Display dilemma - size or resolution?

[adriecoot]

hi guys i want to make a decision and would like to know some opinions.. basicaly i want to decide between two options for my sim rig's display:

I have a Panasonic 32" 1080i TV and a Dell 24" 1920x1200 monitor.

My rig is a playseats evolution with a g25. The display sits 10 to 12 inches away from the steering wheel.

The main difference between the two is that the tv is bigger but works at 1920x1080 interlaced resolution, so the monitor looks crisper but is smaller…

Given the choices.. would you go for better looking image or bigger screen?

Another side effect of the tv being interlaced is that i get twice the performance out of my computer.. since the machine only has to render half the frames opposed to 1920x1200 @ 60Hz. (Tv would be 1920x1080 @ 30Hz).

I was reluctant to use the tv for the sim rig thinking it would look like crap sitting so close to the screen, but i did some testing last night and it looks pretty freaking nice…

I know a 40 incher 1080p would be the best option but i cant spend any more cash on this for now.

opinions welcome!

[candychris]

i would go for the 32! :)

[Shinzah]

I would personally go with the monitor, from a different manufacturer. Preferably a monitor with a max refresh over the 100hz range.

I use a 59hz monitor now though. It's 23inch and works quite well for me.

I wouldn't want to sit that close to a tv, lol

[Derek Speare]

I have three 28" lcd's:

http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae109/derekashley1967/NFS%20Shift/1119101135b.jpg

Size matters.

d

[oregonmon]

I'm sitting at a 32" now and even at 720p it looks good that close. I'd go size personally.

[tINKER]

Triple displays over any large TV would be my pref...I run three 23.6" (1920x1080) monitors using Nvidia Surround.

hZJR0KYQAAQ

[adriecoot]

thank you guys. size does seem to matter.

also i noticed that the interlaced resolution is an issue when trying to do computer stuff on windows, specially small text, but once the games are running everything looks great.. right now i am doing FVA, NK Pro, GTR Evo and F1 2010... codemasters interface works perfect on the tv but netkar's smaller text is hard to read... but the actual driving is great on all of them...

also, thanks for the triple screen recomendation, i am fully aware that a 3 screen setup kicks serious ass and i hope i can get there in the future, but as i stated on my first post i do not have a single cent to spend on more screens for now...

any more opinions still welcome!

[Siggs]

Monitor. Size matters for impact, but refresh rate, resolution and pixel density overrule. 24" is hardly small

[adriecoot]

Monitor. Size matters for impact, but refresh rate, resolution and pixel density overrule. 24" is hardly small

damn dude you sent me right back to square one... lol...

but i see your point.. things look much crisper on the monitor...

[Derek Speare]

I have been thinking that since you want the best of both worlds, then use both if it is possible. If your rig has an onboard video, then connect your 24 to that and use that panel just for windows. Connect the TV to your main video and run it when you want to drive. Besides, you aint readin too much text when you're racing. I also agree that siggs has a point. I hooked my system to a 65" mitsu and it was amazingly huge, but the quality gets lost...

Or, you could sell the 32 for a couple of hundred, and buy two more smaller panels and run SoftTH for a three screen setup...but that may be not possible...

You really have to decide which you will give in return for the other. With a bigger screen panel, you get immersiveness; however, with a true monitor you get better image quality. I say immersion trumps the small decrease in quality you'd get.

d

[adriecoot]

thanks d. i just did two laps 'round the Nürburgring on the Porsche Carrera Cup for GTR Evo with the 32"... i really feel more immersion because of the size and i can see better performance because of the resolution, and the lower quality is barely noticeable.. for example the textures on fences around the track look a little funky.. and the red/white lines on the kerbs also look strange from a distance... however i think i notice things just because i know where to look, if i didnt know any better i could not find deffects..


on the other hand it gets a little heavy on the eyes having a huge tv screen a foot away from my face, and like i said small text is hard to read...

so basicaly my conclusion so far is that it all comes down to personal preference.. some folks prefer resolution/refresh rates and some folks prefer bigger screens..

i will do some more laps on the weekend and maybe switch them around and do more comparisons... and nothing stops me from switching around every few days... its not a big deal to unplug move and plug again..

