Radicals as an online league car......

[darock]

Someone mentioned how the Radicals would make for a good car to use for an online league.

I think they'd be excellent for one very good reason. They have a built in handicapping available. No muss, no bother. The faster, more experienced drivers would be asked to drive the lower horsepower cars.

The less experienced drivers benefit greatly from racing with the fast dudes, but only if they can actually hang close enough for awhile to learn the braking points and line. They can't learn if they can't see, and truthfully, seeing a hotlap has almost no value compared to seeing a faster driver from your own car and being able to "pace with him".

The less powerful car may or may not slow them down enough. But it should keep them in sight for a longer time.

What we'd need would be somebody with a server and then enough drivers to make it worthwhile.

[guybo]

Realy, you'd have to do it in reverse and mix classes. The less experienced drivers would ideally be in the less powerful cars (they could handle them better) and the better guys in the more powerful class. Running mixed in a class league would be cool but these cars are designed for long endurance races. Though there is pitting in Race 07, it's far from perfect. Race 07 is really created for sprint races.

I would love if we could set up pit stops like in rFactor (whether to change tires, how much gas etc) to add another dimension to the game. Seems silly to add LMP-type cars to a game with very limited pit stops.

That said, here in Florida (USA) there is the radical series which runs race weekends which consist of a 90 minute endurance race and two 30 minute sprint races.

[Sam_JS]

http://www.gbsimracing.co.uk/index.php/board,9.0.html

Sam

[darock]

Realy, you'd have to do it in reverse and mix classes. The less experienced drivers would ideally be in the less powerful cars (they could handle them better) and the better guys in the more powerful class. Running mixed in a class league would be cool but these cars are designed for long endurance races. Though there is pitting in Race 07, it's far from perfect. Race 07 is really created for sprint races.

I would love if we could set up pit stops like in rFactor (whether to change tires, how much gas etc) to add another dimension to the game. Seems silly to add LMP-type cars to a game with very limited pit stops.

That said, here in Florida (USA) there is the radical series which runs race weekends which consist of a 90 minute endurance race and two 30 minute sprint races.

The plan is that the sub-classes are mixed. You get to choose Radicals or not when you get to choose a class. Once you've chosen Radicals, the game let's you choose whatever horsepower you wish. And the less experienced drivers would not be assigned any specifically powered car. They are permitted to drive what they have found to be the most comfortable for them or whatever they have found they are fastest in. The idea is to give them the choice that'll let them race what they can race best.

And the idea is to have the more experienced drivers less able to take off in a cloud of dust. The idea is to make the racing closer, not even more spread out. The experienced drivers would be required to run the least horsepower cars. Some leagues already have restricted the aliens from using the Bmers. And RSC is working to see if they can make the penalty weights work in league races. The Radicals would do handicapping without any effort at all. Which is the idea. Handicap the aliens, let the developing drivers have the flexibility to develop.

It really doesn't matter what the cars were designed for in real life. The Radicals seem to match up almost perfectly to the number of one type spec classes everywhere. The Caterhams don't work because they're not really a car for inexperienced developing drivers. And the F3000s are just too much for developing drivers. The FBMWs won't work because they don't have the range of engines the Cats and Radicals have.

My ideas were to have a series that gave the majority a shot at the podium. And a realistic chance to actually SEE the better drivers on track during the race and the possibility to thereby learn from the experience. Instead of simply watching them blaze by near the end of the race. The idea is to increase the car counts, not just provide the aliens another place to blow off some beginners.

You know, a 90 minute race is far from being an endurance race. And if you want pit stops, GTL and GTR2 already do them really well.

190, 205, 230 and 252 engines ought to give the entire range of drivers a shot at the podium. Which is the idea behind using the Radicals. Increase car counts by giving the developing drivers somewhere to learn from the fast dudes.

Just a thought.

[darock]

http://www.gbsimracing.co.uk/index.php/board,9.0.html

Sam


Thanks for the link Sam, but would you be so kind as to give a short version of what your link is to.

For example, it's not really obvious what time the races are run. Wednesdays is obvious. But I didn't see a time mentioned in their schedule anywhere.

