View Full Version : Worst track change ever?
Gaiajohan
28 March 07, 15:52
What do you think is the worst track modification they ever made?
For me it's the Hockenheimring:
http://www.trackpedia.com/w/images/0/0f/Hockenheimring.jpg
And
Österreichring:
http://www.etracksonline.co.uk/Europe/Austria/a1osterreichringoverlay_map.gif
Things which are the same for both tracks
1. They were both very fast tracks.
2. Both tracks are redesigned by Hermann Tilke:down:
3. Both tracks don't give the sensation anymore they gave in past.
I really loved how F1 cars drove these tracks in the past. Especially the old Hockenheim. Who doesn't remember the Williams's driven by Montoya and R. Schumacher, they drove >340kmh. Beautiful slipstream fights. This track is just ruined.
The old Österreichring was very exciting for driver and spectator. DIfficult fast turns, long straights. Everything was in it. Only the pits which were quite small, I believe they were smaller than the ones at Monaco. But hey, it was such a great track.
What do you think, is the worst track modification?
skridge
28 March 07, 16:30
the old hock is my fave track ever. i've been racing it in sims a long long time.
never understood why they cut it in half
my next fave would be suzuka. that's a challenging track.
Wee Scot
28 March 07, 18:01
Worst track change ever? That's EASY! As a category--and thus, categorically :D --all chicanes inserted to slow cars down on countless classic circuits. Most great circuits have been ruined this way. In fact, I can't think of a single great circuit that has NOT been ruined this way! :cry:
lowndes888
28 March 07, 18:08
Le Mans for me. Chicane the Mulsanne straight?
I'll go and kill them!!!:twisted:
MAD-MINI
28 March 07, 18:16
Nurburgring, Easily the worst mod ever!! Wyh change the south part of the curcuit. Oh yeh saftey reasons :( If they wanted a new track build it somewhere else
The new bus-stop at Spa... :mad:
I miss the old Hockenheim... :(
PhilH959
28 March 07, 21:23
Nurburgring, Easily the worst mod ever!! Wyh change the south part of the curcuit. Oh yeh saftey reasons :( If they wanted a new track build it somewhere else
I was going to say this also...the track would be outstanding with the south loop....I have never found a game that has it, or video....only seen it on maps.
Phil
jayblue
28 March 07, 21:28
Was not impressed when they altered imola after Senna and Ratzenbergers tragic accident's in 1994, the character of the circuit just isn't the same now.
lowndes888
28 March 07, 21:32
Was not impressed when they altered imola after Senna and Ratzenbergers tragic accident's in 1994, the character of the circuit just isn't the same now.
Victim of the Track Tsunami called "Chicane":roflmao:
PeterRST
29 March 07, 07:32
For me it's the Hockenheimring:
I was about to say that even before reading your post.
Sidewinder16
29 March 07, 08:32
Imola after they redone the Variante Alta chicane in 2005:mad:. The old Variante Alta is how a chicane should be done.
I also have to agree with Hockenhiem but the new one isn't too bad.
File 1993
29 March 07, 08:41
Hockenheim... Why did they destroyed the straight :(
An ex Catholic Priest ran down the straight and that was the end of that! No that was Silverstone! It was a crazed spectator that wandered around for about half an hour and nobody could catch him because the straight was so long and impossible to police!
Gaiajohan
29 March 07, 12:01
Well one of the few famous circuits they didn't ruin are Mosport park and Zandvoort.
Silverstone, they ruined it totally. I'm not liking the new Nurb either.
