Upgrades and other tuning

[The Driver]

What kinda of upgrades and other tuning options have you thinked to have in C.A.R.S?

I'm not suggesting, I'm asking (if someone reader didn't understand from what I wrote ;)).

[redi]

I think less of the Need-for-Speed-type upgrades is better. If the game is going to simulate particular race series (GT, old F1, ALMS, DTM) then upgrades aren't necessary at all and it should all be about tuning.

[johnbergqvist]

I think less of the Need-for-Speed-type upgrades is better. If the game is going to simulate particular race series (GT, old F1, ALMS, DTM) then upgrades aren't necessary at all and it should all be about tuning.

My thoughts exactly :thumbup: A lot of the real-life series are spec now, there's not much scope for upgrades, or if there is (like in F1) its all handled by the team. It would be nice to incorporate a tool to analyse the track, compare it with a car's physics and then reccommend setup advice (i.e. low downforce, high ratios, that kinda stuff, well perhaps more technical than that if possible), Like a virtual race engineer, but suited to the track.

[The Driver]

Err.. If so, do we have even stock cars (e.g BMW M3)??
I'm little confused now...

[Kazumi]

Err.. If so, do we have even stock cars (e.g BMW M3)??
I'm little confused now...
currently only 2 race cars were shown.

so maybe there's one road car if they follow the current pattern (well, Ian said they do) if there 'road car' to start with.

probably up to the investors.

I think it needs road cars... maybe with track upgrades, but not works with 2000 hp.

[edubz123]

+1 on the no upgrades suggestion. It keeps things simple and if I don't like a car I'll pick another

[Kaerar]

Actually I'd really like to have upgrades but make them more focused. Road cars upgraded to enter specific classes would be better than just having them end up with the insane works class as per Shift 2.

To me there is something with the attachment of making a modded car into a racer rather than just picking a car off the shelf like a magazine.

Focusing upgrades would IMO solve the issue rather than just removing normal cars altogether as they'll be needed for the lower level racing anyway.

[johnbergqvist]

Actually I'd really like to have upgrades but make them more focused. Road cars upgraded to enter specific classes would be better than just having them end up with the insane works class as per Shift 2.

To me there is something with the attachment of making a modded car into a racer rather than just picking a car off the shelf like a magazine.

Focusing upgrades would IMO solve the issue rather than just removing normal cars altogether as they'll be needed for the lower level racing anyway.
I think maybe you could have two options in-game, choose to buy an already prepared race-car from the manufacturers (like a Porsche 997 GT3 RSR) or, for less money but possibly less reliability, buy a road car and upgrade it to track spec.

[Kaerar]

Agreed. It did take the team behind the GT3 TVR Sagaris 3 years to iron out most of it's issues (mainly due to less money)...

[The Driver]

currently only 2 race cars were shown.

so maybe there's one road car if they follow the current pattern (well, Ian said they do) if there 'road car' to start with.

probably up to the investors.

I think it needs road cars... maybe with track upgrades, but not works with 2000 hp.
Track upgrades, +1. I'd really like to have some upgrades (engine, turbo, suspension, brakes, bodykits and others - but no "works").

Just regular upgrades, and it'll be fine. Or cars, with their latest and best specs (e.g BMW M3 E36, year 1998? Has 316 or 317 horsepowr). :-)

Road cars are must at racing games, especially at sim racing games (you will know why). Their excellent cars to start racing (in real life, and in games) - Not the real race cars; they have too much power and their hard-to-handle when no experience of race cars.

Sadly, I'm not one of the investors... If you want to know, why, just send PM for me.

[steve30x]

I will invest if there will be a few road cars. If not I am not interested. I like the racing cars , but I aso like road cars (the slower ones mostly)

[WLBjork]

Packages are the way to go to start with, e.g I select a BMW 3 series and the Touring Car package to be able to race at touring car level.

NFS-style "open" tuning should be a low priority, but I would still like to see it for online and quick racing in an "unlimited" format.

[MaddmattH]

Packages are the way to go to start with, e.g I select a BMW 3 series and the Touring Car package to be able to race at touring car level.

