Video card question

[rudy2112@mchsi.com]

Hey guys, I see a lot of topics with fps concerns. Right now the game runs ok. I have to sacrifice some eye candy in order to get consistent fps. I have shadows on med. and I have mirrors off. Most of the time it will be in the 30's and 40's. Some tracks it will go close to 70. But the main problem is that it will drop into the 20's too often. This is from the cockpit view. If I use hood, or bumper it is not a problem, but I like the cockpit view best. My question is this. What do you think is the cheapest video card that I could upgrade to.

Current system
Pentium D 2.8
3 GB Ram
7600 GT KO

Thanks

[superted]

If you can - try to find a Nvidia 880GTS (BFG over-clocked & lifetime guarantee are best) with at least 512MB RAM memory.
A great card now disscounted.
Note - whatever you get - you will need lots of graphic card RAM to deal with the 'stutters' in Race 07

[splitpbt]

Current system
Pentium D 2.8
3 GB Ram
7600 GT KO

Thanks1st off... check memory and motherboard are compatible/can run in this mode before you do this. If they are...

Remove 1 stick of ram and run the memory in "Dual Channel" mode (if mobo/memory allows). You're more than likely running memory with a config. of "3 x 1gig sticks @ 64bit Bandwidth"
So if you remove one stick as i suggested and run it in "Dual Channel" mode, then effectively you'll double the Bandwidth of your ram.
ie. 2 x 1gig @ "128bit" Bandwidth. This'll almost certainly give you noticeably "better performance/smoother FPS". Also check out the latest nVidia graphics cards.
eg. 8800GT 512mb

Hope this helps you mafrien'...

ps. the only thing i would say is: running demanding apps such as "video converting/encoding software" will benefit from running 3gig ram(single channel due to XP's memory allocation limits - 4gig (period) dual channel not utilised correctly). However, this is not so in game/sim apps: 2gig dual channel will always out perform 3gig single channel...

EDIT: Just did a quick search and i found a small quote on a vista forum and off course, this applies to XP also:
"If the 2 GBs you are now running is in dual channel mode and you add another single 1GB stick, most systems will revert to single channel mode and performance will decrease".

[borris33]

Hey guys, I see a lot of topics with fps concerns. Right now the game runs ok. I have to sacrifice some eye candy in order to get consistent fps. I have shadows on med. and I have mirrors off. Most of the time it will be in the 30's and 40's. Some tracks it will go close to 70. But the main problem is that it will drop into the 20's too often. This is from the cockpit view. If I use hood, or bumper it is not a problem, but I like the cockpit view best. My question is this. What do you think is the cheapest video card that I could upgrade to.

Current system
Pentium D 2.8
3 GB Ram
7600 GT KO

Thanks


Is it AGP or PCI-E card your looking for?
It really depends on your budget. If you buy a high end graphics card to go with your current setup, you would be, what is known as 'CPU bottlenecked'.
If it is PCI-Express, then you could buy a higher end card (such as the Nvidia 8800GT mentioned above) and you could still use it in the future if you upgrade your motherboard/cpu etc.
8800GT is about $300/£150. For around just less than half that a 8600GT would be a good purchase, over your 7600GT

Also I would stick with Nvidia unless you fancy a fresh install of your O/S.
As changing to Ati, it would be preferable to reinstall windows.

Here's a good guide to cards and their performances.
http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=716&model2=855&chart=308

[Gaiajohan]

I think at this point the CPU bottlenecks it. Does it matter if you put your details down and even resolution etc? If not, (like at me), the CPU is the bottleneck I think.
For me it doesn't make any sense if I play at high 1152*864 and 2x AA or 640*480 no AA, low detail..

[rudy2112@mchsi.com]

1st off... check memory and motherboard are compatible/can run in this mode before you do this. If they are...

