AI-speed based around your laptimes?

todd92371 · 18 May 12, 21:28

Was wondering if the AI speed revolves around your laptimes and driving? Do they evolve and adjust the difficulty values according to your driving style and speed? Or, are they immune from this and just drive based on their own calculations?

The main reason that I'm asking.... I want to tailor a way to make the AI give competitive races each time. I was going in and adjusting the track race quality? values for each track individually. Was a pain. I am now starting to expirement with different difficulty settings ---pro---semi ect(turning aids off thereafter) and upping the AI boost if they are a bit slower. What are you guys doing to adjust your AI to give you a competitive race? The pro drivers are leaving me in the dust ...At least for now.

I"m just starting and want to just kinda get in the groove for a bit anyway.

I wish there was ( I know- I hate asking and should just make

) a utility to adjust the AI in a more simple fashion. Kinda like the one in Race 07/evo ect. I remember always being able to just tone that ONE value up or down. So simple. Maybe there is a mod out there to do so? Just haven't come across anything yet.
I really like those races when your ego isn't destroyed by staring at 100 cars dissapear into a sunset!

Or, the ones where you look back and think... there is no way I'm this good. it's that happy medium... I guess.

Thanks,
todd

Tkrau · 18 May 12, 21:55

Just in case you haven't found this already...VonDutch's AI mod thread discusses various aspects of modding the game AI and physics. The mod itself is for GTR2 but the values, etc are the same in GTL. I'm using it as a basis for modding my GTL install and have had good results overall so far.

jgf · 19 May 12, 01:15

After testing enough to know my own consistent laptimes; I start by setting the QualRatio and RaceRatio to 1.0, then tweak MidAdjust to get the AI running similar laps to mine in practice. Once satisfied with that, I use the ratio parameters to position myself on the grid and in the race. This way the AI times are consistent, no more am I at the back of the field in practice and qualifying, only to blast into the lead in the first laps of a race ...or vice versa. Once these are "balanced" it only requires minor tweaks to MidAdjust to control practice, qual, and race times. The downside is different mods often require different AI settings (I've taken to keeping notes of the three parameters for the mods I use most often), and you frequently must edit individual driver files to get them in line.

...and all this goes out the window in many races; I'm convinced the sim is programmed to give an extra 100hp randomly to one AI in each race.

Tkrau · 19 May 12, 01:29

That's something I've been curious about...whether the game randomly decides that cars A, F, and L will be fast this time and cars B, S, and X will be slow.

Petrolmania · 19 May 12, 01:46

They ALWAYS leave me in the dust!! heehee.

Age Rohbein · 19 May 12, 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgf

setting the QualRatio and RaceRatio to 1.0, then tweak MidAdjust to get the AI running similar laps to mine in practice. Once satisfied with that, I use the ratio parameters to position myself on the

I'm convinced the sim is programmed to give an extra 100hp randomly to one AI in each race.

Definitely, (I do something similar with the setup of the AI but also consider how fast the cars went in real life - on real life tracks which they raced on of course) I noticed much the same.

The AI in Simbin's sims is basically borked, in that they often suffer from 'runaway syndrome' as in Need for Speed and other 'dumb' arcade games.

If you're not in the lead after the first corner, in both GTL and GTR2 the leader often runs away from the pack - and you - by gaining 1 to 3 seconds per lap (that extra 'magical 100 BHP' bit..), but if you are in the lead after the start, they often drop back at the same rate. Doesn't happen every race, but quite regularly and it botches the racing when it happens. rFactor's AI is much more consistent in this respect.

David Wright · 19 May 12, 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd92371

Was wondering if the AI speed revolves around your laptimes and driving? Do they evolve and adjust the difficulty values according to your driving style and speed? Or, are they immune from this and just drive based on their own calculations?

AI speed does not revolve around your laptimes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd92371

The main reason that I'm asking.... I want to tailor a way to make the AI give competitive races each time. ... I am now starting to expirement with different difficulty settings ---pro---semi ect(turning aids off thereafter) and upping the AI boost if they are a bit slower. What are you guys doing to adjust your AI to give you a competitive race? The pro drivers are leaving me in the dust ...At least for now.

I"m just starting and want to just kinda get in the groove for a bit anyway.

I did exactly what you are doing. Choose the right difficulty level to get the AI speed right and then turn off aids. The AI boost is an option for fine tuning but I don't use it much.