+1
A package for the different classes would be great. Less bugs, and keeps things organised.

I wouldn't be against a "Works" class though. Insane cars can be good fun.

[The Driver]

Here's a suggestion by me:

When your at car lot, you will be able to buy any road car (if you have money enough for it). Then you go to tuning section, there you will be able to tune your car and also upgrade.

Upgrade sections:

- Brakes (contains sub-sections)
- Suspension (contains sub-sections too)
- Engine (contains sub-sections too)
- Aero (contains sub-sections too)
- Other (contains sub-sections too)
- Tires (doesn't contain sub-sections)

The sub-sections:

Brakes:
- Brake pads
- Brake discs (or what ever they were)
- Other (some extra things?)

Suspension:
- Springs
- Shocks
- Others (?)

Engine:
- Turbos and superchargers
- Flywheels
- Engine swaps (there would be a list of engines?)
- Others (suggest please!)

Aero:
- Bodykits (?)
- Bodykit parts
- Other (-aeroparts?)

Other:
- Oil
- Fuel
- Others (suggestions?)

Tires:
(Tires list, what you can put on your car)

Please, comment this suggestion (I want your opinions)! And please, try to suggest something more to my suggestion, thank you.

I'd like to have Ian's and redi's opinion(s) too, and of course others.

I belive one sure thing... The C.A.R.S will be one of the greatest sim racing games, in the world, but you know why? Because SMS (Slightly Mad Studious) can do this game, without bugs or any problems, unless EA puts their hands to this (again?) - But hopefully this will not be possible.

Little off-topic: Ian (or anyone else at here), would you tell; have you thinked about the price of C.A.R.S? When you start selling it, could you think it's price? :)
But I'll tell my price suggestion at here too: 40-50$ (at minimum), why, because it's a decent price for your work, right? You could of course try selling it even at 60's (in dollars/euros), because it looks so good; that you can't even belive your eyes, when you start playing it! :laugh:

Back to on-topic: A package for different classes would be of course great, but... It would make the tuning (- and upgrading) little more boring, right? It's a great idea, but it has it's cons too. Insane cars at C.A.R.S aren't that bad idea, because their fun-to-drive.. Even though you might not stay on the track. :laugh: Anyways, I'm happy, I got some replies to here (and hopefully it will not end), I want to know your opinions at here.

[johnbergqvist]

Here's a suggestion by me:

When your at car lot, you will be able to buy any road car (if you have money enough for it). Then you go to tuning section, there you will be able to tune your car and also upgrade.

Upgrade sections:

- Brakes (contains sub-sections)
- Suspension (contains sub-sections too)
- Engine (contains sub-sections too)
- Aero (contains sub-sections too)
- Other (contains sub-sections too)
- Tires (doesn't contain sub-sections)

The sub-sections:

Brakes:
- Brake pads
- Brake discs (or what ever they were)
- Other (some extra things?)

Suspension:
- Springs
- Shocks
- Others (?)

Engine:
- Turbos and superchargers
- Flywheels
- Engine swaps (there would be a list of engines?)
- Others (suggest please!)

Aero:
- Bodykits (?)
- Bodykit parts
- Other (-aeroparts?)

Other:
- Oil
- Fuel
- Others (suggestions?)

Tires:
(Tires list, what you can put on your car)

Please, comment this suggestion (I want your opinions)! And please, try to suggest something more to my suggestion, thank you.

I'd like to have Ian's and redi's opinion(s) too, and of course others.

I belive one sure thing... The C.A.R.S will be one of the greatest sim racing games, in the world, but you know why? Because SMS (Slightly Mad Studious) can do this game, without bugs or any problems, unless EA puts their hands to this (again?) - But hopefully this will not be possible.

