Ford signs Gardemeister

[Pero_Grozni]

Read about it here (http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/v4/l0/s42/sport_lng0_spo42_sto661352.shtml).

I am really happy to see this as I think quite highly of Toni. He deffinitly deserves a top drive after the drives he showed in the beginning of his WRC career(Seat, New Zeland :cool: ).

What is missing now is to get Colin singed for the second seat at Ford :smash:

[Rallyfan]

This is exellent news,go Toni and other finnish drivers :woohoo:

[gram]

Im also very glad Toni that got place in Ford. Now we will be able to compare his results with Skoda and Ford :up: ;)

[Rallyfan]

So this is how things are looking at the moment:

Peugeot: Grönholm, Märtin (why did Märtin get the awful-not working 307... :cry: )

Subaru: Solberg, Hirvonen

Ford: Gardemeister, Kresta

Mitsubishi: Rovanperä, Panizzi, Galli

Skoda drivers: Schwarz, Tuohino, Paasonen, Bengue

Citroen: Loeb, Duval


This might be a very interesting season,atleast let's hope so ;)

[Hanski]

Sorry to spoil it...
When ever TG had a chance to put his hands on an effective rallycar it has ended to crash. (Mitsubishi, 1000-lakes).

No, I do not believe in him.

That is why I do not believe in Rovanperä eather, same reason.

Old guys, want to show their skills, and overdo it.

Mr.Hirvonen was also a mystery to me. Why he was allowed to make it so long time?

We need Mr. Kovalainen next year in rally.... ;) that's all we got today.

[Jim]

Yes its good for him, but I don't think he'll be on the pace of the likes of Solberg, Loeb and Martin etc. He may be in a slightly more competitive (quicker?) car, but I still can't see him being at the top...

On Wales Rally GB this year he was getting beaten considerable margin, by privateers, noticeably British privateer Mark Higgins. :)

[Pero_Grozni]

Where did you get the info about Hirvonen remaining at Subaru? i didnt see that announcement(it may well be that I missed it).

Effective rallycar-the Lancer was by than not good anymore. It always has been a hard car to get used to as well. Look at Loix's results with it :wc:

You will see that Toni will be fast. IMO one of his problems always was the lack of support and knowing that you cant even get a podium because of the car cannot boost your motivation.

As example of late discoverys I will name Marcus. He was suddenly up there-beating everyone to the ground. Also if we look at the carrers of both Martin and Solberg you an easily see that they both also were rather slow off the mark.
I am sure that the Ford deal must be a huge moral boost for him and i am sure that he is thinking about the title now-really Ford is lightyears ahead of Skoda ATM.

I dont like Solberg right now. He is saying that he will win 10 rallys next year. Some selfconfidence he has (especially after getting beaten so hard this year) :rolleyes:
I hope that Toni will shut him up :twisted:

[Rallyfan]

Where did you get the info about Hirvonen remaining at Subaru? i didnt see that announcement(it may well be that I missed it).

I know just as much as you do,but there is no announcement made that Hirvonen won't drive for Subaru next year.So it's just a guess i made ;)

Also if we look at the carrers of both Martin and Solberg you an easily see that they both also were rather slow off the mark.
up :twisted:


Now i have to argue with you,because i'm an Estonian :P :smash:

Märtin was not slow - he was noticed,when he drived with an aged Private team Toyota Corolla (the car was basicly built in his home garage :OMG: ),and still managed to finish on points.
Then ,after he signed with Subaru,he had a car that did not work at all,compared to his teammates at that time. (Something like 307 and Grönholm this year)
Next year,at Ford he had Nr3 driver treatment,but he still managed to drive quite well, compared to Mcrae and Sainz.

I don't think Solberg was NOT slow too.First year at WRC - a driver learns the roads.Second year - a good driver will get good results.
That's what has happened to both Märtin and Solberg

But this is just my point of view ;)

[Pero_Grozni]

Well compared to Loeb they were both late starters. I remmember when both of them drove for Subaru next to Richard-they both made the same deformation to the Scooby on SanRemo.
Also compare them to guys like Carlos or Juha and you will se just how slow they were-also Ari and not to mention Colin. The biggest quick and dominating rise was Tommi. That is what I call a great start and a brilliant driver.

My point is that Toni never really had a chance with a good car. The Seat was slow, Skoda was slow and the Lancer drive was also on an allready second class car.

And Martin and Solberg both didnt get great results in the second year. Solberg was crashing the Ford badly in the beggining and demolishing the Subaru often. I even thought that he would get dropped in the middle of 2001. If someone told me that they would be the top drivers in the 2003/2004 season back in 2001 I would laugh at him. The way they drove in SanRemo 2001 was just appaling(Loeb was second BTW in his first works Xsara WRC drive).
I didnt even know Martin was any good until Greece 2002.

But no need to take me too seriously as I think that todays drivers are all a bunch of lamers(come on they all get beaten by an unknown driver-I never heard of him- driving the car for the first time basicly).