Also about the two screens...i can do that with my card but the thing is that i want one screen on one room and the other just for the rig.. since i use both for different things..

[Flatspotter]

Another vote for triple screens. I use three 22" screens with a TrackIR, and it makes a huge difference for immersion. Being able to see beside you makes for better racing, too.

http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/Flatspotter/triplescreenday1024.jpg

[adriecoot]

thank you bro. i get it. triple screens rule. i have no money for that right now like i said.


your setup looks awesome..

[Derek Speare]

thank you bro. i get it. triple screens rule. i have no money for that right now like i said.


your setup looks awesome..

I understand about knowing where to look. I like to play with the graphics settings when things look off, and sometimes that fixes it. This happened to me in LFS and I just readjusted a few things and all was clear. I also am one to be intolerant of a few things like too many jaggies, etc...

@flatspotter - what FOV setting do you use, and what can I do to keep the cars from getting super stretched on the edges of the outboard panels? My FOV in Evo and GTR2 is around 58 or so, but try as I may, things get really big the farther to the outside it goes.

d

[Stigasawus]

Went from a 26" TV with a 15" monitor for "reading" to a 24" monitor on an adjustable arm to get right behind the wheel. Tested the effect by using card, cut to size, at diff. distances to see how it blocked out the orig. TV. Turned the monitor upside down for clearanceto G25 case (menu lets you revolve the display) & adjust brightness to prevent "snow blindness"
The result is clearer, readable & larger than the 26" further back + no second screen = less$$'s....well untill wife said that "HER" computer was just as entitled to a 24" mon....damn!
Hope I'm right ..I gather LCD's dont emit radiation,like a CRT, so no irradiated eyeballs...think brain irrad. years back so not a consideration there!
Triple looks great but I'd like the left & right to be my side windows & wont go there without say projectors/screen to eliminate those extra breaks at the screen edgees (monitor frame). (which translates to - cheapskate)

[slashthetexan]

^^^^

I agree with Stig on the left monitor being a "left view" and the right monitor being "right view" (looking across the passenger seat out the passenger window).

Everything I've seen on TripleWide or nVidia's is not much more than super widescreen. Sure, it's better than my single 27 incher, but for true surround video, they're gonna have to get something close to a 180 degree FOV.

[adriecoot]

Thanks guys i finally decided to stick with the monitor. things look much crisper and if i use the rigth FOV i get close to the same perspective on both... also i notice the brain adjusts quickly no matter what display i use and the ilusion is almost the same on both. now i am thinking about the track ir.....

[Janis]

Monitor. Size matters for impact, but refresh rate, resolution and pixel density overrule. 24" is hardly small

Thats my dilemma pixels, spoiled on 19"CRT@1920 and 21" CRT@2048. :)

Was considering ones of these cheap 27"
http://www.itestate.com.au/pages/product/pdt_product_detail.faces?BeanName=productDetailAct ion&pcode=07999

[Derek Speare]

Thanks guys i finally decided to stick with the monitor. things look much crisper and if i use the rigth FOV i get close to the same perspective on both... also i notice the brain adjusts quickly no matter what display i use and the ilusion is almost the same on both. now i am thinking about the track ir.....

There is a technology available that tracks your face instead of some bug-like antenna like with Free-Track/Track IR. It's called Face Track Noir, and I support it. I have gotten limited success with NFS Shift, but I abandoned my testing in favor of three panels. Here is some preliminary details:

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215382

The programmer who has developed this application is very supportive of it. His name is Wim and he maintains he contacts at freefalcon.com - I have had several emails back and forth to him, and he is actively interested in its success. Moreover, it is my understanding that it will work seamlessly with sims like GTR Evo, GTR2 and rFactor.

There are great benefits to this technology, which in my opinion, will become an eventuality. The chief benefit other than the increased virtual viewing area of the screen is the fact that it uses a standard webcam and requires no hats, sensors or bug antennae. All you need is your face, and we all have one of those. While it still is very new, it does work. And it's FREE.

Anyhow, take a look at it. I may revisit this again to see with which sims it does indeed work.