The difficulty level changes the AI performance level % (as found in GTR2 or the RACE series)

Beginner 80%
Novice 85%
Amateur 90%
Semi-pro 95%
Pro 100%

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious but your choice of car is another important factor. Unlike titles like RACE, the performance of the cars in GTL varies a lot. And the track choice is also a factor - some cars are better at some tracks than others. The Elan for example is a very competitive GTC65 car but take it to Monza and you are going to struggle. Also non-original tracks are pot luck in terms of AI performance. There are no AI stup files and the quality of AI programming for the track will vary.

Don't worry if the the pro AI are leaving you in the dust. Although there are aliens for whom the pro AI are not fast enough, for us mortals this is normal.

todd92371 · 20 May 12, 00:53

Man...That makes me feel better. Phewwwww. I was saying to myself--- how does anyone consistently hang with these pro ai drivers. lol. I mean it was cracking me up. At least now, I can humbly relegate myself to the granny level. Yes, I personally asked Simbin behind the scenes to create this difficulty level just for me. It equates to 25%.

I will get there.

David Wright · 20 May 12, 08:42

There is no substitute for practice

I can remember the demo coming out in the summer of 2005. To begin with I had no chance of beating the AI but by the time the game came out in October I could beat them. The career mode in the full game was also a good incentive to push harder and harder - highly recommended.

You probably already know but there are two "features" of qualifying in GTL.

First, the AI times in qualifying are quicker than they race, so you don't need to be on pole to win a race.

Second, there is a qualifying bug in GTL (and GTR and GTR2). You must wait till the end of qualifying and wait till all cars are back in their garages before moving on to the race. If you don't the AI get very fast times and you end up at the back of the grid. You can use the accelerate buttion to speed up qualifying when you've set a time you're happy with.

jgf · 20 May 12, 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age Rohbein

... but if you are in the lead after the start, they often drop back at the same rate. Doesn't happen every race, but quite regularly and it botches the racing when it happens. ...

Reminiscent of the old SCGT, where you would spend ten laps trying to get around one slightly faster AI, only to have him completely give up once you passed him and never even challenge you again. Take the lead and, barring mistakes, a win was guaranteed.

jgf · 20 May 12, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Wright

....
Beginner 80%
Novice 85%
Amateur 90%
Semi-pro 95%
Pro 100%
...

And in the AIW, MidAdjust is for Semi-pro (and amateur?), BestAdjust for Pro, WorstAdjust for Novice (and Beginner?). I've only tweaked BestAdjust and MidAdjust for Pro and Semi-Pro races; the rest is based on memory of a thread read long ago.

Pizzaman · 20 May 12, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgf

Reminiscent of the old SCGT, where you would spend ten laps trying to get around one slightly faster AI, only to have him completely give up once you passed him and never even challenge you again. Take the lead and, barring mistakes, a win was guaranteed.

This is because the one AI in front has more room.
Where they struggle most is when they have to compete with other AI.

One reason not to have too many cars on a track.
If you have waayyyyy to many half the field pits for repairs in lap 2.

Yes they're stupid. No matter how fast you make them, they're stil stupid!

Age Rohbein · 22 May 12, 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pizzaman

This is because the one AI in front has more room.
Where they struggle most is when they have to compete with other AI.
(...)
Yes they're stupid. No matter how fast you make them, they're stil stupid!

Agree with the two latter statements

, disagree with the former

. Yes, they will have trouble going as fast as possible when they're interfering with each other.

But in GTL I've also had races where the pack just kept chasing me. And I've had many races where the leader just went 3 secs a lap faster than all the rest, while going 3 secs slower if he's behind. Even if he's the only one that got loose from the pack. The pack is then even further behind.

That's not a coincidence, that's a bug.

Best proof for that is the AI in rF, which is faaaar more consistent in this respect.
In general, they keep at it until the finish line if you're in the lead, and don't run off like crazy in the first few laps if you're not.

I suspect that Simbin has tried to put in some deliberate "randomize" factor, so that in one race the AI will go faster (or slower) than in another. But they sure didn't bother to properly test and debug it. It's both in GTL and GTR2 - but not in rF.
(If it's not in the .exe itself, then it would sure be nice if we could get rid of this one bug imho.)

Tkrau · 22 May 12, 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pizzaman

One reason not to have too many cars on a track.
If you have waayyyyy to many half the field pits for repairs in lap 2.