Kris123
29 March 07, 14:19
Monza they ruined the oval part . speedway was really fun
high speed addict
29 March 07, 16:34
LeMans. I cant believe how can they ruin such a great track by inserting freaking chicanes on the main straight! Takes away so much pleasure watching cars go 350+. They say its for safety reasons, well it doesnt mater if you crash at 350 or 300 you are gonna die anyway! Besides the track could be modified so even if for some reason you cant stop before the turn, the track continues ahead instead of there beeing a wall. And as a result brakes suffer much more of those chicanes than they would if there was just a long straight followed by a corner. I mean whats the point of having race circuits if you cant max your car out? You cant drive that fast on public roads and you cant on race tracks, what gives? In the past there were epic battles fought between Ferrari and Porsche on the old layout track, now it has lost it soul. It goes the same for any other original high speed track. Hockenheim is also a very sad story. These smartasses who redesign them should be beat real good.:mad:
One thing i think it would be interesting to discuss is the REASONS behind why
a particular track was changed and HOW was it changed to fulfill such reasons.
Imola is obvious, after such a weekend... but Hockenheim, for example, mhh...
In the early 2000s, F1 officials demanded a shortening of the 6.8 km track,
threatening to discontinue to race here, moving to new sites in Asia and
elsewhere. The state government of Baden-Württemberg secured the
financing of the redesign by Hermann Tilke for the 2002 German Grand Prix.
The stadium section remained mainly intact, despite a new surface and a
tighter Turn 1 ("Nordkurve"). However, the circuit was dramatically shortened,
with the long, sweeping forest section chopped off in favour of more tight
corners. There is a great deal of criticism for the redesigning of the track,
however, the tight hairpin following the very long back straight offers an
overtaking possibility.
Gaiajohan
29 March 07, 19:47
One thing i think it would be interesting to discuss is the REASONS behind why
a particular track was changed and HOW was it changed to fulfill such reasons.
Imola is obvious, after such a weekend... but Hockenheim, for example, mhh...
I thought the reason was that communication was lost between the drivers and pitcrew around the Ostkurve, because of the large distance between it. Besides this also some treehuggers wanted to stop the cars driving through the forest.
Wee Scot
29 March 07, 20:12
For what it's worth, Imola was emasculated the way it was because there was a geographical limitation to changing Tamburello (a creek behind the concrete wall against which Senna lost his life). They couldn't widen the runoff area, so instead they added the cheesy left/right/left-left/right curves between the start line and Tosa to force the cars to slow down. The second "Villenueve" combination is particularly galling because it needlessly diminishes Tosa as a decent outbraking/overtaking corner. :mad: :rolleyes:
....wait till you see what they've done to Barcelona for 2007. :down:
Piero Cursa
30 March 07, 03:19
snowy - there was a crazed man wandering the back straight at hockenheim in 2000, during Rubens Barrichello's first F1 win...
eric r - i agree - the new chicane before the final corner at catalunya destroys the flow of that final section, however, it's being said this will allow for better overtaking at turn 1, as the turbulence off that final turn prevented the cars from getting close enough to draft down the frontstretch...
Other changes I don't like -
The final chicane added to Magny-Cours (in 2002)
The Casino chicane for a few years (thank goodness) at Gilles Villeneuve in the mid 1990s
The parking lot at Caesar's Palace into the Vegas GP ('81 & '82)
and meanwhile, Fuji has been completely destroyed...
Freddyfartbox
30 March 07, 03:26
What's happened to Fuji?
Wee Scot
30 March 07, 04:17
The final chicane added to Magny-Cours (in 2002)
YES, that was a complete abortion! The rest of the track has some nice flowing sections, and then the drivers had to stand on the brakes and slam over the curbing to make that last tight right. Ridiculous! The change they made in recent years (and reflected in the current GTR2 version) gives a much better result.
Piero Cursa
30 March 07, 04:21
hermann tilke, the guy responsible for the chop job at hockenheim, redid the layout between 2003 & 2005, and i don't like the result - or the f1 tracks he's done (sepang, bahrain, shangai, istanbul) - they just don't seem to flow correctly to me... he also redid the first corner at the nurburgring gp circuit & is designing the up and coming abu dhabi & korean gp circuits for f1. he's also doing additional changes to catalunya (barcelona), monza, silverstone, & the nurburgring again... this guy can't design a track...
