Crap FPS on new(ish) SLI system

[macwun77]

I'm a fairly experienced PC builder/user/tweaker and I've just recently upgraded to a faster CPU (AMD 64 3800, ok not fast for some but should do the trick right?) and more importantly 2x 7600GTs (XFX 570Mhz Edition 256Mb)

Here's the thing: I was expecting performance in GTL to be waaaaay better than before (3200+/1x 6600GT) and, well it is...sorta..BUT; Some tracks I am still getting really shitty FPS-e.g. at Mondello and especially Nurb, even with a small amount of cars for example in the Porsche lovers challenge, I get 22FPS at the start!! ughhh If I turn shadows down to medium it seems to get rid of the prob
I used to have everything on high except shadows on med, but though "hell, i should be able to crank it all up FULL" so I did. Some tracks, Monza, Spa etc, no probs, everything on full, 8XFSAA/16AF and high quality in control panel ( I mean that IS why I got SLI so I can run the eye candy AND get good FPS) i am getting great framerates, from around 35 to anywhere over 80FPS.

So basically I am now thinking 'has to be memory" as I only have IGb of "value" memory-overclocking the CPU does nothing nor does trying different drivers etc . So basically this longish post is to try and get some confirmation from anyone with similar experience, because right now I am shitting myself thinking I have wasted my money, but then I go and play something like F.E.A.R. with everything (including soft shadows) enabled with 16AF and I get 90% FPS over 40FPS....how can this be?

Is GTL really that much of a memory eater? Or is it my GFX memory (256Mb on both cards which from what I've read still means 256Mb with SLI right?)
Yes I know all about the PLR tweaks and none of that really changes much, not significantly anyway.

Any opinions would be deeply appreciated thx

[Bob Dunlop]

I have a Logitech G15 keyboard w/ the LCD display,and on that display it tells me my CPU and RAM usage(very handy).Now..I have an FX60 processor(Dual Core 2.8) and 2 gigs Corsair 3500 Pro Low latency ram and a nVidia 7950 card and in GT Legends sometimes I see my CPU and RAM usage go well over 50% and FPS go down to the 40's at the tracks you mentioned...That tells me you prolly need more processing and RAM because this game really does'nt seem to tax my video card at all and it should'nt yours either.
I run 8x AA And 16xAF @ 1920x 1080 @ 32 bit and have everything in the game maxed except I turn off trackside characters.
By myself I usually run up to 35 ai cars and the lowest I ever see is in the 40's except on some converted tracks(mostly rFactor) like Trois or Mills where I have to do the same as you and turn shadows down to medium,but I think thats just because of poorly done conversions.
Once again my guess is Processing and RAM are bottlenecking on your machine.
Hope this helps.

My specs:
2 Western Digital 10,000 rpm Raptor HD's in Raid Zero
ASUS A8N32-SLI DELUXE mobo
AMD FX 60
2 GIGS Corsair 3500 Pro
nVidia 7950
Creative XFI sound card
Hyper 580 watt Pwr supply

[macwun77]

Thanks for your reply-it's greatly appreciated and helpful.
Yes, I'm guessing it is especially the RAM causing me to get crap FPS, though I think you may be righ the CPU comes into it too, though I have tried successfuly overclocking my CPU to 2800Mhz with HTT/FSB of 300Mhz and no FPS gains, or at least very minimal. That's why I think it's RAM related, as I only have 1 Gb and it is only Value Select Corsair RAM.

I already have a pair of TwinXMS RAM sitting here but its only 2x256, but next week I will have 1Gb of TwinXMS match pair RAM modules, so I am hoping that will help.

I was mainly trying to get confirmation of my suspicions, and you have confirmed them. Thanks for replying, I really do appreciate it mate :-)

Cheers. Will let you know how it goes when I get the better RAM too :-)

[David Wright]

I'm not convinced GTL needs more than 1GB of RAM. If you take your example of Porsche Lovers at Nurburgring, like you I find that by reducing shadows from full to medium I get a 60% increase in frame-rate at the back of the grid. I'd be surprised if much RAM was needed to handle full shadows.

Of course if you routinely run 36 AI then 2GB might help.