A few days ago, I did a 30 lap AI-test race w/36 assorted Minis on DerDumeklemmer's excellent Monaco 1988 track; I started 8th or 9th, moved up to 4th by the second lap, and hit the lead about halfway thru the race (I may have overdone the AI tweaking here). From then on, it was a matter of my trying to catch the back end of the field, but I could not find it. I did see a couple of cars crash out, but the track seemed strangely empty in general. It wasn't until the race ended and after I'd looked at the replay that I learned that every car (EVERY LAST CAR) behind me on the grid had piled up going into turn 1 on the first lap - 2/3 of the field gone before it even hit turn 2. No wonder the race was so easy...

And that wreck made me wonder...does the game always clean up a crash before the rest of the field gets back to the crash site? In retrospect, I'd have expected to have to pick my way thru that mass of twisted pixels at least once before it was cleared away, but I sailed right thru a totally clear turn 1 and had no idea it had even happened until afterward.

David Wright · 22 May 12, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age Rohbein

Agree with the two latter statements

, disagree with the former

. Yes, they will have trouble going as fast as possible when they're interfering with each other.

But in GTL I've also had races where the pack just kept chasing me. And I've had many races where the leader just went 3 secs a lap faster than all the rest, while going 3 secs slower if he's behind. Even if he's the only one that got loose from the pack. The pack is then even further behind.

That's not a coincidence, that's a bug.

Best proof for that is the AI in rF, which is faaaar more consistent in this respect.
In general, they keep at it until the finish line if you're in the lead, and don't run off like crazy in the first few laps if you're not.

I suspect that Simbin has tried to put in some deliberate "randomize" factor, so that in one race the AI will go faster (or slower) than in another. But they sure didn't bother to properly test and debug it. It's both in GTL and GTR2 - but not in rF.
(If it's not in the .exe itself, then it would sure be nice if we could get rid of this one bug imho.)

I don't want to make this yet another rF vs simbin bashing thead but one thing you can be certain of - you will get a wide variety of experiences of AI in all titles. rF and the GTL demo came out at about the same time and my experience was the AI in GTL was far superior to rF. I have completed all the races in the career mode - thats a lot of races - and never experienced the AI running away from me if I'm not in the lead.

The other thing to bear in mind is the drivers in the FIA Historic Championship are basically amateurs and their laptimes do vary - a lot.

http://archive.fia-historic-racing.c...20by%20Lap.pdf

Pizzaman · 23 May 12, 19:16

The crashing out would be caused by something in the AIW file.
But I have seen rF AIW and GTL AIW, there is no difference.
Any difference should be in the hard-coded stuff, not the AIW.

That said some tracks are made for online (people, with a brain) races.
Track limits may be taken a bit wider in order to prevent cut/track warnings.
It does mean the AI can go pretty stupid lines there.
I have the track, and seen AI hit walls pretty often. They are stupid...

Basically what we are missing is a variable HOW MUCH the car may deviate from the ideal line.
But all we have is a racing line, and limits how far AI may go.
They could, in theory, act like drunks withing that limit.

There is also a 'talent' file - basically determining how much a certain driver 'messes up'.
It also determines if he is good at overtaking, braking, following and everything.
I played around with it in the R8 Gordini mod, and yes you can make them go nuts.
Like make them very agressive but prone to all kinds of fail. Or late-brakers.
Or the kind of behaviour you mentioned.

Age Rohbein · 24 May 12, 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Wright

I don't want to make this yet another rF vs simbin bashing thead (...) I have completed all the races in the career mode - thats a lot of races - and never experienced the AI running away from me if I'm not in the lead.

I didn't want to make it into a flaming thingy either David. Just reporting what I've experienced (similar to jgf, it seems). We must've been driving a different version from GTL though (I mainly drive short races, btw).
On average, if I race against the AI nearly half the races have shown to be affected by 'runaway syndrome' (or, conversely, 'dropaway syndrome'). GPL didn't have this back then, and it was especially noticeable because it rarely happens in rF.

That said, AI in ISI/GMotor-based sims is far from the worst I've seen, though. Only have to remember NFSU or GT4... ugh.