Freddyfartbox
30 March 07, 04:49
(sepang, bahrain, shangai, istanbul)
The only circuit I don't really like out of those is Shanghai, I hate the 1st turn, it's way too long. Sepang flows really well, lots of 3rd gear corners, and I quite like Bahrain with it's different layouts. On the subject of track alterations, I gotta say Mt Panorama with the addition of the chase is an excellent alteration, although it does limit top speed down Conrod Straight (still hit almost 300kmh in a V8Supercar though). The end of the 2007 V8Supercar season will see the demise of one of the best tracks in the nation. Oran Park is being bulldozed to make way for a housing development (bastards, that's one of fave tracks of all time). I can't believe why anyone would want to destroy something so unique.
We need a new Hugenholtz !!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hugenholtz
someone said they didn't like the new bus stop are we talking the 04 bus stop or the 07 bus stop or both??
Not all alterations are a bad thing, if red bull had done this to the a1 ring it would be a good circuit, a little fiddley before remus but good none the less.
Hockenheim is horrible in it's current form, that said i would have changed it, but only after where the first chicane was it would have gone right......
Ralph_B
30 March 07, 17:17
Have absolutely to agree with Hockenheim. It was a great circuit with a phantasic flow in the past, even with the chicanes at the long straight trough the forrest. In the current layout it is a total Mickey-Mouse circuit.
Also have to agree to Wee Scot about the general tendency to emasculate nearly every fast track with narrow chicanes. A typical example is Imola. I loved the old layout driven in the late 60th, but the later build chicanes ruin the whole track and disturb the the flow completely, even the rest of the layout is almost the same.
I fully understand the intention, to make the tracks a bit slower and less dangerous. Todays cars are much faster than 20 or 30 years ago. But I don't see any need to do it with hairpinlike chicanes and turns, you can only drive in first or second gear.
Gaiajohan
30 March 07, 17:24
I know Catalunya will get a chicane before the last corner.
But MOnza... What does that Tilke want to do with Monza!:mad: :mad: :mad:
Catalunya:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Circuit_Catalunya_2007.png
Spa:
I don't know what's better
Both 2004 and 2007 chicanes suck imo
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Circuit_Spa_2007.png
2007 is better than 2004 imo, but they ruined the exit years before by making it straighter. 2007 bus stop will be better for f1 though.
I haden't seen the barcelona chicane before and that ruins the best corner on the track. But i'd make big changes to barcelona just not that change.
imo there is something worst than chicanes and thats tarmac run off.
whats your source of track maps?? thats not one i have.
Fully agree with the previous posts: every track that is changed by the infamous Hermann Tilke !
That of course include the before mentioned Hockenheim carnage and the most recent victim - the poor Fuji circuit which was a great circuit before Hermann Tilke ruined it.
Herman Tilke is the undertaker of modern racing circuits and racing in general, as all new circuits he is making worldwide are one worst than the other (a slight exception to the rule may be Istanbul - he must have had a bad day and made a decent circuit by mistake).
How old is Hermann Tilke anyway ? I'm longing for the day he either retire or just peacefully die of old age, God bless his soul - so he cannot do any more harm to racing circuits all over the world.
Here you go, he'll become 52 in december:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Tilke
i like some of the new fuji and i don't like some of istanbul, the problem has a lot to do with f1 dictating what they need to make good racing and everything else is left to suffer.
Somewhere else thats been ruined is paul ricard, if they put the grass back it'll be a great track but as it is, all those blue lines just look odd.
psyfungi
31 March 07, 22:03
...Oran Park is being bulldozed to make way for a housing development...
And modifying Amaroo Park from race circuit to housing estate is a pretty bad "alteration". :down:
BTW: GTL version of Oran Park is great! :up: Dunno if it's been done for GTR2, but probably.
Freddyfartbox
1 April 07, 05:44
http://www.nogripracing.com/details.php?filenr=1949
Oran Park for GTR2.;)
hermann tilke, the guy responsible for the chop job at hockenheim, redid the layout between 2003 & 2005, and i don't like the result - or the f1 tracks he's done (sepang, bahrain, shangai, istanbul) - they just don't seem to flow correctly to me... he also redid the first corner at the nurburgring gp circuit & is designing the up and coming abu dhabi & korean gp circuits for f1. he's also doing additional changes to catalunya (barcelona), monza, silverstone, & the nurburgring again... this guy can't design a track...