Derek

[Flatspotter]

@flatspotter - what FOV setting do you use, and what can I do to keep the cars from getting super stretched on the edges of the outboard panels? My FOV in Evo and GTR2 is around 58 or so, but try as I may, things get really big the farther to the outside it goes.

d

I think I use around 80, but that's from memory. I've gotten used to things being stretched, and I don't really notice it anymore.

[tINKER]

FWIW I use FOV of 35-40 in rFactor depending on the car.

[adriecoot]

FWIW I use FOV of 35-40 in rFactor depending on the car.

what size is your screen and how far from your eyes is it?

[Derek Speare]

Face Track Noir Update:

Hi again,

I have installed FTN and followed the guidelines as Zild indicated in the thread he started on it. I applied the same methodology with respect to GTR2 and GTR Evo, where you start the sim first, ALT+TAB out, start FTN and commence the face tracking with "FakeTrack IR", ALT+TAB back into the sim and go racing.

Both GTR2 and Evo work just fine and the mileage may vary on the settings ans sensitivities one choose. I also verified this program's functionality with iRacing, and in that sim I started and commenced face tracking with Fake Track IR and then ran iRacing. That sim worked perfectly as well. Again, mileage may vary on one's settings and preferences. I'll assume it works with rFactor.

I made a few quick tweaks in all three to see the results, and I found that using only the YAW values worked for me, my feeling that there really wasn't any reason to look up and down much nor roll. In a racing sim, I think a left/right scan is the most vital.

To summarize, Face Track Noir will work with GTR2, GTR Evo and iRacing. The program is easy to use, easy to install and free. In my opinion, I feel it's too good to pass up, especially if one wants the benefits of Track IR without the cash outlay and some kooky looking bug antenna on one's head. Give it a shot. I would highly recommend it.

@Flatspotter - thanks for the update. I keep mine around 59, but I may fiddle with it some more. I'd like to see some programs that would compensate for the stretching at the outermost points, but nothing free yet :)

Best to all,

d

[tINKER]

what size is your screen and how far from your eyes is it?

Here is a pic but it's taken from behind the seat. That's as wide as my camera will go. I am about 27-28" from the displays. When I was using one 23.6" display I was 20-24" away and using a FOV of 40-50. With triples I had to sit back more with a FOV of 35-40. The screens do line up correctly in the driving position, it's just the angle the pic was taken that makes them look off.

The Obutto rig is still a WIP.

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq306/Tinker0620/DSCN0161.jpg

[Siggs]

Deemonay, could you post your settings for Noir? I'm having trouble getting it reacting properly! >_<

Edit: In rFactor that is.

[adriecoot]

yeah i also use 40 - 50 on my 24 incher... man you guys must never go out of the house with such sweet 3x setups...

thanks derek.. i will give it a shot with an old web cam and GTRevo.. also if it works i will report what happens with NetKar, FVA and F1 2010

[Derek Speare]

Deemonay, could you post your settings for Noir? I'm having trouble getting it reacting properly! >_<

Edit: In rFactor that is.

I followed what Zild said in his thread about Face Track - This is the thread, and he goes into some good detail about how to set it up:

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215382

I haven't tested it myself in rFactor, but seeing as the community has verified it, I didn't see much point. For GTR2 and Evo, I set the values that correlated from rFactor, and I ignored the ones which were not there. I also set my left/right to 150 or so. I basically set it all to how Zild suggested. In iRacing, I turned the pitch and roll all the way to 0 so I just ended up with left and right. I'd probably bring up the pitch a bit.

yeah i also use 40 - 50 on my 24 incher... man you guys must never go out of the house with such sweet 3x setups...

thanks derek.. i will give it a shot with an old web cam and GTRevo.. also if it works i will report what happens with NetKar, FVA and F1 2010

:) Good luck...the price is right...that's how I prefer to do it. I like to develop a solution that's as inexpensive as possible.

NB: Be advised that some very new games like F1 2010 have issues with Face Track. Track IR started encrypting their interface data, and the new games with native track ir compatibility, require the encrypted data, meaning a genuine product. However, there is some type of utility that will bypass this, but I don't remember what it is nor where to get it.