Do you run there?
Do they handicap or is it left to the driver?
The first thing I looked for was a results to see how many raced and maybe what time the race was run and the most obvious was "Standings after the First Race" and all I got was a blank screen. After digging around, I found an excellent couple of race reports. Those things are super. Excellent way to see who and what and how. And it looks like they got 17 cars. And one race was at 2100s but no idea what time zone.

Good bunch of drivers?

[darock]

The link Sam posted is to a website that has some leagues running for RACE07.

One of them has just started and it's for Radicals. It looks like you choose whatever appeals to you. I couldn't find a complete description of their plan, because I don't have a lot of time right now and the site wasn't familiar to me.

Since they already have something setup, it would be sensible to take advantage of the existing structure and established driver counts.

Now, to see if I can figure out when they run the races and what it takes to join.

[Sam_JS]

sorry DA, we run Wednesdays starting about 8pm gmt, Radicals running now with WTCC lined up after first short 4 meeting season, the club runs GTL, GPL and Race 07 with race days being alternated eg. Wed 2nd January GTL Mini, next wed 9th Jan is Radicals in Race 07 etc..

We run open classes/power choice with success ballast in Rads, I am leading after 1st meeting so aquired 20kilos for next round at Monza, don't believe "Edam" either, I am no Alien :roflmao:

GPL is run a bit differently because it has been going longest and the group has just rejoined the mainstream after a while out in the wilderness at Yahoo Groups, which I hasten to add, I was not part of because no matter how hard I try I cant get on the pace of the real quick guys :p

You would be more than welcome to come join us in any of the groups, hope to see you there. :up:

Sam

[guybo]

My point is that the basic problem with your idea for a league is that when you have little experience and no speed, more BHP is not the answer- you will only spin and crash out more. The more experienced guys will just be bored with the lower BHP. I understand what you are saying, but the fatal flaw is that putting people with less skill into a higher BHP car is a recipe for disaster.

Weight penalties are perfect. It is the ultimate solution for this problem.

I hope RSC starts the WTCC racing series soon and uses weight penalties. My league now has no weight penalty system and though the racing is generally clean and fun, a weight system would be great to make the season as a whole much closer. Already the top guy is pulling away with the league and only 3 races have been done.

[darock]

My point is that the basic problem with your idea for a league is that when you have little experience and no speed, more BHP is not the answer- you will only spin and crash out more. The more experienced guys will just be bored with the lower BHP. I understand what you are saying, but the fatal flaw is that putting people with less skill into a higher BHP car is a recipe for disaster.

Weight penalties are perfect. It is the ultimate solution for this problem.

I hope RSC starts the WTCC racing series soon and uses weight penalties. My league now has no weight penalty system and though the racing is generally clean and fun, a weight system would be great to make the season as a whole much closer. Already the top guy is pulling away with the league and only 3 races have been done.

The idea isn't to put the inexperienced guys into the higher horsepower cars. They choose what they wish to drive. If they are comfortable in the 252hp car, they can use it. Or the 230hp or the 205hp. The idea wasn't to encourage more attendance in races from the top drivers. There aren't many of them to begin with. But there are lots of guys around who can drive consistently but NEVER have a chance at all for a podium.

This idea is actually identical to the weight penalty system. Instead of assigning a weight penalty, you reduce the horsepower. Almost identical handicapping to the top drivers. However, by permitting the other guys to choose their own car's horsepower, there is a flexibility to let some of them choose less power if they wish. There isn't a flexibility to the weight penalties. None of the middle finishers are allowed to remove weight. And they're in cars with the same horsepower the top drivers have. Virtually, in the "higher horsepower" car.

I would expect a number of the more sensible drivers would choose the 230hp cars for their first races. And would move up when they got the handle on that horsepower. Or might go to a 205hp if they found the 230 too hard to drive.

Truth is, it was an idea for the developing drivers and none of them have spoken up so....................

[darock]

sorry DA, we run Wednesdays starting about 8pm gmt, Radicals running now with WTCC lined up after first short 4 meeting season, the club runs GTL, GPL and Race 07 with race days being alternated eg. Wed 2nd January GTL Mini, next wed 9th Jan is Radicals in Race 07 etc..

