SMS's Community-Funded Race Sim

[IanBell]

Originally Posted by vondutch51

Question for you Ian. I have seen some comments at VirtualR stating that the content for C.A.R.S. has already been decided. Can you confirm or deny that? In the VirtualR article posted a few hours ago it states that "The studio has completed all the legal work required for the project to kick off." Does this include content. If so doesn't that limit the amount of input the community will have on the direction of the project?

It hasn't and it can't be as that's down to the investors. What we are doing is providing a base car from each of the main types (single seater, endurance, historic etc) so the investors can feedback on input, handling FFB etc.

The legal work was for the WMD system itself that's completely unique so required a lot of work.

[vondutch51]

Thanks for the quick reply Ian. I wish you an your team the best of luck on this project. I'm excited about this and definitely plan to invest what I can.

[redi]

Just to let you know, C.A.R.S. will get its own subforum soon

[johnbergqvist]

Originally Posted by redi

Just to let you know, C.A.R.S. will get its own subforum soon

What's gonna happen to all the posts here?

[redi]

Originally Posted by johnbergqvist

What's gonna happen to all the posts here?

Of course they will be moved to the new forum.

[sagedavid]

Ian,

God knows my interest in your project and far from me to attack you, but ...
Son, don't you feel some guilt knowing the worries faced by players on the FFB, whatever the brand of their wheel, or you consider that it is the sole responsibility of EA ?

Father David

Do you think it's possible that a vote of the "players investors" directs the work of the team towards the development of a patch for S2U in ​​this direction at least ?

You will understand the ironic tone of my speech and I hope you won't take it wrong, but you will also understand that my words barely conceal the disappointment of some players here ...

End of the nearly but not really off-topic, as it is normal that I ask myself some questions about ethics in your business, as a prospective investor...

I hope not to be banished from the forum for the crime of lese majesty

Friendly

[mfxfgr]

Ian, how many dx11 featured in Crysis 2 is also featured in C.A.R.S.?
And any more feature this game have that other doesn't?

[MEFF1091]

Ian, did you changed the smoke effects in c.a.r.s ? By The way the game driver san francisco really has cool smoke effects. you know shift has a mediocre smoke effect. i am really looking forward to have great dx11 effects for c.a.r.s. and waiting for invest.

check the vid: 0.54 - 0.58 and a viper 2.30 - 2.34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISwYbLAMZg4

[IanBell]

In response to both of the above posts. C.A.R.S. is being developed in association with the investors. It might be an 18 month development cycle. We'll be including everything we can from what the investors request but it won't start shipping to investors with more than a core base which we use to build upon together.

The intention is to nail that core base in terms of the basics like handling, input, FFB etc before adding frills.

[MEFF1091]

that is great! i knew that sms will use full potential for this game. thanx Mr.Ian.

[sagedavid]

Ok

[Scorz]

Originally Posted by IanBell

In response to both of the above posts. C.A.R.S. is being developed in association with the investors. It might be an 18 month development cycle. We'll be including everything we can from what the investors request but it won't start shipping to investors with more than a core base which we use to build upon together.

The intention is to nail that core base in terms of the basics like handling, input, FFB etc before adding frills.

[IanBell]

PS, we aren't underestimating the frills if my last post read a little that way. We're letting The Griff loose on this and nothing but, ably aided and abetted by three other render coders with an average of 16 man years render coding each.

We fully aim to be unbeatable come ship date (release) and it will be a great journey to create this together.

[Kaerar]

Frills look poofy anyway, bodykits for race cars are another matter

[ermo]

Ian,

Redi pointed something out to me yesterday that I hadn't really considered.

I realize that this could be read as being a little offensive, but that's not the intent at all; I'm simply really curious about whether you see an opportunity for investors to get involved with the kind of testing and tweaking of physics data that can be seen in various mods that sprung up after S1 and S2U were released, seeing as few of us fans(/nuts?) are going to try to get to the data anyway?

