Let's Talk About Input Lag...

[BlueBlueBlue]

The amount of input lagging while using a wheel in Shift 2 is unacceptable. It is far more prevalent than it was in Shift 1.

Now, we've all heard different things regarding the force feedback, config tweaks and modded files to fix or correct the input lag. However, this is something that should not require editing of the game files to fix.

So, I've made this thread where we an discuss why input lag happens and how to fix it without modifying game files that may have unintended consequences.

[WaxxFetish]

The amount of input lagging while using a wheel in Shift 2 is unacceptable. It is far more prevalent than it was in Shift 1.

Now, we've all heard different things regarding the force feedback, config tweaks and modded files to fix or correct the input lag. However, this is something that should not require editing of the game files to fix.

So, I've made this thread where we an discuss why input lag happens and how to fix it without modifying game files that may have unintended consequences.

I'm not sure if this so called 'lag' you've experienced is the same thinig that I'm struggling with, however I'm pretty confident it is not lag - I'd blame the horrible setup of the dampening feature.

I did some research and it seems like there are few params which - as I believe - can be used to tweak dampening timings:

<_cControllerSettings SpeedSensitiveSteering="1.000000" DampeningTimeCentreToLock="0.500000" DampeningTimeLockToCentre="0.300000" DampeningTimeOppositeLockToCentre="0.300000" DigitalRampRateSteering="0.200000" DigitalRampRateThrottle="0.500000" DigitalRampRateBrake="0.500000" DigitalRampRateClutch="0.200000" NominalRiseDamping="0.950000" NominalFallDamping="0.750000" MaxSteerVelocity="3.141593" NominalYawAngle="0.785398" TurnDeadzone="0.325000" ThrottleDeadzone="0.118000" BrakeDeadzone="0.118000" ClutchDeadzone="0.118000" TurnSensitivity="0.250000" ThrottleSensitivity="0.500000" BrakeSensitivity="0.500000" ClutchSensitivity="0.500000" WheelLock="1.000000" WheelLockDegrees="270" AlternateWheelLock="1.000000" AlternateWheelLockDegrees="270" AlternateSpeedSensitiveSteering="1.000000" />

I've checked it in game and it seems that 'lagging' times match the dampening periods quite well. As for now, I've been unable to verify if this direction is correct - the games keeps ignoring the changes I did to the config files.

Regardless of them working or not, such settings should be available as in-game setup tweak (instead of a config file).

Anyway, I'd be more than happy if they'd patch this issue fast, a total gamebraker imo.

[hissingroach]

No lag here.

[DoktorR]

Everyone has the input-lag, because of the .cfg's, you have to edit it manually, see above.

[ocram]

I finally have found an acceptable FFB. But I can't get rid of the input lag.

I tried the dinput.dll. It reduces the lag a bit but destroys the FFB.

I tried editing the xml like above, but that changed nothing.

[MaddmattH]

The very top of my controllerDefaults file for the Momo racing has "DampeningEnabled="0"" already.
Does it still make a difference to disable the rest of it?

[MaxeM]

i only have input lag under 40 fps luckely i got constant 55-70 fps

[BlueBlueBlue]

i only have input lag under 40 fps luckely i got constant 55-70 fps

Yeah, it seems less now after I changed a few settings in ATI CCC. So more FPS = less input lag.

[Gabester]

I still get input lag regardless of FPS.

[Miths111]

I have a bit of input lag (using a Logitech G25), but like MaxeM I also find that as long as my framerate is above around 40 (which it is 95% of the time after I upgraded my Nvidia driver, I was getting terrible framerates when I was running a 250.xx driver), the input lag is minimal - both in terms of how the car respond as well as the animation of the steering wheel - and doesn't really affect my driving, even if steering response is certainly nowhere near as crisp as say iRacing or nKP.

[GregP]

I get a steady 60FPS on my system and it has no effect on lag, so I don't think the two are always related. The only way I've found to make lag diminish is to add in Juls' dinput8.dll, which then causes some weird shaking that I can mostly remove by adding a deadzone of 5% on my wheel.

[Miths111]

I've tried that dinput8.dll file as well after I saw other people mention it. It did reduce input lag to pretty much nothing (even though the unmodded level isn't really causing me any problems, as mentioned in my last post), but I wasn't particularly fond of the changes it made to force feedback, so I deleted it again.

[triskele10]

Here are some very useful tips for the G25/G27

http://www.pubarticles.com/trends-fix-input-lag-problem-shift-2-unleashed-1.html

[Conath]

Here`s a nice video how the input lag looks on PS3:

880mQkROdqk

[juls]

IMO this dll is not good for Shift 2.