We run open classes/power choice with success ballast in Rads, I am leading after 1st meeting so aquired 20kilos for next round at Monza, don't believe "Edam" either, I am no Alien :roflmao:

GPL is run a bit differently because it has been going longest and the group has just rejoined the mainstream after a while out in the wilderness at Yahoo Groups, which I hasten to add, I was not part of because no matter how hard I try I cant get on the pace of the real quick guys :p

You would be more than welcome to come join us in any of the groups, hope to see you there. :up:

Sam

Now that sounds great. 8pm gmt is afternoon here. Perfect time for a retired guy. I will take more time and work through that website to see what's needed to participate.

[Eno]

When I hear "Handicap" I think of guys I use to bowl with years ago in a handicap league. There was always some that would sandbag the first month to pad their average. Then start bowling like they normally would and would end up winning the league. So while the idea is good,trust me. Theres ones around that would use it as a advantage. Great cars these are and would make a wonderful car to race a league in.

[darock]

When I hear "Handicap" I think of guys I use to bowl with years ago in a handicap league. There was always some that would sandbag the first month to pad their average. Then start bowling like they normally would and would end up winning the league. So while the idea is good,trust me. Theres ones around that would use it as a advantage. Great cars these are and would make a wonderful car to race a league in.

The good thing about most handicapping in race series is that it's success based.

If you win, you get handicapped.

If you sandbag, you don't win then. And might not win later when everyone has gotten used to their handicaps and beaten you all the times you sandbagged.

The idea actually isn't to penalize the fast drivers. It's actually to get them driving lap times the developing drivers can see the possibility of doing too.

Truth is, the basic idea was how drivable the Radicals are. The fact they offer a range of powerplants is secondary. But makes them more suitable for developing drivers. The newbies can run the 190 or 205 bhp cars until they've got the handle on a new track. And when they move to the 230 car, it won't suddenly have RWD or entirely different balance or somesuch. And when they're comfortable, the move to the 252 won't be into an entirely different make of car.

[darock]

BTW, I've just run some tests with a couple of different horsepower Radicals.

I took the setups I'd worked up for the 205bhp car and used it on the 230bhp car. Aside from a click or two of air pressure in the tires and what changes you'd expect to the gears, it was climb out of one and into the other.

[michaudt]

Personally I think that if you have enough people racing people won't care about hanicaps. I race, when I can, in the GTL league, and though I'm certainly not the fastest I always find a couple guys who are running similar lap times and I have a great time. If there are only a hand full of drivers than handiapping might be a good idea to keep the racing close, but if you have 15-20 guys then I wouldn't bother. Let the fast guys race the fast guys and the slower guys race the slower guys.

I would like to see a league where you use the same car all season and we have a points system so there are good battles through out the league. Also I would like to mention that it would be nice to find a time that is good for European and North American racers. The GTL league races at 8PM GMT which is 3PM on Sunday where I live and I find it difficult to make the races. Maybe we could alternate times so that it would be more convenient for Euro racers one week and North American racers the next.

[fizman]

developing driver speaking up!
radicals rock!
aliens in 190HP cars, everyone else can choose, each podium position u achieve drops the horsepower bracket available by one notch :)
that way, i get to have some fun, coz i might actually be able to keep up and actually be part of the race!
the 252 HP car is trickier to drive, yes, so to have a chance, i would probably go for the mid range cars... probably..

[GlennSpeed]

My league is currently running the Radicals in rFactor to much success. However the skins are boring. I was wondering if the skins I found here for the Radicals can be used in rFactor? It would sure be helpful to be able to tell the cars apart. Also makes for a nicer replay.

[fizman]

what r the reasons for racing radicals in rfactor over race07?
is race07 not a more sophisticated engine?

[darock]

My league is currently running the Radicals in rFactor to much success. However the skins are boring. I was wondering if the skins I found here for the Radicals can be used in rFactor? It would sure be helpful to be able to tell the cars apart. Also makes for a nicer replay.

If the layout in the templates are the same, it shouldn't be too difficult to make one from the other.


Are the rFactor templates available anywhere that a non-rFactor owner could access them?

[darock]

OK, today I ran in a league race that was for Radicals. All the different ones raced.

It sucked. And it wasn't just because of the different horsepowers. It was basically because of what happens in real life when developing drivers move up to pure race cars with appreciably more power. It takes them awhile to learn to use the brakes like they can be used in pure race cars. Spec series almost always allow excellent brakes in the cars. And them suckers usually stop like they'd hit a wall.