I realize and respect that you employ very capable developers who have dedicated their careers to make a living off of implementing convincing physics in mass market driving/racing simulators, but as opposed to the normal development model (with its accompanying time/cost constraints), I'm wondering if not this represents an unique opportunity for you to try and see if crowdsourcing testing/tweaking the physics data QA actually works in practice?

Either way, we (the 'community') learn something about the intricacies of developing convincing physics (and to which extent data needs to be 'fudged' to get convincing and realistic results) and you get people/testers to actually pay to get the chance to help out with QA (and possibly even heighten the quality) of the end product?

I understand that this might also be something investors would get a chance to vote on, but from your point of view and given your experience in the driving/race simulator business, what is your personal position on this for C.A.R.S?

[MEFF1091]

Originally Posted by IanBell

PS, we aren't underestimating the frills if my last post read a little that way. We're letting The Griff loose on this and nothing but, ably aided and abetted by three other render coders with an average of 16 man years render coding each.

We fully aim to be unbeatable come ship date (release) and it will be a great journey to create this together.

i have really eagle eyes on driving physics and effects. i will try my best for investing and to feed back to get our dream game.

[johnbergqvist]

I might be jumping the gun a little bit, but tomorrow i'm gonna write down a good few points/suggestions/ideas which I think would work in the game.

Also, could someone maybe post something summarising the key points/decisions made in this thread so far?

[Griff]

Just to add to what Ian said about DX11 - I've probably been a little quiet here over the last few months while I focused on coding the DX11 renderer - all of our DX9 feature set is running on DX11, and that was not a small job, requiring few distractions - FXAA, depth of field, screen space ambient occlusion, motion-blur and shadows will be improved in DX11 initially, then additional features will be community driven. As well as progress updates here you can also follow me on Twitter (@Griff_) for my hourly/daily ups and downs in life and development

[johnbergqvist]

Originally Posted by Griff

Just to add to what Ian said about DX11 - I've probably been a little quiet here over the last few months while I focused on coding the DX11 renderer - all of our DX9 feature set is running on DX11, and that was not a small job, requiring few distractions - FXAA, depth of field, screen space ambient occlusion, motion-blur and shadows will be improved in DX11 initially, then additional features will be community driven. As well as progress updates here you can also follow me on Twitter (@Griff_) for my hourly/daily ups and downs in life and development

Just followed you

[FstrthnU]

Everyone here's been talking about physics, mechanics, and visuals, so how about sound? Is it going to be very different from Shift 2? Any changes to how you'll record/simulate the sounds? When I play Shift 2, it's loads better than GT5 or anything else I have, but it still doesn't quite sound like what I hear when I watch ALMS/GT1/GT3 races. I think the issue for me was clarity, the sounds were loud in Shift 2 but they weren't always clear (like the Aston Martin DBRS9 whined, but it was awfully rough). Sometimes, all the sound mixing caused sound errors too (mostly in GT3).

[Kaerar]

Gotta remember watching the race is very different to being in the cockpit. That's where I like how CryEngine does directional sound as it does it from source to camera viewpoint, minus the doppler effect (I believe).

[redi]

Actually I find S2U's sound a little disappointing, as I can clearly hear the steps in the engine sound pitch, as if the engine sound/revs is divided into very coarse steps. I also think that the sound often has little 'body', many cars sound like angry bees.

[bmanic]

As a sound engineer I can say that creating "realistic" sounds is a very hard task. The end results may also not be as exciting sounding as you would think. Most gamers base their "sound realism" on what they hear on TV, which is obviously completely false, but very few people have actually driven all those super cars in real life so that's all they have to base it on. There are many reasons why the TV sound is false. A lot of it has to do with the processing that happens to all sounds of a TV channel. There are some fairly complex DSP processes that squash the audio, equalize it and enhance the stereo image to artificial levels. All of these complex processes are there to make what you hear on TV more exciting, disregarding realism completely.

Another reason why getting realistic sounds is such a challenge is because we literally all hear sounds differently. It's because each of us have our ear's pinna (the outer part of the ear) and our head shaped in a different way. We are all unique. This changes the acoustic properties of each human being and thus forces the brain to adapt to your own specific changes.