My personal best drivers of all time are basicly Rohrl, Alen, Waldegard and Vatanen.
If you put todays drivers all together they still wouldnt have 1/10 of the abbility of Rohrl in his best days. :twisted:

[Rallyfan]

OK,something to discuss again :wave: :D

Loeb had a perfect car right from the beginning of his career,the Citroen he had and still has almost never brokes.
It's similar to Ferrari,and Schumacher,of course Schumi is good,but he wouldn't be winning all the time if he would have the McLaren for example.
The same thing goes for Loeb-give him a Peugeot or a Ford,then he will not win all the time too,as a matter of fact i think Loeb won the WRC mostly because of his 99.9% perfect car.

As for Solberg and Märtin,they do not have so reliable cars.Not now or some years ago.

Now,i don't know much about Solberg at the beginning if his WRC career,
but i can tell you a story about Märtin:

Märtin is one of the most unluckiest drivers in the WRC history,and i'm not telling this,because i'm an Estonian ;)
Now,there are several reasons for that:

1)It's always (atleast 90%) Märtin's car which brokes,not his teammates. That happened at the beginning of his WRC career too often,that's why you didn't notice him before is victory in Greece.
For example: Once Märtin was at the staring line,and his Subaru didn't start at all,the next rally,he drove maximally 200m,and you can guess 3 times what happened...123...BINGO! :woohoo: - his car broke down
And don't tell me this cannot be frustrating,to both driver,and to the fans :P

2)Sweden,2004 - Everyone cutted in a curve,Märtin (the leader at that point) did the same thing,and only he hit a rock,which every previous driver had missed by no more that 1cm.... :banghead:

3)So basicly,when s*it can happen,the it will happen to Märtin. Period :(

Now if i would make a top 5 list of rally drivers this:

1)Mäkinen (the best of the flying Finns)
2)Rohrl
3)Vatanen
4)Grönholm
5)Märtin,Solberg or Loeb,depends on how much will they achieve,one of the can be even higher in the list


But i'm still an Estonian,and my thought can be read in my signature ;)

[Roger]

A little OT, but Rally drivers with fearsome speed? (I'm not judging best here, just raw pace)

Henri Toivonen & Colin McRae joint first

then - no particular order

Marku Alen
Mäkinen
Gronholm
Rohrl

Best? Maybe we need Mäkinen & Rohrl up at the top?

[cjl9]

A little OT, but Rally drivers with fearsome speed? (I'm not judging best here, just raw pace)

Henri Toivonen & Colin McRae joint first

then - no particular order

Marku Alen
Mäkinen
Gronholm
Rohrl

Best? Maybe we need Mäkinen & Rohrl up at the top?

For sheer speed...Ari Vatanen and Henri Toivonen

[cjl9]

Best? Maybe we need Mäkinen & Rohrl up at the top?

For best we should consider Erik Carlsson, Bjorn Waldegaard and Hannu Mikkola.

And, in the Uk, Roger Clark.

[Hanski]

1000 lakes rally Finland
(No Rohrl, they say,he was too afraid)

Henri Toivonen
Markku Alen
Ari Vatanen
Timo Makinen
Tommi Makinen
Carlos Sainz
Sebastian Lindholm
Harri Rovanpera
Walter Rohrl
Marcus Gronholm
Colin Mcrae
Toni Gardemaister
Hannu Mikkola
Didier Auriol
Richard Burns
Michael Sundstrom
Simo Lampinen
Stig Blomqvist
Michael Eriksson

[Turty]

1000 lakes rally Finland

(No Rohrl, they say,he was too afraid)


Too afraid? :(
Very strange, I wonder how a coward is able to become world-champion several times. BTW I cannot believe that someone drives an Audi Quattro like Walter Röhrl who is afraid of something related to driving. I think he's still the greatest in Rally. :up: :trophy:

[Hanski]

1000 lakes rally Finland

(No Rohrl, they say,he was too afraid)


Too afraid? :(
Very strange, I wonder how a coward is able to become world-champion several times. BTW I cannot believe that someone drives an Audi Quattro like Walter Röhrl who is afraid of something related to driving. I think he's still the greatest in Rally. :up: :trophy:

I do agree, he is among the great ones.
But here in Finland, here and there, it has been told that Rally Finland, many times, wanted him to start, and also many rumours by other famous drivers told that he knew, rally Finland is too bad for him. Of course they are rumours, as all that kind of things. As a German, you have a good chance to aks him self?

And be welcome next summer to Finland, then you might see a totally different nature of rally.
Rally Finland is fastest of them all, find a story told by Carlos Sainz, a story of stage Ouninpohja.

[Midi]

If we are talking about the best rally driver ever, there's only one name..

..Henri Toivonen..

http://sport.supereva.it/anpa1/ho_smesso/toivonen/memh.jpg

[gram]

If we are talking about the best rally driver ever, there's only one name..