Little off-topic: Ian (or anyone else at here), would you tell; have you thinked about the price of C.A.R.S? When you start selling it, could you think it's price? :)
But I'll tell my price suggestion at here too: 40-50$ (at minimum), why, because it's a decent price for your work, right? You could of course try selling it even at 60's (in dollars/euros), because it looks so good; that you can't even belive your eyes, when you start playing it! :laugh:

Back to on-topic: A package for different classes would be of course great, but... It would make the tuning (- and upgrading) little more boring, right? It's a great idea, but it has it's cons too. Insane cars at C.A.R.S aren't that bad idea, because their fun-to-drive.. Even though you might not stay on the track. :laugh: Anyways, I'm happy, I got some replies to here (and hopefully it will not end), I want to know your opinions at here.
I would prefer to upgrade a car to work with the regulations of which series you're entering in one go, rather than spending time agonising over silly things like whether to upgrade the flywheel or the turbocharger.

[xenobot]

IMHO an extensive upgrade system will make it impossible to balance out class racing. Racing series like GT1 or GT3 have different cars balanced out (BoP). Things like engine updates or aero kits would be the death of balanced multiplayer online racing.

[Headsoup]

I would prefer to upgrade a car to work with the regulations of which series you're entering in one go, rather than spending time agonising over silly things like whether to upgrade the flywheel or the turbocharger.

I agree. I'd like to see upgrades really locked down. Either the car is stock, or you can buy the upgrade package to fit the racing class you want to enter: say for a Nissan GTR you can buy a GT1, SuperGT or (now) GT3 kit etc.

Maybe there's an option to buy a 'tuning kit' for the stock cars, which just adds parts to enable suspension/camber/caster/swaybar tuning etc?

Not having all the little upgrades to individual components will force people to focus more on tuning and bring tighter racing, which is a good thing I think :)

[WLBjork]

Here's a suggestion by me:

When your at car lot, you will be able to buy any road car (if you have money enough for it). Then you go to tuning section, there you will be able to tune your car and also upgrade.

Upgrade sections:

<snip>

Please, comment this suggestion (I want your opinions)! And please, try to suggest something more to my suggestion, thank you.

As has been said, this is nice, but the potential for imbalance and bugs exist. I would like to see this, but as a low priority due to the complexity of it.

Little off-topic: Ian (or anyone else at here), would you tell; have you thinked about the price of C.A.R.S? When you start selling it, could you think it's price? :)
But I'll tell my price suggestion at here too: 40-50$ (at minimum), why, because it's a decent price for your work, right? You could of course try selling it even at 60's (in dollars/euros), because it looks so good; that you can't even belive your eyes, when you start playing it! :laugh:

They have. C.A.R.S will bee free. However, that only nets you the engine, a couple of tracks and a couple of cars. Anything else, you have to pay for.

[The Driver]

Did I hear right?! C.A.R.S will be free?!?! No way... This can't be possible...
Anyways, thanks for replies.

I agree with all of you (in my upgrade -suggestion, it would be buggy, and it would be hard-to-make). Just a simple upgrade things, right? Or no upgrades? :)

[redi]

Did I hear right?! C.A.R.S will be free?!?! No way... This can't be possible...

The base game will be free, but it will include few cars and tracks (I'd say 5-6 cars and 3 or 4 tracks). All other content (cars, tracks, liveries) you will have to buy, sort of like iRacing.

[Headsoup]

sort of like iRacing.

And that's the beauty of it, the physics and graphics should be top notch, but there's no subscription model and everything is really cheap (I believe $1 or $2 per car?), and there'll be modding capability.

Win, win :)

[johnbergqvist]

Did I hear right?! C.A.R.S will be free?!?! No way... This can't be possible...
Anyways, thanks for replies.

I agree with all of you (in my upgrade -suggestion, it would be buggy, and it would be hard-to-make). Just a simple upgrade things, right? Or no upgrades? :)
I feel upgrades would be confusing to the user, and possibly unrealistic if we are simulating professional, regulated motorsport classes here.

[redi]

I feel upgrades would be confusing to the user, and possibly unrealistic if we are simulating professional, regulated motorsport classes here.
Well what's going to be simulated and how, with or without all kinds of upgrades, is all up to the investors :)

If it turns out that 'the investors' want to have extensive upgrades, maybe those who don't want it then should lobby for an option to turn off those upgrades for offline AI races and/or online server set-up. That way you can choose to use them or stick to stock set-ups.