We have all our own "unique frequency response" and localization cues. This is why most HRTF (head related transfer function) recordings, like with the Neumann dummy head, fail to impress because the Neumann dummy head is based on some average values. It might be good enough for some things but truly "realistic" is extremely hard to achieve.

Another big area of subjective opinion is the amount of distortion in the recordings. What we hear on TV can be fairly distorted while in real life we hear the car engine and surrounding sounds without distortion. The sounds are also quite muffled due to the helmet and cockpit.

An easy and quite quick way to get a convincing interior spatial sound for each car is to take an impulse response from the drivers position and use a simple convolution reverb to play it back. This is basically a "finger print" of the exact reverb characteristics of the interior of the car. This would yield far superior results to the current crop of generic reverb algorithms. The down side is the added processing power needed.

Anyhow, in short: Sound "realism" is extremely subjective and true realism might actually not be very exciting.

[redi]

Originally Posted by bmanic

As a sound engineer I can say that creating "realistic" sounds is a very hard task. The end results may also not be as exciting sounding as you would think. Most gamers base their "sound realism" on what they hear on TV, which is obviously completely false, but very few people have actually driven all those super cars in real life so that's all they have to base it on. There are many reasons why the TV sound is false. A lot of it has to do with the processing that happens to all sounds of a TV channel. There are some fairly complex DSP processes that squash the audio, equalize it and enhance the stereo image to artificial levels. All of these complex processes are there to make what you hear on TV more exciting, disregarding realism completely.

Another reason why getting realistic sounds is such a challenge is because we literally all hear sounds differently. It's because each of us have our ear's pinna (the outer part of the ear) and our head shaped in a different way. We are all unique. This changes the acoustic properties of each human being and thus forces the brain to adapt to your own specific changes.

We have all our own "unique frequency response" and localization cues. This is why most HRTF (head related transfer function) recordings, like with the Neumann dummy head, fail to impress because the Neumann dummy head is based on some average values. It might be good enough for some things but truly "realistic" is extremely hard to achieve.

Another big area of subjective opinion is the amount of distortion in the recordings. What we hear on TV can be fairly distorted while in real life we hear the car engine and surrounding sounds without distortion. The sounds are also quite muffled due to the helmet and cockpit.

An easy and quite quick way to get a convincing interior spatial sound for each car is to take an impulse response from the drivers position and use a simple convolution reverb to play it back. This is basically a "finger print" of the exact reverb characteristics of the interior of the car. This would yield far superior results to the current crop of generic reverb algorithms. The down side is the added processing power needed.

Anyhow, in short: Sound "realism" is extremely subjective and true realism might actually not be very exciting.

All true, but it does not apply to what I mentioned about the steps in engine pitch that I hear. Furthermore, since I drive a car myself I find that some cars in S2U really don't sound like cars but like electronically created engine sounds. The vintage Golf, for example, sounds more like a blaring cheap lawnmower than a car.

[redi]

Ian, Griff, do you have any new screenshots that you can show the world, preferably a car on track in some day and night lighting?

[Scorz]

Originally Posted by redi

Ian, Griff, do you have any new screenshots that you can show the world, preferably a car on track in some day and night lighting?

+1000!

Regarding SHIFT2's sound. Possibly one of the better sounding games but for me if you want to hear good sounds then the DRM mod for rFactor without a doubt has the finest most realistic sounds i have heard.

Check this video i did, right at the end i put just the sound of the car going through the gears and it gives me goosebumps It really is the best sounding sim car i have heard. 3:55 onwards. The mod with manual clutch and H-shifter for me is the most immersive set of sim cars ever released be it with sound, feel and physics. You can hear the awesome sounds throughout the video btw.

[e345spd]

"There are some fairly complex DSP processes that squash the audio, equalize it and enhance the stereo image to artificial levels."

This is true. You don't necessarily have to process those effects on an end users comp with prerecorded sounds, but with the sound engine in shift 2, you would.

"An easy and quite quick way to get a convincing interior spatial sound for each car is to take an impulse response from the drivers position and use a simple convolution reverb to play it back."

