Could someone check out my Nords hotlap?

[morph6567]

Hi, everyone.

I've just submitted my SEAT Leon 2007 Nordschleife hotlap. I'd be grateful if anyone could possibly check it out and tell me what I'm doing wrong. I mean I heard a person elsewhere in the forum mentioning sub 7 minutes lap-time in a BMW. No matter what I do I'm not even on my way to 7 minutes. The difficulty level is PRO with autoclutch on since I have no clutch pedal. I'm desperate. :crying:

Sorry if I posted in the wrong place.

Side note. The wheel is Logitech Formula Vibration Force Feedback Wheel. The setup is Nordschleife default.

[darock]

Hi, everyone.

Side note. The wheel is Logitech Formula Vibration Force Feedback Wheel. The setup is Nordschleife default.

Running a default setup is the first thing to move beyond.

It is quite simple to adjust the camber, tyre pressures and gearing, none of which has been done for the default setup. And the benefit is obvious and far greater than the effect any specific steering wheel would show.

Getting the front wheels adjusted will often help corner entry significantly. And if you're driving a RWD then it's worth it to get the rears adjusted and you'll see the difference.

Getting the gear box sorted just might be the most effective one tuneup for any newbie. If your top gear is too long, it IS costing you lap time. And if it's too short, it's costing you MORE time than too long costs.

You don't have to be a setup wizzard to do camber, pressures, and gearing. And they give you enough improvement to be worth learning to do them. Run a couple of laps on the GP circuit to tune them. It's really worth it.

[morph6567]

Thanks for your tips, darock.

BTW, I've just come across your thread on making your own setups. Aladdin's cave for newbies, me included. :thumbup:

[darock]

It's actually not a complete recipe for a setup, just the part that needs to be done first.

It's quite easy to do and not too complicated. And pays major dividends for the least work.

[darock]

BTW, it's not actually very clear, watching a hotlap, what the other driver is doing wrong or right unless it's very wrong. The difference between a good lap time and a bad one is made up of tenths saved here and there. You really can't see where another driver has braked a couple of tenths too soon, or too late and too hard. Especially when you only see one car by itself with no reference to another faster/slower one.

Noone can watch a hotlap and know if you're running the wrong gearing, too hard springs/shocks, badly adjusted tyre pressures, etc

What you ask isn't possible. Now, if there were a MoTeC file with each hotlap, we could all download those and run our own comparisons. Or if there was a timetrial ghost lap to use.........

whatever.........

[darock]

And it's really difficult for another driver to accurately judge your apex points unless he's very familiar with the car you're driving. Do you know the "apex rules"? When you do early apexing versus late apexing and when to "roll through", keeping as much momentum as possible? All those depend on how powerful your car is and how well it's setup/balanced. Unless the observer knows how your car feels and how well it handles versus how well it accelerates, he's at a major disadvantage for judging if you're hitting the right apexes.

The driver apexes a powerful car appreciably earlier to take advantage of the acceleration edge of the car. Unless the car also handles extremely well. And then the logistics of the turn matters more than it would if the car were just powerful.

It's really not very easy for most to watch a hotlap and give good advice beyond a few of the most obvious observations. Do you use all the road? That's easy to spot. And if you watch your own hotlaps, you can do a really good job looking for the places you didn't use as much as you could have. Matter of fact, watching your last hotlap is a way to learn.

A good suggestion for newbies is that they run the shortest tracks. And study the replays to see what they actually did. Where the car actually went. The short tracks have fewer turns, and allow the driver to perfect them.

Don't expect to turn competitive times on the "rally stage" until you can run good times on the GP course. As it is, the GP course has a number of really good "lesson" turns that will teach you things that work other places.

There is another quality of the shorter lap that makes it more useful for lessons. How in the world would two people discuss the cornering of the student on a 1,000 corner lap where almost none of the corners have names? Pick a place like Brands Hatch Indy and there will be little time wasted communicating the "where" part of the discussion. Heck, it's good because even the GP layout is turn-straight-turn-straight with few compound turns. The Green Hell on the other hand has lots of zig-zags, and they're nameless.

[morph6567]

Now that I've read your posts, darock, I see it wasn't very wise on my part to ask people to check out my hotlaps. Believe it or not, I was sure a good old replay with speedo & tachometer visible is more than enough to make a sound judgement. :blushing:

And since you've mentioned setups... What tactics in your opinion would be better: get stable lap-times first & then tweak my car, or vice versa? For I'm not sure whether lousy hotlaps have sth to do with the car or with me. Or maybe there're tweaks I could make regardless of my driving skills?

[darock]

The logic of the setup values is that they are not wide enough range that they can hurt. So don't worry about screwing up your lap times while learning how to adjust them.

The basic truth is that until you can drive well enough to feel setup changes, then it's a waste to mess with them unless there is something outside your touch that will suggest specific adjustments... like MoTeC.....

And until you are familiar with a car and a track enough to have found good/better ways through most of the turns, then having a better setup won't do anything for you.

Do you have a favorite car, or do you jump around. Do you have a favorite track? It often helps to have a track or two you don't get bored driving. Then practicing and working on setups there don't get tiresome.

Just setting the "basic 3" setup adjustments takes a bit of time when you're just getting the hang of it. And during that time, it's best to stick at one track. I break it up by running short races with the AI. Takes the mind off the setup and gives a clearer picture of how the changes are working.

[morph6567]

Thanks loads, darock. I appreciate your help. I guess it's high time for me to try and do sth. :drive2:

[morph6567]

Hmm... I have a small problem with setups. I've read some advice on how to alter various parameters, but I don't get how to apply the settings. I mean, I have no idea what track peculiarities I have to take into account to make a decent setup. I've tried, but the settings don't seem to work for the whole track. In one sector it may work, but the other one may be ruined.