[johnbergqvist]

If it turns out that 'the investors' want to have extensive upgrades, maybe those who don't want it then should lobby for an option to turn off those upgrades for offline AI races and/or online server set-up. That way you can choose to use them or stick to stock set-ups.
I rarely race online, so that would make sense :)

[redi]

I rarely race online, so that would make sense :)
For either online or offline racing, allowing or disallowing all or certain extensive car upgrades can be a 'race mode' so to speak, so you can regulate what type of cars and their range of strengths you will race against. Added flexibility for extra fun :)

[johnbergqvist]

Well for me, I just wouldn't want to go down the SHIFT route of getting a crappy VW Golf and tuning it into a Fast & The Furious-style semi-legal kinda thing. That just isn't what professional racing is about IMO.

[redi]

Well for me, I just wouldn't want to go down the SHIFT route of getting a crappy VW Golf and tuning it into a Fast & The Furious-style semi-legal kinda thing. That just isn't what professional racing is about IMO.
Hence, allowing it to be switched off for those who don't like it (like yourself) and enabling it for giving a F&F upgrading extravaganza to those who do like it would be the best of both worlds IMHO :)

[Kaerar]

I do love all the different perceptions of racing, when really all that started it was "I bet I can beat you to point B from point A..."

Nothing was mentioned about parts, cars, just a wager. Professional racing took that to a different and very expensive level. It's essence however is still with the street racing and Point to Point racing that started it all, on the public roads too ;)

Also a lot of race series start off with normal road cars, it's only with the unlimited budgets of big series that you end up with bespoke chassis and engine/transmission setups.

Would be interesting to play the difference between them, as well as have the different kits/setups/upgrades for the different race series for any "normal" cars that are valid for them.

[bricky149]

Bump. :)

I'm also against upgrades in C.A.R.S. because it stops me from using all the cars the devs put effort into and the upgrades can make a car become unrealistic, like in Shift 2, where I took a Golf GTI, applied works and tuned it so it would handle properly. Instead it revved and wouldn't speed like the rocket it was meant to be. :(

Since C.A.R.S. is about racing (and cars) it shouldn't be about tuning. If I'm not happy with a particular car then I'll choose another. ;)

[Kazumi]

Bump. :)

I'm also against upgrades in C.A.R.S. because it stops me from using all the cars the devs put effort into and the upgrades can make a car become unrealistic, like in Shift 2, where I took a Golf GTI, applied works and tuned it so it would handle properly. Instead it revved and wouldn't speed like the rocket it was meant to be. :(

Since C.A.R.S. is about racing (and cars) it shouldn't be about tuning. If I'm not happy with a particular car then I'll choose another. ;)
maybe try my set-up :ohmy:

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1443567&postcount=495

I don't get much trouble to put the power to the ground.



other then that I agree. if those cars ended up with S2000 specs and set-up or similar... they'd be more drivable and enjoyable :thumbup:

[bricky149]

maybe try my set-up :ohmy:

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1443567&postcount=495

I don't get much trouble to put the power to the ground.



other then that I agree. if those cars ended up with S2000 specs and set-up or similar... they'd be more drivable and enjoyable :thumbup:
I don't have Shift 2 on PC. It's on X360. :-P

And knowing that S2U was still NFS it was probably done on-purpose (although not to that extent).

[Stangmaster427]

I think the best route for everyone would be using packages (as previously stated). Those who would like to take a stock car and race it in a gt series for example, would buy a gt package that would be able to pass gt regulations. And those who wish not to use a upgraded stock car, can just buy a race car for the gt class. Its a win/win situation. The cars that are upgraded are in a even class with the cars that are "stock".;-)

[The Driver]

I do love all the different perceptions of racing, when really all that started it was "I bet I can beat you to point B from point A..."

Nothing was mentioned about parts, cars, just a wager. Professional racing took that to a different and very expensive level. It's essence however is still with the street racing and Point to Point racing that started it all, on the public roads too ;)

Also a lot of race series start off with normal road cars, it's only with the unlimited budgets of big series that you end up with bespoke chassis and engine/transmission setups.

Would be interesting to play the difference between them, as well as have the different kits/setups/upgrades for the different race series for any "normal" cars that are valid for them.
Agreed.