..Henri Toivonen..

http://sport.supereva.it/anpa1/ho_smesso/toivonen/memh.jpg

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Rallyfan]

Is that what was left of the car ? :eek:

[Turty]

Is that what was left of the car ? :eek:

You're right. You can see this and other pics, biographie etc here: http://www.thruxton.f9.co.uk/toivonen.htm :wave:

[Pero_Grozni]

:OMG:

Another twist in the championship.

Subaru signed Sarrazin for tarmac and Atkinson for the other rounds.
Read about Atkinson signing here (http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/v4/l0/s42/e7620/sport_lng0_spo42_evt7620_sto667694.shtml).

Now this came as a suprise to me and dashed the last hopes to see Colin rallying properly again.

As for a late reply-I agree that both Colin and Toivinen had the most fearsome pace ever. But they are far from the best drivers ever. Colin only managed one title and crashed more cars that I see every week :twisted: and Toivinen-well he crahsed so he hardly had a chance at the title. A great rallydriver will always risk just so much that the car stays on the road.

As for the best driver test-i think that it has to be Monte Carlo, but more in the old days. 1000 lakes of course is a challenging rally, but it is held under constant conditions(compared to MC) and the Finns know the road type by far better than the other guys so there really is no quiestion about the winning driver.

If you look through the winners list for MC you will only see names of the best drivers ever. Among them Rohrl, Tommi, Toivonen, Vatanen, Sainz, Loeb....
Nothing is harder than to properly judge a sharp fast turn in the mountins when it ould be either iced up or dry. The thing is that you visually sometimes cant realy tell so it an catch you out straight away.

[Rallyfan]

....and the Finns know the road type by far better than the other guys so there really is no quiestion about the winning driver.


What about Märtin? :D
And seriously,i'm not joking,the roads in 1000 lakes rally are very similar to the roads here in Estonia.So i would not bet on a Finnish driver every time ;)

[Teq]

A great rallydriver will always risk just so much that the car stays on the road.

Well it depends not only on drivers skills but also on his\her personality.
Always when i watch Toivonen driving I get totally thrilled. Besides aggression and sheer speed there is incredible controll and its almost like he's expressing his great passion through driving, through his car. When driving its like he becomes the car. Watching Colin I dont get those impressions, nice sliding but not that fast and aggressive, but maybe im just seeing things. ;)

[Hanski]

A great rallydriver will always risk just so much that the car stays on the road.

Well it depends not only on drivers skills but also on his\her personality.
Always when i watch Toivonen driving I get totally thrilled. Besides aggression and sheer speed there is incredible controll and its almost like he's expressing his great passion through driving, through his car. When driving its like he becomes the car. Watching Colin I dont get those impressions, nice sliding but not that fast and aggressive, but maybe im just seeing things. ;)

As we ae closing to Christmas I have to say that I'm a hell of a personality, using words of hell allways when driving. No help though...

[Pero_Grozni]

Yes-I knew Toni would do well :)

Read about it here (http://eurosport.com/home/pages/v4/l0/s42/e7620/sport_lng0_spo42_evt7620_sto678891.shtml).

Basicly Toni was right up with the fastest non Citroen drivers and took no time to adjust to the car at all. Just he remained calm and didnt push too much so he came in second.

But we have seen many teams switching to Pirelli and maybe this is a factor as well as Martin was really really oof the pace. On the other hand Panizzi also was on Pirelli's and he was brilliant :trophy:

I think that this year the championship could be quite good. Certanly the best times from all the teams entered showed potential :)
Maybe we could also see a bit of a rebirth of Mitsubishi. I also am keen on seeing what the reactions from Provera will be on the poor performance of the drivers(Gronholm was doing great, but crashed again). Hopefully they dont get on the back of Martin straight away as we have seen quite a few drivers being mentaly destroyed in the Peugeot camp(Delacour, Burns, Auriol-from my view he was the best of them all). Gronholm seems to be able to get away with quite a lot due to being a big factor in the Peugeot 206 succes story, but I think that slowly Provera might be starting to get to him as well.

Almost forgot-Kresta with a best time :D :trophy: Great stuff-I really like seeing that.
This just proves it that the Skoda was dog slow and I really enyoy seeing Toni just smile on every interview in the Focus. He must be utterly thrilled to finnaly drive a proper car.

[Rallyfan]

Looks like Toni and Markko have a pretty similar driving style :arrow: remember, this model of Focus was basicly built for Märtin...

Märtin :arrow: a bit slow but as he has told the Estonian press before the season, that we can see some winning maybe after 4-6 rallies, because the Peugeot handles much different than the Focus
Personally i'm hoping much from Sweden already, but maybe we (Estonians) have been spoiled by the performances such as Märtin gave in Finland when he won for example :P

[pepe2]

Toni was second in Monte :woohoo: . Not bad, well of course he was driving Ford. ;) :D :twisted:

[Rallyfan]

....well of course he was driving Ford. ;) :D :twisted:

Märtin+Ford=nothing anymore :cry:
Märtin+Peugeot=a lot of *cencored* things i suspect, but who knows ;)