It will be interesting to see if your upgrade helps :)

[Bob Dunlop]

Actually adding the 2nd gig did wonders for my racing games.All my shootem up games ran fine on 1 gig.
Now...one thing I did notice is that there was little or no difference between my 2 gis of Kingston value ram($99.00) and my $300.00 super duper ram. LOL
In fact my buddy who builds gaming machines told me there would be no difference....but noooo...the expert/genious that I am knew better and was convinced that the super duper low latencey ram would be much better!LOL
Now... the difference in ram did show up w/ the 3dmark programs,but who gives a flyin shit about 3dmark scores cause they have no bearing on racing games.
One other observation...my dual core FX60 runs circles around my old single core FX57(esp. in racing games) even though GTL does'nt properly use both cores.
That observation seems to be true for almost all my games.

[macwun77]

I'm not convinced GTL needs more than 1GB of RAM. If you take your example of Porsche Lovers at Nurburgring, like you I find that by reducing shadows from full to medium I get a 60% increase in frame-rate at the back of the grid. I'd be surprised if much RAM was needed to handle full shadows.

Of course if you routinely run 36 AI then 2GB might help.

It will be interesting to see if your upgrade helps :)


Well, Bob said he sees his RAM usage go well over 50% - being that he has 2Gb RAM that would imply more than 1Gb is used?

It is strange though that I can run a game so intensive as FEAR with everything cranked up and get fantastic FPS, GTL seems to be a little strange in its performance. Nothing is constant, by that I mean, some tracks are great even with a full field of 24 cars (say in FIA champs for example) but others are crap, and yet other tracks which are only glitchy in certain spots, like Donnington GP;This track is fine except when going down the back straight under the dunlop tyre approaching the chicane-FPS drops to 28FPS during practice with no cars in front of me. Then during a race it can be fine some laps, other laps it's choppy as heck.

I guess what I am getting at is some of GTL's coding seems to be a little glitchy, other games/sims do not do this. but hey, I am not complaining, I love GTL and can live with the glitches, but I was just surprised when upgrading to SLI that my FPS were still crap, if only from time to time.

It's definately the shadows the culprit though, I have checked this again and again, dropping them to HIGH my FPS stays above 30FPS everywhere except at back of a full grid at race start where it can drop to 25 (still dissapointing that) and dropping them to medium i get over 30fps everywhere and above 40 most of the time. Pity, cause I just love the more "realistic" feel of the full shadow option, as it doesn't feel right going under the bridge at monza say, and the car stays fully lit instead of going dark, etc etc..

shutting up now lol

[Bob Dunlop]

From my experience...F.E.A.R and COD2 and Oblivion and games like those seem to be more GPU and video memory intensive than racing sims.
According to nVidia...my 7950 dual gpu card is equivalent to your 2 7600GT's in SLI,so really the only difference in our machines seems to be processor and ram.
Like I say,GTL is a piece of cake on my machine so I think your video solution is fine for this game,just lacking in CPU and memory.
BTW the "Split frame rendering 2" option gives me about 20 more FPS.
Make sure you try EVERY setting on your video cards.
Also...overclocking has never gained me that much either except w/ 3dmark scores.

[macwun77]

From my experience...F.E.A.R and COD2 and Oblivion and games like those seem to be more GPU and video memory intensive than racing sims.
According to nVidia...my 7950 dual gpu card is equivalent to your 2 7600GT's in SLI,so really the only difference in our machines seems to be processor and ram.
Like I say,GTL is a piece of cake on my machine so I think your video solution is fine for this game,just lacking in CPU and memory.
BTW the "Split frame rendering 2" option gives me about 20 more FPS.
Make sure you try EVERY setting on your video cards.
Also...overclocking has never gained me that much either except w/ 3dmark scores.

Oh I do.....out of curiosity do you have gammacorrectAA and transparencyAA on or off?

Agreed ..overclocking doesn't seem to make that much difference, although I suppose it depends....

When you say CPU lacking, what do you reckon is needed? Default speed of my 3800 is 2.4Ghz...
Dual Core? Definately my next step but I've just spent a small fortune on new case, cpu, 2 vid cards and a bunch of other stuff...it never ends does it? lol

LOL another question;what drivers do you find best for GTL? Despite bad reports I find 91.47 run best for me, even though I hate the new control panel.

[Bob Dunlop]

LOL you're right it NEVER ends!
Gamma is on,transparency is off because I could'nt see it doing anything...even on my 37" monitor at 1920x1080.
Running the 91.47's...they work great for me.(best so far for my 7950)
I think dual core is the way to go...all my games run alot better w/ my FX60 than they did w/ my FX57(single core).

[macwun77]

LOL you're right it NEVER ends!
Gamma is on,transparency is off because I could'nt see it doing anything...even on my 37" monitor at 1920x1080.
Running the 91.47's...they work great for me.(best so far for my 7950)
I think dual core is the way to go...all my games run alot better w/ my FX60 than they did w/ my FX57(single core).