Bump. :)

I'm also against upgrades in C.A.R.S. because it stops me from using all the cars the devs put effort into and the upgrades can make a car become unrealistic, like in Shift 2, where I took a Golf GTI, applied works and tuned it so it would handle properly. Instead it revved and wouldn't speed like the rocket it was meant to be. :(

Since C.A.R.S. is about racing (and cars) it shouldn't be about tuning. If I'm not happy with a particular car then I'll choose another. ;)
There should be the real tuning.. Like tuning the steering lock, for an example. :)

I think the best route for everyone would be using packages (as previously stated). Those who would like to take a stock car and race it in a gt series for example, would buy a gt package that would be able to pass gt regulations. And those who wish not to use a upgraded stock car, can just buy a race car for the gt class. Its a win/win situation. The cars that are upgraded are in a even class with the cars that are "stock".;-)
This +1. This is very good idea - The packages should be balanced. It avoids getting overpowered cars and underpowered.

Also, it should be kept at ' realism level '! So, no any works things, or similar.

[bricky149]

There should be the real tuning.. Like tuning the steering lock, for an example. :)
I'm all in for that.

I liked how SimBin's games have done it and it would be great to see something similar. ;)

[The Driver]

^ Indeed.
That's the key of racing.. Well mostly.
If you cannot tune your car that way - It is impossible to win, unless you take out your opponents, by crashing them.. Or be first at first corner or so on.

[Stangmaster427]

This +1. This is very good idea - The packages should be balanced. It avoids getting overpowered cars and underpowered.

Also, it should be kept at ' realism level '! So, no any works things, or similar.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for agreeing with me. You're right about the packages being balanced. One of the number one issues with Shift 2 was the unbalanced works packages. For this game, the packages should be based on real world regulations for each series you want to race your car in.

[ludogator]

I may not be a "sim-racer", and some hardcore players would feel comfortable with calling me a casual, but I believe, car upgrades would be a great way to better sales.

There are a few good sim games for pc, but all of them treat racing very seriously. There are leagues, classes etc. I know a lot of people, who like to play with car settings, just to have some simple fun alone later on the track, or just pick a car, set some simple rules, and go driving. I for example do not like any liveries, and if it is possible, I make all cars black.

Making some space in this game for such people would be a great marketing move, and I believe, most of you guys, would love to spend some time on a specific car, making it better and testing on track, and then maybe race with friends via net or lan without any strict rules.

If we want to keep the game serious, it can be driven in the opposite direction - make upgrades available including things like low compression pistons, racing bolts etc. and let people do, whatever they want without any limits, but with consequences if it was done improperly (blowing engines if somebody put a turbocharger on it without forged, low compression pistons and so on).

[Kazumi]

One of the number one issues with Shift 2 was the unbalanced works packages. For this game, the packages should be based on real world regulations for each series you want to race your car in.
that's true. still if there will be road cars one package could also include, say, all parts up to 30.000€ value. just for people who want to try different tire, exhaust, turbo and whatever and put it to a test on a track. the parts of course have to be real-ish in terms of performance.

keep it simple. but even it there's tuning I don't need stage 3 - to works, if there are enough pre build and -tuned cars. and I don't think that is (or ever were) on the plan for c.a.r.s. anyway.

in racing that's difficult... of course developing and forging new parts is interesting. but on FIA level most things are limited anyway so it's not as relevant in racing.

I don't have Shift 2 on PC. It's on X360. :-P

And knowing that S2U was still NFS it was probably done on-purpose (although not to that extent).
the first set-up is for a completely unmodified S2U. you only had to adjust the steering lock to your wheel rotation or pad (although 18 won't be much of a problem, at least it's not too high)

[Kazumi]

If we want to keep the game serious, it can be driven in the opposite direction - make upgrades available including things like low compression pistons, racing bolts etc. and let people do, whatever they want without any limits, but with consequences if it was done improperly (blowing engines if somebody put a turbocharger on it without forged, low compression pistons and so on).

indeed, not to mention you can get many different parts in the same performance (and price) range :-)

[Stangmaster427]

^+1. That's a good idea too.