Here's Abu Dhabi (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b43/nascarnetboggy/shot0008.jpg)
It doesn't look that bad to me...
:rolleyes: ROFLMAO!!! :D :roflmao: :D :roflmao: :D
Was at Formula1.com last night and saw Fuji....and I almost cried......Tilke has DESTROYED Another Perfectly great Track.......
He's done EXACTLY the Same thing he did to Hockenheim........Absolutely DESTROYED it......it's not even worth Racing on anymore........
He took a Unique Track....and turned it into another Tilke-Drome......It's Now just a Long Straight with a bunch of Meaningless tighter then they need to be Turns.......It's not Fuji anymore...he ripped it's heart out.......
I'm not totally Anti-Tilke there were a TON of things he could've done to make Fuji "safer" and still retain it's Soul...but he choose not to.....
Now the Last Turn is GONE....totally Destroyed...probably never to be seen again.............
it's all meaningless now.......I know why Americans are so Apathetic for a Formula 1 Race.......they know Tilke will get his hands onto one of our Tracks...........
assen is another one that been ruined.
some tracks do need changing though. the indianapolis road course is horrible and magny cours could do with some alterations but not bt tilke and co.
Gaiajohan
2 April 07, 13:09
First the Hungarian GP was one of the most boring ones.
If Tilke and Ecclestone go through ruining circuits, and build new horrbile circuits, it could become the most exciting one.
Phil Hagenbauer
2 April 07, 13:42
Kyalami, destroyed. Monaco, destroyed. Hockenheim, destroyed. Österreichring, destroyed. Nürburgring, destroyed. Monza, destroyed. Imola, destroyed. Keimola, destroyed. Zandvoort, destroyed. Salzburgring, almost destroyed. Le Mans, destroyd, Sachsenring, destroyed. I´ll better stop now, I´m cryin already, really
:cry: :(
Only option left, drive GPL, that´s racing! Just Great ;)
Just to take the devil's advocate role for one second (please don't lynch me yet)... :D
How do older cars perform in the new circuits and viceversa,
how do newer cars perform in the old circuits. Racing SIMs are
the only way to test this since it doesn't require an entire crew
of road workers and engineers to find out. I honestly think that
some tracks actually became better for modern racing with the
changes that were implemented... a good example: Zandvoort.
I was at the A1GP race, and the track fits this class like a glove,
the old version of Zandvoort wouldn't have made it so competitive.
Seriously guys... not all changes are for the worse. Yes, there have
been some blasphemy here and there, but some changes are good.
And now I remove the devil's advocate cape... any thoughts here?
xanaxkamikaze
2 April 07, 15:46
I agree with Piero Cursa that Mt. Fuji has been destroyed. I've only raced on this track with Gran Turismo 4, but the 90's and 80's version of the track are so much better. The new version took out the long sweeping corner at the end of the lap and replaced it a new set of turns.
The new version honestly isn't that bad to race on, but just like with Hockenheim, the original and traditional format of the track is lost forever. Video games are the last savior for lost track formats. Like Spa 1967... heh
the oval in pennsylvania was one on my favorites and now it's a house estate i believe.
Betty Swollox
2 April 07, 18:20
To be fair Hockenheim had to change, they needed to get more seating in to get more tickets sold and felling trees there was always a battle. It's a shame but money talks. Monza is similar as it's in the park, but then again it is quite a borefest TBH. Even watching old races after a few laps in are dull, apart from those few glorious fight backs ala Clark.
The Tilke circuits all lack a series of turns that need courage and skill. One off fast ones followed by over tight "braking opportunities." The nearest he has got so far is Istanbul with the turn 7 to 9 series. ;)
Myself I think the one circuit that could have survived with minor changes was the Österreichring, Bosch needed tightening up as it was very dangerous.