Remove 1 stick of ram and run the memory in "Dual Channel" mode (if mobo/memory allows). You're more than likely running memory with a config. of "3 x 1gig sticks @ 64bit Bandwidth"
So if you remove one stick as i suggested and run it in "Dual Channel" mode, then effectively you'll double the Bandwidth of your ram.
ie. 2 x 1gig @ "128bit" Bandwidth. This'll almost certainly give you noticeably "better performance/smoother FPS". Also check out the latest nVidia graphics cards.
eg. 8800GT 512mb

Hope this helps you mafrien'...

ps. the only thing i would say is: running demanding apps such as "video converting/encoding software" will benefit from running 3gig ram(single channel due to XP's memory allocation limits - 4gig (period) dual channel not utilised correctly). However, this is not so in game/sim apps: 2gig dual channel will always out perform 3gig single channel...

EDIT: Just did a quick search and i found a small quote on a vista forum and off course, this applies to XP also:
"If the 2 GBs you are now running is in dual channel mode and you add another single 1GB stick, most systems will revert to single channel mode and performance will decrease".

My pc is a gateway. It came with 1gb of dual channel ddr2. I added 2 more 1gb ddr2 sticks. The sticks I added are not dual channel. The geek at best buy told me it would work.

[rudy2112@mchsi.com]

Is it AGP or PCI-E card your looking for?
It really depends on your budget. If you buy a high end graphics card to go with your current setup, you would be, what is known as 'CPU bottlenecked'.
If it is PCI-Express, then you could buy a higher end card (such as the Nvidia 8800GT mentioned above) and you could still use it in the future if you upgrade your motherboard/cpu etc.
8800GT is about $300/£150. For around just less than half that a 8600GT would be a good purchase, over your 7600GT

Also I would stick with Nvidia unless you fancy a fresh install of your O/S.
As changing to Ati, it would be preferable to reinstall windows.

Here's a good guide to cards and their performances.
http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=716&model2=855&chart=308

It is pci express

[rudy2112@mchsi.com]

I think at this point the CPU bottlenecks it. Does it matter if you put your details down and even resolution etc? If not, (like at me), the CPU is the bottleneck I think.
For me it doesn't make any sense if I play at high 1152*864 and 2x AA or 640*480 no AA, low detail..

If I lower the resolution and aa, it does get better. It seems that shadows are the biggest killer for me. I recently lowered the shadows, to low with low quality, and it is much better. If I put it to max shadows, and max quality, it really kills it.

I am currently running in 1280x1024 with aa at level 2. All of the settings are at max accept for shadows, which are on low level with low quality. field of view is %100, and detail is at %100. I also have the mirrors off, as that is a big killer for me also. The game runs pretty solid accept for the start, it will drop to around 28 fps. after that it usually runs consistent from 40 to 70 depending on the track. These numbers are taken from the WTCC cars. They take up more resources than the open wheels do. I would just like to be able to crank the shadows up to max, and turn my rear view mirror on. Do you think the 8600gt would allow me to do that. Thanks for all the replies.

[borris33]

If the original DDR2 RAM was in Dual channel mode and you added 2 more sticks into the free slots, then you are still running Dual Channel.

The graphics card you have at the moment is pretty low spec. If you upgrade that (8600GT 512mb or higher), you will see an improvement on how it handles the graphics. Also try to pick up one that has 512mb on RAM. Try to pick up the best on you can for your budget.
Use the chart and go by the scores is your best bet. For Race 07 use SM2 scores as thats what the game is using ( Shader Model 2 )

So it really all boils down to how much you want to invest in a new graphics card. A higher end card (8800GT) = will play newer games, and last you for a longer period of time before it is unable to play games at a decent frame rate.


You mention that some tracks give better FPS than others.
Run a practice session with no other cars. Check the frame rate, then you will be able to tell if it is the graphics card letting you down. (More Ai = more CPU intensive.) If you see high FPS and low FPS after on the same parts of the track you'll notice there's probably more 'graphics' being drawn on-screen at that particular time. A better graphics card will improve that.

The 8600GT 512mb would be the best (cheapest) card for your current system.


Think about building your own PC for future reference, as you will get more for your money. It really is pretty simple to fit a motherboard and plug CPU/RAM/GPU in.
There are plenty of guides on the web.
Try the Futuremark forums for help and guidance on this subject. The folks there are always willing to help with advice.
http://futuremark.yougamers.com/forum/

[rudy2112@mchsi.com]

there is a big improvement in fps when I am running by myself. It is about 20 fps higher around the same track, at the same spots.