[MaddmattH]

Well I just tried the dinput8.dll file that you can find in Shift 1s Overhaul and Sharp mods. Much better!
If your FFB is messed up just pause and un-pause the game.

Maybe the dll still messes up FFB a bit but it's still great compared to playing with lag. I noticed my driving was much better and cleaner :)
I'd recommend everyone try it.

[ravenmorpheus2k]

No noticeable input lag here.

I was getting some controller lag (for example I press the look back button and it took a second to respond) and some serious low spikes in FPS at some tracks (particularly where there are crowds at trackside) but then I turned off AA (running in native res on a 1920x1080P HD TV I don't see much need for it in my opinion), and and I turned off VSync and that "lag" and the low fps spikes seem to have gone away.

One other oddity I've noticed is that the Logitech Profiler starts, even though I'm not using my DFGT, and it only starts automatically with this game. I close it though to make sure it's not causing any conflicts.

Mind you I haven't tried my DFGT with it yet, still using my 360 controller.

But perhaps some should try adjusting their in-game settings?

Here's my settings running on the PC as listed below the pics -

http://i55.tinypic.com/2eex02g.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/m7rqyu.jpg

Asus M4A87TD EVO mobo
8GB DDR3 RAM 1333Mhz
Sapphire Radeon HD 5870 1GB
AMD Phenom II 955 Black Edition OC'd to 3.6GHZ.
Windows 7 64bit

[East]

1. If you reduce the IQ of the game does input lag improve? IE: from 1920x1080 and all max out IQ settings to 1280x1024 to all IQ settings set to low.

2. Open up Device Manager then click on Universal Serial Bus Controller. Click on Generic USB Hub(s). Tab over to Power. What is the total power available?

[BlueBlueBlue]

1. Yes, input lag is worse at 40-50FPS than at 80-90FPS. Although there is still noticeable and annoying input lag at 80-90FPS. However, input lag shouldn't even be a problem until below 30FPS. I know Shift 1 had some minimal input lag, but it's definitely worse in Shift 2.

2. 500 mA per port. Yes, my wheel is plugged into a powered USB port.

[CZRTuning]

First, everybody who thinks that FPS is related to imput lag should strictly abstain from replying here!!!

People, let's solve this, dont quit!!!
I've managed to edit some .xmls but no result.
DampeningTimeCentreToLock="0.500000" DampeningTimeLockToCentre="0.300000" DampeningTimeOppositeLockToCentre="0.300000"
This is causing all that "imput lag". You see, thats not quite imput lag, all the imputs are very fast, that is what Live for Speed calls: "analogue steer smooth" and it makes the steering wheel moves slower than your mouse/joystick/pad/wheel do.
I tried to set that values to 0 or 0.00001 or something like that, but they keep reseting when open the game again. I tough seted <Flags _AsDefaultWhenSaved= to 0 and Customised= to 1 but still no result.
Please, lets get this done, we are damn close!!!!

[Zpectre]

I'm with a Xbox 360 controller on PC and I get input lag.

When I started playing the game I thought it wasn't that bad TBH, but after playing GTL and GTR2 and coming back to Shift 2, it really was quite strange. The handling of the car wasn't problematic (I expected it to be softer since Shift 2 is aimed at the console audience) but the lag was HUGE compared to the SimBin titles. I sincerely don't know how I beat the game with such lag... :D I didn't experience this lag in Shift 1, or at least it wasn't that pronounced.

Whoever fixes the lag (and just the lag since I'm not interested in physics edits) deserves a gold medal for the effort. :D

[brrupsz]

Dinput8.dll from Shift1 Unofficial Community Patch is doing the job quite well.

[Zpectre]

Dinput8.dll from Shift1 Unofficial Community Patch is doing the job quite well.

I'll give it a try, thanks!