I have impulse responses for the stripped interior of a merc van (Trillium Lane), for instance. I doubt anyone at SMS is willing to capture impulse response/sine sweeps (ideally), edit and send through a deconvolution processor.
It would sound excellent if done properly and either you or I could provide the data for a few common variations, if necessary.

"electronically created engine sounds. The vintage Golf, for example, sounds more like a blaring cheap lawnmower than a car. "

Agreed. Again though, you cannot have full samples of the cars. Software generation is necessary, even just to reduce file size. That's not an excuse for the terrible sound of the golf though.

[mfxfgr]

Off-topic:
how about add some non-world class GT/Touring Car/Formula series to reduce the cost? GT-Asia(someone post so many photo at here), British GT, F2, BTCC, V8 Supercars, DTM.....
We have to remember:
IMSA - Forza
Super GT - GT
FIA GT - NFS
LM24H - GRID and dGT may be
ADAC N24 - GT
WTCC - Simbin

Although I believe most of them are not exclusive to their game, but it will be quite awesome for me(awkward for developer) to have ADAC N24 (GT banner on every cars!!)

Ian:
What 3D sound system we are using in SHIFT 2 and C.A.R.S.?

[IanBell]

Originally Posted by mfxfgr

Off-topic:
how about add some non-world class GT/Touring Car/Formula series to reduce the cost? GT-Asia(someone post so many photo at here), British GT, F2, BTCC, V8 Supercars, DTM.....
We have to remember:
IMSA - Forza
Super GT - GT
FIA GT - NFS
LM24H - GRID and dGT may be
ADAC N24 - GT
WTCC - Simbin

Although I believe most of them are not exclusive to their game, but it will be quite awesome for me(awkward for developer) to have ADAC N24 (GT banner on every cars!!)

Ian:
What 3D sound system we are using in SHIFT 2 and C.A.R.S.?

We use fmod so 5.1 and 7.1 are supported.

[e345spd]

It's pretty good, fmod. I like their approach for educators and non-commercial. The "engine designer" is kinda neat. The lack of time stretching is a little annoying.

In truth, nothing amazing is going to happen with end user game sounds for quite some time.

Shift 2 is about as good as it can get for now, a few models just needed some extra time and care.

[willow31]

Originally Posted by IanBell

We use fmod so 5.1 and 7.1 are supported.

Ian It's a big project and I expect that this project will be a very big success for your studio.

I have some questions:
1) Many years ago, you worked on a project called :Ferrari project.
<snip>



http://nsa02.casimages.com/img/2008/...5084016076.jpg
This project has disappeared when you have announced with EA Shift 1.
I would like to know if you use some assets in your future project?

2) You tell that game use dx11. How? A full use or a limit use like in all DX11 game (crysis2,dirt3,dirt2,f12010,metro2033 etc...)?

3) The lead platform is PC or console?

4) For sound renderer, Can we expect a support for EAX 5 (I know that Creative could release new generation of sound card)?

I ask because I think (maybe wrong) that sound is less good (I speak about sound effect like reverbation, positional 3d sound, etc...) than some years ago when many games use advanced sound effect provided by EAX 2,3,4,5.

5) Can I expect a release in a retail box like games since 30 years?

Very Very Good luck for your project

[e345spd]

EAX is really a mostly proprietary library of DSP-accelerated sound effects. Extensions to DS3D API, basically. It's not a 3d-position engine.

[redi]

Originally Posted by e345spd

EAX is really just a library of DSP-accelerated sound effects. Extensions to DS3D API, basically. It's not a 3d-position engine.

Yep. I have a Xonar card so I don't need EAX anyway Better have the game use the proper API and let the sound card driver do the rest. Software DSP FTW

[johnbergqvist]

Originally Posted by willow31

5) Can I expect a release in a box like games since 30 years?

Well if i invest i'll definitley push this one through haha Maybe for investors who pledge a certain amount?

[khildram]

Originally Posted by willow31

This project has disappeared when you have announced with EA Shift 1.

It was a game from Blimey! Games. Not SMS.