[borris33]

Well, looks like upgrading your cpu might be a better option than your graphics card. Most probably would mean a new motehrbaord too.

Thing is when you have 256mb ram on board your graphics card, and a game has textures that require more than 256mb, it will start using the systems resources. (read more here:- http://www.yougamers.com/articles/13801_video_ram_-_how_much_do_you_really_need-page8/ )

Go post a thread over at Futuremark, you'll get good advice on what's your best options. All depends on how much your willing to spend.
List the name and make of your motherboard. If it supports Core 2 Duo , you could buy a cheap CPU and overclock it.

[splitpbt]

If the original DDR2 RAM was in Dual channel mode and you added 2 more sticks into the free slots, then you are still running Dual Channel.
There are plenty of guides on the web.
Try the Futuremark forums for help and guidance on this subject. The folks there are always willing to help with advice.
http://futuremark.yougamers.com/forum/
1 (originally) stick of, 1gig DDR2 ram (dual channel compatible) runs in "single channel". Adding a further 2 x 1gig sticks, makes it 3gig still running in "single channel" (more than likely @64bit). Removing 1gig stick, would allow "dual channel" effectively doubling ram bandwidth @ 128bit if the ram was compatible of 'cos...

With ram being relatively cheap these days, the first thing i'd do is find another 1gig stick of ram to match the "Original dual channel stick" that you started with...

But before you do this

Look in your ram slots, remove 1 stick making sure to leave the 2 remaining sticks in the same colour slots...
eg. 1 in both of red, yellow, black or blue slots - just make sure the same colour slots are the ones with the ram in them "dual channel mode". So now if you put one in say: yellow and the other in black etc. then you'll be running "single channel mode".
So maybe the guy at the store was right, and the ram is dual channel compatible. Do like i said above and try it out - nothing to lose mafrien' and quite a bit to gain... Although upgrading graphics card you'll see the biggest improvement.

If it supports Core 2 Duo , you could buy a cheap CPU and overclock it. Well if you're gonna buy a cheap CPU to overclock(O'c), then you'll need to start thinking about:
"more cooling = xtra $$'s" and off 'cos, the stress it puts on the system. Just pay the xtra $$'s for one you don't need to O'c.


The 8600GT 512mb would be the best (cheapest) card for your current system.
http://futuremark.yougamers.com/forum/

Below is a small extract of your current card, 7600GT Vs 8600GT:

Games such as Doom 3 saw the 7600 GT delivering 100% more performance on average when compared to the 6600 GT. Then visually intense games such as F.E.A.R were an impressive 85% faster with the 7600 GT. These kinds of gains were also seen in Quake 4 and X3: Reunion, proving that the 7600 GT was a worthy successor of the 6600 GT and well worth the upgrade! Now has the 8600 GT carried on the success of the 6600 GT and 7600 GT graphics cards?

Not at all, the 8600 GT is a joke in my opinion and does not deserve to be part of the x600 GT series. If anything, what we have see here today should have been performance delivered by the 8500 GT, not the 8600 GT. The results really spoke for themselves, as the GeForce 8600 GT was 12% slower in Far Cry, 17% slower in F.E.A.R, 7% slower in X3: Reunion and 19.5% slower in Company of Heroes. The only two games that the 8600 GT came out on top in was Prey (15.5%) and Supreme Commander (27.5%), making a two out of six effort very poor indeed.

Making matters worse is the glaring fact that the new GeForce 8600 GT currently costs $170 US where as the 7600 GT can easily be had for $110 US. This means for the extra $60 US you only get Direct X10 support, which is pretty much useless at this point in time. In fact, it will be a while before quality DX10 games out weigh DX9 games, so what is the point of the 8600 GT? As far as we can see there is no point, it’s a dud! There is little to no reason for anyone to invest $170 US into a mid-range DX10 graphics card now. Especially given by the time quality DX10 games are out, mid-range supporting graphics cards will be much faster and even cheaper!

http://www.elakiri.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27055

[JuliSniper2]

When you use a PCI-E 16x Card, you should look for the new best Graphics Crad from ATI, the ATI Radeon 3870 HD . It has more than 10000 Points in 3D Mark and costs under 200€. I think it depends from the country where you're coming from with the price. But where i live, its the card with ths best performance for the price.