SparkyMonololak
2 April 07, 18:36
Silverstone.
Interesting opinions... While I do agree that many good tracks have been destroyed with redesigns, I also realize the fact that otherwise the racing would have been ended sooner or later. (and very few F1 fanse remember tracks that have been part of the season and nowadays are abandoned rusting quietly.)
I think most interesting fact is that many of these Rebuilt Circuits listed here, had gone already majore redesigns decades ago, but no one is alive or interested anymore to tell how those tracks were back then...
Here's some list:
- Nürburgring: Südsleife chopped off --> 1971 complete redesign --> New Nürburgring.
- Spa: 1970's complete redesign (Track lost half of it's total length!)
- Fuji International Speedway: 1969-1970 removal of the legendary banking. --> adding chicanes --> TilkeDrome.
- Hockenheim: Original 1939 profile can be seen here: http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/t2.htm Which has at least one part that most of ppl didn't even know that it existed.
Dzul.....Just to counter your Devil's Advocate.....
the Reason there is such great racing at some of these tracks is because over the years as these tracks have been chopped and what not.....The Car designers started redesigning their Cars to better perform on them.......
The Drivers in the early part of the Safety Movement were under the misguided impression that it was the Circuits that were Dangerous to them...and NOT the Cars.....therefore instead of telling their Teams to redesign the Cars so they were safer....they told the Organizers to Fix the Tracks..when in reality, for the most part..there was nothing really wrong with the Tracks......there are, of course, some exceptions........So over the years car design has been influenced by Tilke-Dromes.....The Cars are made to run up through the Gears as fast as humanly possible and then back down through them and to stop in insane distances..........
I'd like to believe that, had the Tracks stayed the same, we'd have cars that are Much, Much Safer then they are now.......Just as I believe that there is no reason why Modern Formula 1 Cars couldn't race on the Nordschliefe....
Freddyfartbox
3 April 07, 02:41
I believe this is the re-designed Fuji. Correct me if I'm wrong.
:rolleyes: Very interesting point Fitch... haven't looked at it that way.
It makes total human sense to blame the environment first... ;)
=MM= Simmons
4 April 07, 09:53
I thought the reason was that communication was lost between the drivers and pitcrew around the Ostkurve, because of the large distance between it. Besides this also some treehuggers wanted to stop the cars driving through the forest.
Here they are Find them and....
http://www.glinx.com/~djbishop/treehuggers
Seriously, I can imagine that some tracks are simply too long for non
F1 classes like the Clio-cup or Polo-cup. I used to travel with a
Renault 5 GTTurbo racer who raced in the Benelux and a lap at Spa took
over 4 minutes and we allmost fell asleep looking at the race standing
at a part of the track.
Concerning Hockenheim they could have kept the "long" version for
the F1 and use the shortcut for other classes. I think its a very
stupid move, they changed a very exiting track into a average track. :mad:
Simmons
Gaiajohan
4 April 07, 10:16
Here they are Find them and....
http://www.glinx.com/~djbishop/treehuggers
Seriously, I can imagine that some tracks are simply too long for non
F1 classes like the Clio-cup or Polo-cup. I used to travel with a
Renault 5 GTTurbo racer who raced in the Benelux and a lap at Spa took
over 4 minutes and we allmost fell asleep looking at the race standing
at a part of the track.
Concerning Hockenheim they could have kept the "long" version for
the F1 and use the shortcut for other classes. I think its a very
stupid move, they changed a very exiting track into a average track. :mad:
Simmons
For other classes there aready was a short version.
As you can see on the map below.
That's an old image from google earth, but a beautiful one.