Following 10tacle's insolvency problems, Blimey also had troubles. Ian managed to save Blimey's business and assets by selling to Slightly Mad Studios (I think he created both).

I'd like to know what happenned to that Ferrari License too if that's not under NDA of course

[e345spd]

^^^ Yesss!

My m-audio wouldn't be any more pleased by EAX than I would, lol.

Xonar is really on a different level than creative. I've always thought of creative as being a fairly unprofessional quality level audio hardware company that employs cheap tricks to make sales.

[IanBell]

Originally Posted by khildram

It was a game from Blimey! Games. Not SMS.

Following 10tacle's insolvency problems, Blimey also had troubles. Ian managed to save Blimey's business and assets by selling to Slightly Mad Studios (I think he created both).

I'd like to know what happenned to that Ferrari License too if that's not under NDA of course

Correct.

On the Ferrari game, expect some interesting news very soon.

[kikie]

I was thinking of selling everything I have and stop gaming but after seeing this screenshot: and I believe it's from C.A.R.S, I think I'm going to keep my steering wheel and gaming pc.

[FstrthnU]

Originally Posted by kikie

I was thinking of selling everything I have and stop gaming but after seeing this screenshot: and I believe it's from C.A.R.S, I think I'm going to keep my steering wheel and gaming pc.

Well this may hold the dubious honor of being the first unofficial leak of content from C.A.R.S. Wherever this came from (and whatever this mysterious Le Mans Prototype is), this definitely made this an insta-investment for me

[Kaerar]

Audi R18 (not that mysterious ) and officially leaked by Ian

[redi]

Originally Posted by IanBell

On the Ferrari game, expect some interesting news very soon.

Do we need to make a new sub-forum for it?

[Mr. A]

Originally Posted by IanBell

It hasn't and it can't be as that's down to the investors. What we are doing is providing a base car from each of the main types (single seater, endurance, historic etc) so the investors can feedback on input, handling FFB etc.

The legal work was for the WMD system itself that's completely unique so required a lot of work.

Will you be providing any rally/rallycross type car and track in the first test builds?

[IanBell]

Originally Posted by Mr. A

Will you be providing any rally/rallycross type car and track in the first test builds?

No. We will probably focus on asphalt racing for cars unless the investors decide otherwise.

[redi]

Originally Posted by IanBell

No. We will probably focus on asphalt racing for cars unless the investors decide otherwise.

If C.A.R.S. will focus on asphalt racing and turns out to be successful, will you consider doing a cummunity-funded offroad sim after C.A.R.S. development has (largely) finished? Or is the 'study project' with the dirt racing of which you posted pictures some time ago already such an offroad racing sim that is being worked on?

[Mr. A]

Yes, the game engine seems to support offroad racing to some extent. Maybe it could be available for modders to use, if we decide to be modding friendly.

[MaddmattH]

Originally Posted by redi

Do we need to make a new sub-forum for it?

It would make for sense for the Ferrari Project to be merged into CARS, I think.

[johnbergqvist]

Originally Posted by Mr. A

Yes, the game engine seems to support offroad racing to some extent. Maybe it could be available for modders to use, if we decide to be modding friendly.

Maybe an off-road racing section could be an expansion pack?

[johnbergqvist]

Ian: When the official website is up, will you be able to provide the investors with concrete details of any licenses etc. for content that we will able to take advantage of/include in C.A.R.S.?

[Gassolini]

Originally Posted by IanBell

On the Ferrari game, expect some interesting news very soon.

What!?
It's the one game I wanted the most
Just hope that news isn't something like: "Ferrari Project finally officially cancelled"...
Speculations: "Someone very close to Ian Bell & Co actually have a Ferrari license", "Ferrari Project will use the C.A.R.S. platform".

OK - let's get on with making C.A.R.S. the best racing sim platform ever!

DJ
--

[Headsoup]

Originally Posted by IanBell

No. We will probably focus on asphalt racing for cars unless the investors decide otherwise.

Any possibiliy of Targa style racing being included, or strictly circuit racing with investors voting on anything further?

Also, do you plan for the initial content to be on modern, current tracks or historic/classic tracks?