37"!!!!! Holy crap!!! Are you really short sighted or do you just sit in the house across the street while you drive ? :roflmao:

[David Wright]

For current racing games I don't see any point in dual core processors, nor SLI. But I think its fair to say Bob and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum regarding games hardware. My new system (excluding monitor which I didn't replace) cost less than Bob's processor.

When seeking advice you probably need to find someone with a similar mindset to your own. Given you have an SLI rig, I'd go with Bob's advice rather than mine :)

[Bob Dunlop]

Here's my 37" 1920 x 1080 LCD
http://users.adelphia.net/~vacobob/images/so.jpg

[Snowcat]

:shocking: Holy heck! :shocking:

That's one hell of a monitor you got there!

Considering the "recommended" viewing distance for a bog standard 17" is about 4' - 5' from the glass. You should be driving in the next room with that.... :eek::

[macwun77]

Here's my 37" 1920 x 1080 LCD
so.jpg (http://users.adelphia.net/%7Evacobob/images/so.jpg)


Sweet rig dude :eek::

[racingfan1]

I'm not so much worried about the screen as I am the tower sitting there. I WANT ONE!!!! haha nice

[macwun77]

Well after some extensive experimenting and still no improvement in performance I thought I'd try the only thing I haden't yet tried:- disabling SLI.

GTL runs faster!!!! WTF??? Nvidia I am now in *pissed off if I am being ripped off* mode. Other games which are SLI optimised are great, hence my confusion with FEAR, COD2 etc. These games are SLI optimised but GTL apparently doesn't like SLI.

Hopefully in the future the drivers will address this...otherwise maybe I should sell my 2 7600GTs and get 1 x 7900GT or GTX (need more cash arghhhh)

[vrmx]

I say one good gfx beats two average...

And I don't see the point of getting two middle class gfx's for SLI so sell your cards and get a proper one ;).

[MAD-MINI]

Man Your complaining about 20fps+ ;)
I get around 9-10 on most GTL tracks and around 30 on strava's tracks

[macwun77]

I say one good gfx beats two average...

And I don't see the point of getting two middle class gfx's for SLI so sell your cards and get a proper one ;).

Well, the reason I got these is because 1; I couldnt afford a top end 7900 and 2; these were XFX cards at a real budget price via bulk order. And they may be "middle range" but really I dont think they are that bad, 2x7600GTs rank No#13 in performance...
The issue isn't the cards anyway, It's GTL. We all know it has it's glitches and bugs...but why it runs with nearly the same FPS and worse with SLI is not really acceptable.

Man Your complaining about 20fps+ ;-)
I get around 9-10 on most GTL tracks and around 30 on strava's tracks
Actually, on some tracks with SLI enabled I get as low as 19, but as high as 100+ . With SLI disabled I get from 28 to well over 100FPS. That's with a field of 24 cars on tracks that seem to be the worse like NurbGP etc. But then I am running everything maxed except "disable all character animations=0" (damn those marshalls are ugly) and LOD to 100% (setting to 125% seems to drop FPS a little)

[macwun77]

I say one good gfx beats two average...

And I don't see the point of getting two middle class gfx's for SLI so sell your cards and get a proper one ;).


Oh and two 7600GTs beats one 7800 by a long shot :eek::

Dont take me seriously btw, Just teasing :-D

[David Wright]

An important thing to remember is a game will only run as fast as the slowest component in your system. The two key components are the CPU and the graphics card. If the CPU is the bottleneck for a particular program, increasing your graphics card power will not make the game run faster.

Traditionally racing sims have been more CPU dependent than 3rd person shooters. This is probably why you've seen a big improvement in titles like FEAR which are very graphics card dependent.

My own experience is when the GTL demo came out I had a 2 year old system with an nVidia 5600U and an XP 2500+. If I tried to run with DX8 or DX9 shaders my system was very graphics card limited. I replaced the 5600U with an X800GTO and got a massive improvement in frame-rate when using DX9 shaders. If I pushed the resolution above 1024x768 with AA and AF I did start to get a frame-rate hit so the graphics card was close to being a bottleneck.

A few months ago I got a 64 3500+ with a 7600GT. Even with the big boost in processing power, I can push the game to 1600x1200 with AA and AF without a hit. The graphics card doesn't seem to be the bottleneck.