[Kazumi]

uhm... the input lag is directly related to fps. period.

of course you can say that at 120 or 240 fps there might still be too much input lag.

given, there are a few engines who don't struggle that much at 40 - 20 fps or even slow down the whole game (makes sense when quick reaction and pixel movements are necessary any ms). that's not the case here and isn't in many other racing sim. (anyone who played GTR2 at release in rain without high end PC will probably know this... the sluggishness at low FPS is worse then the impact of weather and lower grip)


if there's damping it will increase with higher velocity (see video in #14, the wheel accelerating may be up to 10x as the quickest human will do in a real car, depending on wheel lock)

monitor and tv will add additional lag from 5 up to 150 ms (easy to fake with motion enhance modes)

front wheel motion isn't the best to determine lag. we know suspension visuals are accurate (they look for physics data and go to position smoothed), visual tire flex isn't accurate, steering wheel. why should the wheel be 100% synced. in fact I have seen wheel peaks here and there without any physics cause... and remember the bug in 1.1 where caterham and radical front suspension and movements where bugged.

now given the wheel wouldn't be 100% synced physics modification itself would be the 'easiest' way to decrease lag.

damping (and/or input / driver lag) -> physics -> FPS -> display

I agree technically any damping would be first in the list... doesn't mean at all that the others don't matter.

[ropo]

It doesn’t seem to be related to FPS because the lag is much worse when you use a gamepad instead of a wheel. If you choose a wheel configuration the lag isn’t so bad. When you go back to a gamepad config the lag is much worse. In my opinion the game is unplayable with a gamepad and no mods.
I got rid of about 90% of the lag by putting the dinput8.dll in the main dir and installing the UCP v1.06.
I can finally have fun playing this game, even the drifting is much better now. The only problem is I still have to use a wheel configuration even though I play with a gamepad.
Thank you to the nogrip community for fixing this game. It doesn’t appear that EA will ever come out with another patch.

[Kazumi]

well... damping should be visible when the movement (pad or wheel... pad might be harder to notice) differs from the movement on screen. say you move fast, the wheel move slow (input / velocity)

with just input lag those actions (at least physical, animation is another story) are in sync, just delayed.

[Miljan71]

I can confirm too it's NOT FPS related; on my quite elderly rig (Athlon II 250, HD3870 512 MB oc'ed to 860/1040 MHz, 4 GB RAM, Win XP sp3, don't laugh, pls :)) I get 35-55 FPS on 1280x960, v-sync off. I use Logitech Dual Action pad, dinput8.dll and edited damping values in pc custom pad xml, which gives me much, much smaller input lag that without controller .xml editing at the same FPS rate. Of course the lag has not gone completely, but the game is playable now. I'm going to reinstall the game and patch it with UCP, see if gets even better.

[ropo]

I can confirm too it's NOT FPS related; on my quite elderly rig (Athlon II 250, HD3870 512 MB oc'ed to 860/1040 MHz, 4 GB RAM, Win XP sp3, don't laugh, pls :)) I get 35-55 FPS on 1280x960, v-sync off. I use Logitech Dual Action pad, dinput8.dll and edited damping values in pc custom pad xml, which gives me much, much smaller input lag that without controller .xml editing at the same FPS rate. Of course the lag has not gone completely, but the game is playable now. I'm going to reinstall the game and patch it with UCP, see if gets even better.

Try using one of the steering wheel configurations instead of the custom gamepad one, you can map it to your Logitech pad. This worked wonders for me reducing the lag to almost zero. This is why I don’t believe FPS has anything to do with the lag. And the reason I think a wheel config works better is because EA patched the steering wheel lag but left us poor souls with gamepads in the rearview mirror.

I am using an old Logitech rumble pad I got about 5 years ago but just got a new computer with an i7 CORE and NVIDIA GeForce GT 425M so the frame rate is pretty good.

Also some steering wheel configurations seem to work better than others. It took me hours but I tried them all and for me the THRUSTMASTER FERRARI F40 FORCE FEEDBACK worked the best with my old gamepad. That along with the dinput8.dll and the UCP seems to be the best combination…so far.

Extra note; I didn’t need to tweak the .XML file using the above method.

[Miljan71]

@ropo
Thanks, stupid me never thought it was possible to reconfigure wheel controls to the pad sticks/buttons...I'll give it a try

[Kazumi]

:thumbup:

CZRTuning's idea (maybe set it to read only after editing and/or not enter the second custumize menu ingame (where you set deadzone and so on) ) or modify car related parameters should do the same trick, but with enabled slight damping (at 200 kph you might want that... the defaults indeed sometimes lead to (counter)steer in the wrong direction :eek: )

[ropo]

Whoever fixes the lag (and just the lag since I'm not interested in physics edits) deserves a gold medal for the effort. :D

I have tried countless hours now and there seems to be some lag no matter what you do.
I never played Shift 1; didn't EA fix the lag in that game? I see about 5 patches were released, why don't they fix Shift 2?