Greez

[splitpbt]

When you use a PCI-E 16x Card, you should look for the new best Graphics Crad from ATI, the ATI Radeon 3870 HD . It has more than 10000 Points in 3D Mark and costs under 200€. I think it depends from the country where you're coming from with the price. But where i live, its the card with ths best performance for the price.

GreezGood point there mafrien'...
But it's been quoted on different hardware forums(tom's and among others) that:
"The 3850 cards performs close to the 8800 GTS series. The reality however is that NVIDIA in any case is at least as fast or significantly faster than the 3870 and that's exactly the problem that the 3870 cards will face".

But yeah, right now at this moment in time, "probably" best bang for buck and agreed - due to where you live. Although in the next couple of months the 8800GT 512mb is gonna take a considerable price drop. So at best the "ati 3870 - ati's highest end card" is equal in some tests to what's gonna be "nVidia's mid range card". That's why you can pick up a "3870" so cheap from the off...

"8800gt in prey 34% faster than 3870"

Also take a look here: http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=307174 where there is already people using the "3870" and say "it still stutters on some tracks in Race07"

[rudy2112@mchsi.com]

1 (originally) stick of, 1gig DDR2 ram (dual channel compatible) runs in "single channel". Adding a further 2 x 1gig sticks, makes it 3gig still running in "single channel" (more than likely @64bit). Removing 1gig stick, would allow "dual channel" effectively doubling ram bandwidth @ 128bit if the ram was compatible of 'cos...

With ram being relatively cheap these days, the first thing i'd do is find another 1gig stick of ram to match the "Original dual channel stick" that you started with...

But before you do this

Look in your ram slots, remove 1 stick making sure to leave the 2 remaining sticks in the same colour slots...
eg. 1 in both of red, yellow, black or blue slots - just make sure the same colour slots are the ones with the ram in them "dual channel mode". So now if you put one in say: yellow and the other in black etc. then you'll be running "single channel mode".
So maybe the guy at the store was right, and the ram is dual channel compatible. Do like i said above and try it out - nothing to lose mafrien' and quite a bit to gain... Although upgrading graphics card you'll see the biggest improvement.

Well if you're gonna buy a cheap CPU to overclock(O'c), then you'll need to start thinking about:
"more cooling = xtra $$'s" and off 'cos, the stress it puts on the system. Just pay the xtra $$'s for one you don't need to O'c.



Below is a small extract of your current card, 7600GT Vs 8600GT:

Games such as Doom 3 saw the 7600 GT delivering 100% more performance on average when compared to the 6600 GT. Then visually intense games such as F.E.A.R were an impressive 85% faster with the 7600 GT. These kinds of gains were also seen in Quake 4 and X3: Reunion, proving that the 7600 GT was a worthy successor of the 6600 GT and well worth the upgrade! Now has the 8600 GT carried on the success of the 6600 GT and 7600 GT graphics cards?

Not at all, the 8600 GT is a joke in my opinion and does not deserve to be part of the x600 GT series. If anything, what we have see here today should have been performance delivered by the 8500 GT, not the 8600 GT. The results really spoke for themselves, as the GeForce 8600 GT was 12% slower in Far Cry, 17% slower in F.E.A.R, 7% slower in X3: Reunion and 19.5% slower in Company of Heroes. The only two games that the 8600 GT came out on top in was Prey (15.5%) and Supreme Commander (27.5%), making a two out of six effort very poor indeed.

Making matters worse is the glaring fact that the new GeForce 8600 GT currently costs $170 US where as the 7600 GT can easily be had for $110 US. This means for the extra $60 US you only get Direct X10 support, which is pretty much useless at this point in time. In fact, it will be a while before quality DX10 games out weigh DX9 games, so what is the point of the 8600 GT? As far as we can see there is no point, it’s a dud! There is little to no reason for anyone to invest $170 US into a mid-range DX10 graphics card now. Especially given by the time quality DX10 games are out, mid-range supporting graphics cards will be much faster and even cheaper!

http://www.elakiri.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27055

I made a mistake, I did not originally have 1 stick of 1gb dual channel ddr2. I had 2 sticks of 512 dual channel ddr2. I then added 2 sticks of 1 gb ddr2.

