wasnt the priority in patch 1.02.

You could try need for speed forum and post a a wishlist for a future patch 1.03 ;)

[Dyno247365]

To me, this is a required part of any racing game and the main reason why I can't enjoy NFS Shift. Racing has always been about using fast reflexes, and when the AI in the game is so unpredictable, I get into a lot of unnecessary crashes because the wheel doesn't turn when I want it to. That's not something I can adapt myself to no matter how good my reflexes are. Does anyone else agree?

[rafnix]

Yes me, don't ever enjoyed it, Shift was a total disappointment for me since day one, I thought and maybe still do it's my rig (ATI 4870) as I can't imagine how one being used to Simbin's can cope with it

[atledreier]

It's fine for me after the patch. I suspect vastly better framerates play a role here, as well as input filtering being removed.

[scca1981]

I have animation steering lag but its +-0.3sec.. the car still turns when I turn my wheel thats the most important thing ^^

Yes they could sync the animation with the wheel but that wasnt the priority in patch 1.02.

You could try need for speed forum and post a a wishlist for a future patch 1.03 ;)

Anyone tried removing the driver animation? I can deal with the wheel being a little off but I think the driver's arms amplify it some.

[caymus]

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=168759

<prop name="Max Steer Rot" data="900" />

only this, with a 900° steering wheel, you have 1/1 ratio when you adjust manualy

Advanced tuning - alignment - steering lock limit into advanced garage

the shake into the steering wheel animation is less visible. (the hand animation isnt in harmony, but can be removed to, but its hazardious crash. so i do this only & do with that...

<prop name="Max Steer Rot" data="900" />

i have hight fps since the start, but i dont enjoy the steering wheel G25 900° with this game to...

i found the mass, cinetic & inertia of cars on track, to light, or its the track with to much grip value? dunno.

but 2 physics values (race & drift) is maybe to hide weakness of the overall physic world? or to much grip on macadam ?

who care, its a nice game... :/

[dadada1]

Anyone tried removing the driver animation? I can deal with the wheel being a little off but I think the driver's arms amplify it some.

I think removing the wheel and arm animations is the best solution. I really hate them as I've yet to see extra animated arms and wheel when I drive my own car. If anyone could work on getting rid of them it would be sweet.:mrgreen:

[redi]

Okay, I did a quick test with GT Legends, GTR2, Race On and DiRT2: a quick yank to the steering wheel in-cockpit and look if the steering wheel on screen lags or not. What do you think? THEY ALL LAG! None of these games has the animation move in sync with the real steering wheel.

As has been stated before, all that matters is how the scenery outside changes direction when turning the wheel, and with all games that happens when it should.

[Gunja]

If anyone could work on getting rid of them it would be sweet.:mrgreen:

There is a mod that does it BUT it is WIP.
Few cars crash the game to desktop (in my case) and it was released before the 2nd patch so the wheel and arms are not removed on those addon cars.

http://forum.racedepartment.com/downloads/need-for-speed-shift-mods/70/no-hands-wheel-cockpit-v2-1755/