The worst is (or will be) Bristol Motor Speedway it was (is) perfect. Now they want to put progressive banking on it (It will ruin one of nascars best tracks)
Ferrari248
9 April 07, 09:07
Hockenheim
now the only 'origianal' speed track left is monza.
stupid idea to change hockenheim
I think the worst chenges had been on all faster tracks... Hockenheim, for example, but even the old Monza... and I hate last year's imola (now they're building new boxes and had "erased" variante bassa... now it's better, but the Tosa corner isn't the old Tosa, where Villeneuve and Pironi challenged in 1982...)
however, why can't they build an old style circuit? safety is important, but we mustn't kill the show... risk is part of challenge!!!
safety is important, but we mustn't kill the show... risk is part of challenge!!!
thats probobly the best point ive read all day,
i understaand they want the drivers to be safe,
But dont make it impossible to make a mistake,
its like a full scale scalextric set :rolleyes:
Take a look at this:wave: :drive2: :drool: Just found it out, and made it like this for ya
Give the old track back:mad:
lowndes888
3 May 07, 13:53
Take a look at this:wave: :drive2: :drool: Just found it out, and made it like this for ya
Give the old track back:mad:
That's old Spa right m8?
That's old Spa right m8?
Yep, it's the old Spa.. And a large part of that blue lines you can drive. I've been there three years ago.
For example, you can get sooo close to the current Malmedy corner.. Around 100 meters for the corner after the straight...
Stavelot and La Source also...:( But you can't get on the current circuit...
This is the corner of Malmedy, and you can get until that pink marker :(
Google earth also delivers photo's of how some parts of the old track now look like.. The roads look very good for a Wallony road
DiRTY ADAM
10 July 07, 19:46
basically any track that has been ruined by a chicane. Ex. Hockenheim, Watkins Glen, and many more.
purplesalad
10 July 07, 20:04
spa probably because in the 30s-70s it was a long highspeed track in the 80s they totally changed i liked it before but for safety concerns they changed it
Freddyfartbox
11 July 07, 10:06
I prefer the modern version of Spa, the old layout wasn't the least bit challenging, just alot of long fast straights. You need corners to challenge the drivers and provide passing.
hoboholic
11 July 07, 10:57
basically any track that has been ruined by a chicane. Ex. Hockenheim, Watkins Glen, and many more.
i think that some tracks have been improved by chicanes,
example: Bathurst
murrys was probably the most dangerous corner in australia, one wrong move, and your out for the next 3 years, when the chase was made, a whole new challenge was made :)
DiRTY ADAM
11 July 07, 17:34
i think that some tracks have been improved by chicanes,
example: Bathurst
murrys was probably the most dangerous corner in australia, one wrong move, and your out for the next 3 years, when the chase was made, a whole new challenge was made :)
I understand where your coming from but I really don't feel that a chicane was nessecary at a track like Watkins Glen. Personally I don't know why I don't like the Watkins Glen chicane. Its where I make up time most when racing there. I guess it just doesn't seem to fit the track.
hoboholic
12 July 07, 06:47
depending on where you put a chicane determines whether it will be better,
i think the chicane was put there to help slow the NASCARS before the sort of long double apex turn (or whatever)
i think NASCAR should have ran on the long circuit :up:
scca1981
13 July 07, 17:58
depending on where you put a chicane determines whether it will be better,
i think the chicane was put there to help slow the NASCARS before the sort of long double apex turn (or whatever)
i think NASCAR should have ran on the long circuit :up:
And make them turn left and right 4 more times? nonsense :p
lowndes888
13 July 07, 18:51
And make them turn left and right 4 more times? nonsense :p
:lol:
What about chicaned ovals???:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao: They'll have to turn left and right
File 1993
13 July 07, 18:53
LOL, they won't be able to stop! :D
Jonny683
13 July 07, 19:32
Their gonna change Bristol into Progressive banking? OMG!!! The racing their will be horrible!!! Repaving it is fine, But changing the banking?!?! What the hell is the track owner smoking?!?!
hoboholic
14 July 07, 09:04
Their gonna change Bristol into Progressive banking? OMG!!! The racing their will be horrible!!! Repaving it is fine, But changing the banking?!?! What the hell is the track owner smoking?!?!
i heard about that during the bristol COT race, what does that mean?
they will turn left and right on a figure 8 :roflmao:
demo derby style
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