[Kazumi]

This worked wonders for me reducing the lag to almost zero.
I have tried countless hours now and there seems to be some lag no matter what you do.
:?:

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1513879&postcount=24

damping will add dynamic delay (higher velocity -> higher delay) I'd estimate it to 10 - 400 ms.

static input delay I don't have any data. maybe ~ 1 - 15 ms.

physics reaction take a few ms too make the car act. with a forgiving and sluggish car there's a delay from initial to final reaction, not even considering weight transfer or lifted wheels.

physics to display depends of fps... estimate 160 - 90 ms from 30 to 60 fps.

display another few ms up to more on some tvs (8 - 60 ms without any motion enhance and/or game mode enabled if available / necessary, pc monitors roughly 2 - 30 ms)

(human reaction time for visual information 100 - 200 ms)

generally only up to 50 ms human will perceive no noticable lag in all circumstances. (that's 3 frames in 60 fps, probably the quickest time in current console games)

people in S2U reported varying reaction times in certain inputs (look back) and animation (driver hands) which are noticable higher then the telemetry display. damping can potentially act heavily on car, but is not visible in telemetry at all (according to my research in the last days, I never read that before)

[ropo]

:?:

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1513879&postcount=24

damping will add dynamic delay (higher velocity -> higher delay) I'd estimate it to 10 - 400 ms.

static input delay I don't have any data. maybe ~ 1 - 15 ms.

physics reaction take a few ms too make the car act. with a forgiving and sluggish car there's a delay from initial to final reaction, not even considering weight transfer or lifted wheels.

physics to display depends of fps... estimate 160 - 90 ms from 30 to 60 fps.

display another few ms up to more on some tvs (8 - 60 ms without any motion enhance and/or game mode enabled if available / necessary, pc monitors roughly 2 - 30 ms)

(human reaction time for visual information 100 - 200 ms)

generally only up to 50 ms human will perceive no noticable lag in all circumstances. (that's 3 frames in 60 fps, probably the quickest time in current console games)

people in S2U reported varying reaction times in certain inputs (look back) and animation (driver hands) which are noticable higher then the telemetry display. damping can potentially act heavily on car, but is not visible in telemetry at all (according to my research in the last days, I never read that before)

Thank you for the info, unfortunately I am not that technical.
Can I ask a lame question? I would very much like to get rid of the entire lag.

If frame rate causes the lag, than should a higher number reduce the lag, or not make a difference?
In game the frame rate will vary depending on the track, number of cars, etc. Shouldn't the lag very too than?
It seems the lag never increases or decreases, it's always the same regardless of FPS.
I have tried all the nVida settings suggested by the NoGrip community, plus all the in-game settings. Can you suggest a way?

I have it to almost zero now but when I play another racing sim (SimBin etc.) and go back to Shift 2 I wind up overcorrecting all the corners and heading into the wall again! After some game play I can get my hand/eye coordination to compensate. I use bumper view or hood view so I can’t see the steering wheel movement. That helps some but the lag still persists, just enough to make you grind your teeth :-)

Again, Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Miljan71]

I tried ropo's suggestion to configure my Logitech Dual Action pad to wheel settings. No lag at all; in fact, the controls are too sensitive now, almost comparable to Simbin. Or it's just a personal feeling, idk anymore...

[Kazumi]

Thank you for the info, unfortunately I am not that technical.
Can I ask a lame question? I would very much like to get rid of the entire lag.

If frame rate causes the lag, than should a higher number reduce the lag, or not make a difference?
In game the frame rate will vary depending on the track, number of cars, etc. Shouldn't the lag very too than?
It seems the lag never increases or decreases, it's always the same regardless of FPS.
- not a lame question at all...

- yeah... in other sim you can measure an increase to up to ~30% lag decrease from 30 to 60 fps.

I have it to almost zero now but when I play another racing sim (SimBin etc.) and go back to Shift 2 I wind up overcorrecting all the corners and heading into the wall again! After some game play I can get my hand/eye coordination to compensate. I use bumper view or hood view so I can’t see the steering wheel movement. That helps some but the lag still persists, just enough to make you grind your teeth :-)

Again, Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
yeah... as far as I can say some missing link lies in physics parameters.

suspension and damper need to be set correctly for precise steering (front might work "against the car", so to speak). then all road cars (including upgrades) come with treaded road tires with large slip angles. which means a 10° rotated front wheel doesn't initiate an instant reaction from the car (because wheel direction is kinda irrelevant for contact patch position) . that of course shouldn't happen in race cars at all (not noticably at least, just like other sims with pure race cars)