One last point is that some (including myself until fairly recently) are not sure exactly what the CPU and graphics card do in terms of graphics. Some assume the graphics card does all the graphics.

I found out that the CPU constructs a 3D wireframe model of what you see and gives it to the graphics card. Vertex shaders flatten this 3D model to a 2D image by changing the lengths and angles of each wire (vertex). Next, pixel shaders cover the image with textures, add effects such as transparency or roughness (bump mapping) to these textures, and then lights each pixel.

So, when you turn up the eye candy to full in a racing sim with high detail tracks and cars, this puts a strain on both the CPU and the graphics card, because it puts extra polys into the 3D wireframe model.

[Lord_Verminaard]

Interesting reads here. My system was built with a budget in mind, I've got an A64 3700+ with an XFX 7900GT. This is on a micro-atx board with 1GB of Kingston Valueram. I do have a 10k RPM SCSI as my primary HD but that was hardware leftover from my last pc. :) I would like to replace it with a raptor to clean the case up a bit but that's down the road. I run GTL at 1280x1024 with everything MAXED and V-sync on (slow 19" LCD but I scored it for free) and framerate is acceptable. Gets a little choppy in areas when I have 20 cars on the track but normally it's in the high 40's most of the time.

I work for a small computer company, we also custom build PC's and whenever we have someone getting a top-end gaming machine, we always run it through some tests and post the benchmark on our "wall -o- fame". :D One thing I've noticed is that the dual-core socket AM2 chipset with DDR2 memory does not significantly affect performance over single-core A64's with standard DDR. The AM2 system was a 4200+ with 1GB of RAM and a 7900GT, the other was a 3800+ with a Gig of RAM. The AM2 machine only scored about 150 points higher in a total score of 8-thousand something on our benchmark. So really no noticable difference. We've also tested a machine that a customer wanted really expensive OCZ memory, just for fun we swapped out some Kingston Value and tested again, and the Kingston scored 2 points higher!!! LOL. I bought some cool aluminum heat spreaders for $5 and slapped them on my Kingston to make it look like fancy memory. Nobody will ever know! :) We've been using Kingston at our shop for nearly 10 years and the stuff is rock solid and we rarely ever have a problem with it.

Another thing you might want to check with your machine is what stuff you have running in the backround. On mine, I have no antivirus, no anti-spyware, auto updates turned off, nothing other than what is needed. Turn off all of the fancy windows XP "decorations". Increase pagefile to a static 1024 MB, and if you have a separate hard drive, put the pagefile on it and take it off your primary drive. Just simple things like these can add some FPS to your games. I still cant run Oblivion maxed though. :P Oh well. :)

Brendan

[rstratton]

my system has athlon 64 3200+(sckt939) 2 gis geil ddr400 ram and a 6600gt 128 mb card

[macwun77]

Update and probably the end of this thread:

GTL now runs absolutely awsome!!! I upgraded to better RAM (TWINX3200XL 2-2-2-5) and also tried out the Tweaks 'R' Us 84.56 drivers (had read a lot of good stuff on them) and hey presto!

I'm not sure what was going on, but I am now a happy GTL'er :D
Gone from getting 18-100 FPS with an average of around 35 to getting 50FPS at the start of a race from mid grid, 24 cars and average FPS is now well above 40!!!!

I knew my system had it in itself to run this good, but something was obviously bottlenecking my system seriously. Even those tracks/corners (eg. after the Dunlop tyre at DonnGP, Nurb GP, mondello) which were stuttery are fine now. I just did a race at Donnington GP and usually going down the back straight into the chicane, FPS dropped to around 29, now its staying above 50!

Nuff said. I am happy chappy :D :roflmao: :up:

Thanks to all who replied in here, it has been interesting. Expect to see me on the track soon online. Have not as yet run GTL online as I was waiting to finish my carreer. Just 3 challenges to go and Ill be done . Hooray :-D

On the track ill be using my real name: RJ MacGregor

Cheers

[SFDMALEX]

Bob mind sharing your desktop wallpaper?

[Bob Dunlop]

http://www.dieselstation.com/archives.html
This is a cool place for all kinds of wallpaper including the one I had:)
This first version is 1920 x1080 (widescreen)
Second pic is 1600x1200(square)

http://users.adelphia.net/~vacobob/images/pdt1.jpg
http://users.adelphia.net/~vacobob/images/pdt2.jpg

[SFDMALEX]

Great! Thanks mate. The Porker dash looks great on widescreen....and I've been having a hard time finding cool widescreen wallpapers.

Thanks agian!