For a test, I just took out the 2 sticks that I added previsously, leaving it to the factory form of 2 sticks of 512 dual channel ddr2. I played race this way to see the difference. It stayed at the same fps that it did when I added the 2 other sticks. However, even though the fps stayed the same, it definitely ran smoother with the extra 2 sticks. When I would hit certain parts of the track where the fps would drop down to about 30 there was a big difference in performance. With only the 2 512mb it would stutter and freeze for a brief second. With the added 2 sticks it would still drop to 30, but it would not stutter or freeze, it would just slow down a very little bit.

As far as my mother board goes, I have no idea how to find out if I can upgrade the cpu. I downloaded the belarc advisor, and this is what it said I have for a motherboard, (Intel Corporation D945GCZ AAC99321-500).

thank you all very much for your help, I do appreciate it.

[splitpbt]

I made a mistake, I did not originally have 1 stick of 1gb dual channel ddr2. I had 2 sticks of 512 dual channel ddr2. I then added 2 sticks of 1 gb ddr2.np's mafrien'... try putting the 2 x 1gig sticks in and run them dual channel - better than 3gig single channel

[rudy2112@mchsi.com]

np's mafrien'... try putting the 2 x 1gig sticks in and run them dual channel - better than 3gig single channel

my 2 i gig sticks are not dual channel though. just ddr2

[Gaiajohan]

You can put any type of RAM in dual channel, as long speed, and CAS and whatever is equal. With older mainboards you had to have two exactly the same sticks, but in newer ones that's not a mandatory most times.
So if both 1GB sticks are the same brand etc, you can place them in dual channel.

[rudy2112@mchsi.com]

You can put any type of RAM in dual channel, as long speed, and CAS and whatever is equal. With older mainboards you had to have two exactly the same sticks, but in newer ones that's not a mandatory most times.
So if both 1GB sticks are the same brand etc, you can place them in dual channel.

Ok, I will give it a try

[rudy2112@mchsi.com]

Ok, I tried it and really no difference at all. Ok, now I am confused with what config. I should be running with my 4 sticks of ram. Will they all work together
2 sticks are 512mb in dual channel ddr2
2 sticks are 1 gig ddr2 (not dual channel)

[Gaiajohan]

Why are those 2 1GB sticks not in dual channel? That's so strange..

Any combo of 2 the same sticks can be run in dual-channel, as long the motherboard does support it.

But you should put them in the right slots.

usually, if a motherboard has 4 ram-slots, , 2 are yellow, and 2 are green (or whatever colour).

Put these two 1GB sticks in slots with the same colour. And than Dual-channel should work..

[SuperCouilles]

3870x2 just around the corner...
Depending on the benchmark, it runs better than a 8800Ultra.
http://www.pconline.com.cn/diy/graphics/reviews/0801/1210234.html

[Gaiajohan]

3870x2 just around the corner...
Depending on the benchmark, it runs better than a 8800Ultra.
http://www.pconline.com.cn/diy/graphics/reviews/0801/1210234.html

Just too bad to read..
It has 9000+ score 3dmark06 at a resolution of 2560*1600
And than you can even put it in crossfire
http://www.nordichardware.com/image3.php?id=4252

[rudy2112@mchsi.com]

Why are those 2 1GB sticks not in dual channel? That's so strange..

Any combo of 2 the same sticks can be run in dual-channel, as long the motherboard does support it.

But you should put them in the right slots.

usually, if a motherboard has 4 ram-slots, , 2 are yellow, and 2 are green (or whatever colour).

Put these two 1GB sticks in slots with the same colour. And than Dual-channel should work..

Ok, I am just confused with how dual channel works. I thought that was something within the actual card itself. You are saying it doesnt have to do with the card, but with the configuration on the mobo. I took out the 2 512mb and put in the 2 1gig in the same spot. No difference. Should I then put the 2 512mb in the other 2 slots.

[borris33]

Just plug the ram back in the way it was originaly. It was running in dual channel mode.

[splitpbt]

Just plug the ram back in the way it was originaly. It was running in dual channel mode.lol. totally agreed mafrien'...