What happened was a bunch of incidents where guys ran over each other. A number of the really hot drivers went almost twice as far into the threshold braking turns as the newbies. Only problem was that a number of the newbies were turning decent lap times and wound up in the mix into a bunch of the turns.

And then we had the guys who'd gotten halfway used to the brakes and were going decently deep and coming out decently fast.

And guess where the race was....... Monza. With 3 cluster flock corners per lap.

Those Radicals ate each other alive. I got hit so hard from directly behind going into the Ascari chicane it broke my steering. From behind and wound up driving the rest of the race with my steering wheel cocked to the side and the fronts wandering at high speed. Talk about having fun. And hit so hard going into delia Roggia I think the car didn't touch the gravel runoff as it went over. And I ran over a guy I caught in the Rettifilio chicane because his speed through it was way slower than I'd ever seen. I was up to 4th at the time and REALLY did not expect to catch anyone, much less be faster than anyone through that nightmare.

Speed differences really cause problems into and through turns. And I think all the Radicals together causes just too much of that.

I take back all the good things I said about mixing Radicals. Truth is any of the really high performance cars probably aren't good for league racing. At least until later in the league, when everyone knows what to expect from everyone else.

[fizman]

i was thinking of having just the 190 and the 205 SR4's....
just a little boost, no more.

[Eno]

Yep Darock,What you say is true in open server racing as well. Knowing your car is one thing but also knowing how your co-racer reacts is just as important and as you say later on can be more predictable. Its why in open server racing at times it can be a wreckfest. I dont believe most race to wreck, but learning how the others race is a experience in itself lol

[petestenning]

When I hear "Handicap" I think of guys I use to bowl with years ago in a handicap league. There was always some that would sandbag the first month to pad their average. Then start bowling like they normally would and would end up winning the league. So while the idea is good,trust me. Theres ones around that would use it as a advantage. Great cars these are and would make a wonderful car to race a league in.

As i run the league Darock has been talking about , this being a trial because of the newness of Race07. The weights added on do slow the cars down a bit and the cars handles slightly as the race goes on ie tyres go off quicker.

Also the league has a sneak rule that means changing HP on your car still carries the weight regardless of which car you take

Monza was a big mistake to use with the Radicals it caused major headaches for me , it looked like a war zone.:(.

However we all learn ,the Minis were better as there is no performance advantage, but will do when the weights get added.

Pete

[darock]

The weights will probably be a very good method to handicap.

Having seen them in action, I've got to ask you if you think they actually can handicap the aliens enough. And ask if you think handicapping the race winners is actually fair as well. The last league races I was in were a perfect example of a much slower car than shown by qualifying and fast race laps winning the race. That driver was lucky to have gotten through the carnage at T1 while the aliens all were wiped out. The assignment of handicap was then applied by finish position, and the guys who were 3-4 seconds faster are now going to be 4-5 seconds faster than at least one other driver thanks to a slower driver carrying weight in the future. And no aliens got weight for yet another race.

Assignment of handicap would probably best be applied to EITHER fast laps or finish position at the discretion of the sanctioning body. The idea would best be applied to the fast DRIVERS, not the ones lucky enough to have won.

It is quite possible to look at past performance to apply weight. It's easily possible in most leagues to point out the drivers who should be getting the weights from their past performance. So do it.

Rank the drivers in the races by their qualiflying time AND race fast lap time. And assign handicap weight by that. And no reason not to look at past performance.

Just a suggestion

[guybo]

The BTCC has a system of success ballast that seems to work well. Ballast is assigned in race 2 for doing well in race 1. You also have ballast according to your position in the championship. I am not 100% sure about how the system works, but it's a 2 tiered system.

Yeah, I guess in theory you could sandbag a series, but pretty quickly you'd catch up to the pack (or not) and you'd have a large gap in points to make up and ballast anyway since you have started to win races. Maybe this works in bowling, but in a race series, people tend to be very competitive and won't give away a podium today when in the next race you can get into a crash and may never get those points back. Not a lot of crashes in bowling.

As for the fairness of it... who cares? It's not about fair, it's about keeping the league fun and maintaining interest in the league and keeping the races tight. Life isn't fair and a racing series that is kept too fair will lose people very quickly as the alien[s] just take over and dominate the series. Besides, the faster drivers will always shine and will always come out on top because that's the nature of the beast. Success ballast only makes it more interesting, it won't affect results.