@tINKER - Have you found anything that will correct the stretched out menu interface in GTR2? It's tough to read in that super wide format :blink: I've gotten used to it, but I prefer the original.

d

[Siggs]

Oh right, I see. I need to change the look speeds in my plr, wasn't doing that. Cheers :)

[tINKER]

@tINKER - Have you found anything that will correct the stretched out menu interface in GTR2? It's tough to read in that super wide format :blink: I've gotten used to it, but I prefer the original.

d

I don't run GTR2 anymore so i can help. Sorry.

[adriecoot]

well.. i gave facetracknoir a try and it did not work well enough to be usable.. i tried it on gtr evo and netkar and the games recognize the interface and sometimes works womtimes doesnt... i tried with two cameras but i guess they are too crappy for this.. maybe i need a better webcam but this got me thinking that maybe head tracking isnt that great after all... maybe a 24 single monitor is all i need for now until i can afford triple screens... thanks anyway

[Derek Speare]

well.. i gave facetracknoir a try and it did not work well enough to be usable.. i tried it on gtr evo and netkar and the games recognize the interface and sometimes works womtimes doesnt... i tried with two cameras but i guess they are too crappy for this.. maybe i need a better webcam but this got me thinking that maybe head tracking isnt that great after all... maybe a 24 single monitor is all i need for now until i can afford triple screens... thanks anyway

Good that you got it working and tried it out! Bad that is wasn't a viable solution. I agree that there is some limitations to it, mainly in the accuracy of the tracking, but more with the speed in which it responds. I like the technology, and I consider it to have potential for many. I prefer my triple 28 setup, though.

8-)

d

[tINKER]

I just tested the TRACKIR (4) that I had lying around. For me it just does not add anything to a triple display setup. Actually it's more of hindrance since it really throws the side displays off when you turn your head. Its ok with one display to give you more a peripheral views (?) and let you see into a turn. It does not work for me with triples which already allows for that, maybe it's just me. Also makes me a little motion sick...
:unsure::nurse::D

[Siggs]

Well, I spent ages fine tuning my Noir settings, and now I think I've got something really nice and playable.

It follows my subtle looks and head rolls into corners, and if I really need to I can look at sidepod mirrors in F1 cars, but this requires a fair bit of head movement, as they're almost 90 degrees. It takes a little getting used to, reminds me of when I used to have alot of 'look to apex' in my .plr, but I'll soon be back up to speed I reckon ;) All head movements work seamlessly, I have head roll, pitch and yaw enabled, and zooming in and out, although from my driving position that last one isn't always possible... but I can zoom with my head in repays! Which looks...

...


...well, it's looks ridiculous and I feel stupid when I do it :mrgreen: A fun distraction tho :D


Like I said, it took some tweaking, but I'm intruiged at how well it works on my webcam, a cheap-as-chips Microsoft VX-3000.

And fyi, I only run one 25" monitor :)

[Derek Speare]

Well, I spent ages fine tuning my Noir settings, and now I think I've got something really nice and playable.

It follows my subtle looks and head rolls into corners, and if I really need to I can look at sidepod mirrors in F1 cars, but this requires a fair bit of head movement, as they're almost 90 degrees. It takes a little getting used to, reminds me of when I used to have alot of 'look to apex' in my .plr, but I'll soon be back up to speed I reckon ;) All head movements work seamlessly, I have head roll, pitch and yaw enabled, and zooming in and out, although from my driving position that last one isn't always possible... but I can zoom with my head in repays! Which looks...

...


...well, it's looks ridiculous and I feel stupid when I do it :mrgreen: A fun distraction tho :D


Like I said, it took some tweaking, but I'm intruiged at how well it works on my webcam, a cheap-as-chips Microsoft VX-3000.

And fyi, I only run one 25" monitor :)

Bravo, siggs! I have a MS Lifecam 300 or whatever it is and FTN works fine with it. I do agree with tinker, though, that when you have multiple monitors, things can get a bit out of hand. I tested this proggy because I wanted to validate its potential. I personally am not using it, but I would fine tune it with subtle movements if I had one screen.

I think that's what this type of program needs. Fine tuning it can really wring its full potential. I'm glad it worked out for you :)

d