18 May 12, 21:28	#1
todd92371 Join Date: Jan 2011	AI-speed based around your laptimes? Was wondering if the AI speed revolves around your laptimes and driving? Do they evolve and adjust the difficulty values according to your driving style and speed? Or, are they immune from this and just drive based on their own calculations? The main reason that I'm asking.... I want to tailor a way to make the AI give competitive races each time. I was going in and adjusting the track race quality? values for each track individually. Was a pain. I am now starting to expirement with different difficulty settings ---pro---semi ect(turning aids off thereafter) and upping the AI boost if they are a bit slower. What are you guys doing to adjust your AI to give you a competitive race? The pro drivers are leaving me in the dust ...At least for now. I"m just starting and want to just kinda get in the groove for a bit anyway. I wish there was ( I know- I hate asking and should just make ) a utility to adjust the AI in a more simple fashion. Kinda like the one in Race 07/evo ect. I remember always being able to just tone that ONE value up or down. So simple. Maybe there is a mod out there to do so? Just haven't come across anything yet. I really like those races when your ego isn't destroyed by staring at 100 cars dissapear into a sunset! Or, the ones where you look back and think... there is no way I'm this good. it's that happy medium... I guess. Thanks, todd Last edited by todd92371; 18 May 12 at 21:39.

18 May 12, 21:55	#2
Tkrau Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Central California	Just in case you haven't found this already...VonDutch's AI mod thread discusses various aspects of modding the game AI and physics. The mod itself is for GTR2 but the values, etc are the same in GTL. I'm using it as a basis for modding my GTL install and have had good results overall so far.

19 May 12, 01:15	#3
jgf Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Age: 59	After testing enough to know my own consistent laptimes; I start by setting the QualRatio and RaceRatio to 1.0, then tweak MidAdjust to get the AI running similar laps to mine in practice. Once satisfied with that, I use the ratio parameters to position myself on the grid and in the race. This way the AI times are consistent, no more am I at the back of the field in practice and qualifying, only to blast into the lead in the first laps of a race ...or vice versa. Once these are "balanced" it only requires minor tweaks to MidAdjust to control practice, qual, and race times. The downside is different mods often require different AI settings (I've taken to keeping notes of the three parameters for the mods I use most often), and you frequently must edit individual driver files to get them in line. ...and all this goes out the window in many races; I'm convinced the sim is programmed to give an extra 100hp randomly to one AI in each race.

19 May 12, 01:29	#4
Tkrau Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Central California	That's something I've been curious about...whether the game randomly decides that cars A, F, and L will be fast this time and cars B, S, and X will be slow.

19 May 12, 01:46	#5
Petrolmania Easily Distracted Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Anarkist Garage, Cyberspace. Age: 50	They ALWAYS leave me in the dust!! heehee.

20 May 12, 00:53	#8
todd92371 Join Date: Jan 2011	Man...That makes me feel better. Phewwwww. I was saying to myself--- how does anyone consistently hang with these pro ai drivers. lol. I mean it was cracking me up. At least now, I can humbly relegate myself to the granny level. Yes, I personally asked Simbin behind the scenes to create this difficulty level just for me. It equates to 25%. I will get there.

20 May 12, 08:42	#9
David Wright Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: UK	There is no substitute for practice I can remember the demo coming out in the summer of 2005. To begin with I had no chance of beating the AI but by the time the game came out in October I could beat them. The career mode in the full game was also a good incentive to push harder and harder - highly recommended. You probably already know but there are two "features" of qualifying in GTL. First, the AI times in qualifying are quicker than they race, so you don't need to be on pole to win a race. Second, there is a qualifying bug in GTL (and GTR and GTR2). You must wait till the end of qualifying and wait till all cars are back in their garages before moving on to the race. If you don't the AI get very fast times and you end up at the back of the grid. You can use the accelerate buttion to speed up qualifying when you've set a time you're happy with.

23 May 12, 19:16	#16
Pizzaman Minifreak & Muscleman Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Groningen Centre of the Universe	The crashing out would be caused by something in the AIW file. But I have seen rF AIW and GTL AIW, there is no difference. Any difference should be in the hard-coded stuff, not the AIW. That said some tracks are made for online (people, with a brain) races. Track limits may be taken a bit wider in order to prevent cut/track warnings. It does mean the AI can go pretty stupid lines there. I have the track, and seen AI hit walls pretty often. They are stupid... Basically what we are missing is a variable HOW MUCH the car may deviate from the ideal line. But all we have is a racing line, and limits how far AI may go. They could, in theory, act like drunks withing that limit. There is also a 'talent' file - basically determining how much a certain driver 'messes up'. It also determines if he is good at overtaking, braking, following and everything. I played around with it in the R8 Gordini mod, and yes you can make them go nuts. Like make them very agressive but prone to all kinds of fail. Or late-brakers. Or the kind of behaviour you mentioned.