So here's the question, is there any universal setup plan: what to begin with & how to adjust a car to a track?

[darock]

Hmm... I have a small problem with setups. I've read some advice on how to alter various parameters, but I don't get how to apply the settings. I mean, I have no idea what track peculiarities I have to take into account to make a decent setup. I've tried, but the settings don't seem to work for the whole track. In one sector it may work, but the other one may be ruined.

So here's the question, is there any universal setup plan: what to begin with & how to adjust a car to a track?

Not really.

A number of them do tell you to sort out the basic stuff first. That's the gearing, camber, and tyre pressures.

The real problem is that from GTL time to now, there have been a number of the setup functions that were questionable. And a number that most drivers really can't feel until they've really gotten a lot of seat time.

For example, do you know how a car feels when it's power-off-understeering? Or understeers on braking as opposed to power-off?

And the biggie....... It's quite easy to setup using tyre temps as your primary indicator. And GTL-to-Evo, the physics engine doesn't do temps worth spit. You can run a rock hard setup versus a marshmellow soft setup and the tyre temps won't differ 3-4degrees. Some tyres won't differ at all.

Yeah, there are setup plans published that give a recipe to follow, but they often show the author's lack of experience with this series of games.

[darock]

I'd suggest a good course would be to set the basic 3: gearing, camber, tyre pressures, and then just do laps until you've got a reliable line.

Then work on the differential and brake bias to learn how they help.

It really looks like spending lots of time trying to find good spring rates and shock rates happens to improve your times from little more than the laps you turn screwing with those functions. For awhile, I used to center all those and forget them. Recently, I've quit centering them.

Until you're running dependably fast laps on any track, screwing around with the setups to "fix" the car is pretty much a waste of time. Unless it seems fun to do and keeps you interested in doing laps.

[gazman]

just one second a klm quicker will give 20 seconds of your lap at nords. They add up here.

[darock]

A buddy of mine hated any powerful car.... ANY car that had power enough to wipe out on a standing start. He busted his butt trying to adjust springs, shocks, diff, wing, whatever.... to cure that power-on-oversteer.

I finally got him to adjust his gearbox in the lower gears. He automatically set his top gear, but "wanted the best acceleration possible" and felt that softening up the low gears would cost him time, and hurt his starts. BS...... And refused to even try it. He couldn't get the car going on starts and spun the sucker all the time on the slow turns. Feathering the gas on exit wound up costing him time most turns. Once he got scared of looping it on exit he was worthless on exit.

It's a basic deal to set the gearing so the gears help you, not hurt you. And that includes the low gears as well as the high ones. After he got used to closing up the gear ratios from low to whatever high the track/car had dictated, he went back to the default setting for most everything else (except camber and tyre pressures) and gained some more time. Until you are driving the laps dependably, messing with stuff is a waste of time. Except of course for gearing, camber, pressure.

[darock]

Why work on diff and bias 1st?

Not really because they're more important, but because of what trying to set them will teach you. You'll learn to let off enough going into a turn that the car will have a chance to turn in. Best driving technique to learn of them all.

Driving technique is way more important than setup.

[darock]

Hey, Morph............ what's your favorite car and track????

[morph6567]

Hey, Morph............ what's your favorite car and track????

So many posts remained unanswered, sorry. New Year's hustle 'n' bustle, you know.

To the point. My fave track is Nordschleife. I just love it. It so bloody fast, but highly demanding. Pity it loads for centuries. :-( Whatever.

My fave car is WTCC '07 Seat Leon (I only wish it wouln't sqeal so nastily while accelerating). I also have great fun with Alfa Romeo '87: it handles perfectly, though it's rather slow to accelerate. And I'm "falling in love" with F3000 and F1 '05 cars, but I end up spinning out now and then. That'd be all, I guess.

[morph6567]

just one second a klm quicker will give 20 seconds of your lap at nords. They add up here.

Exactly. The Wiki says Nords has 33 left and 40 right turns. Win half a sec in each of them and have your lap-time decreased by half a min. I usually count in turns and not kilometers, for it's impossible to be 1 sec faster on the straightway without tuning the car.

[Milky Way]

I just submitted a 7:24.263. Haven't done too many laps with WTCC on Nords either. Check it out if you like.

Edit: Just improved to 7:22.441

[morph6567]

I just submitted a 7:24.263. Haven't done too many laps with WTCC on Nords either. Check it out if you like.

Edit: Just improved to 7:22.441

I'm not asking how you do it, 'cause you wouldn't tell me. But in case it's not a big secret of yours could you, please, tell me what values did you set for wheel and pedals sensitivity?

[Milky Way]

I'm not asking how you do it, 'cause you wouldn't tell me. But in case it's not a big secret of yours could you, please, tell me what values did you set for wheel and pedals sensitivity?

NP. Steering, Throttle and Brake-sensitivity are all at 50%. Maybe these are default, because I don't remember changing them.

Settings of the car are SIMBIN's settings for the Leon (go into "Files" and load) with the following changes:
Fuel 1L (in time attack mode fuel isn't consumed).
Gearing two clicks up on 1st gear and one click up on all others.
That's it!

[morph6567]

NP. Steering, Throttle and Brake-sensitivity are all at 50%. Maybe these are default, because I don't remember changing them.

Settings of the car are SIMBIN's settings for the Leon (go into "Files" and load) with the following changes:
Fuel 1L (in time attack mode fuel isn't consumed).
Gearing two clicks up on 1st gear and one click up on all others.
That's it!

Thanks a lot, Milky Way. Judging by what I saw your words can only mean that you're a much better driver than me. Keep going. :thumbup: