Setup Effectivity

[jackolson]

Hi,

I have Race07/GTR Evolution...one of my friends has Race07 only. He said, the setup parameters (car setups) in Race07 is better than that of the expansion GTR Evo. He said the car responds more realistically with setup parameters in Race07. I haven't had the time to tinker with Race07 yet, so I wanna know from you guys.

couple of questions also

1. How can I revert from GTR Evo to just Race07 only?
2. In terms of Simulation ONLY, which game is more "realistic" down to the very little differences in the tire thread temperatures...which responds better to modding, in-game and in the game folder files?

The reason I like GTR Evo is that you can really get down and tinker with small parameters, just like in real life, building an engine, modding suspension and so forth. But I got a little worried, does the game setup really make a difference in the performance of the cars?

I have RBR, and that is a really good simulation game, the best in fact. I have the original, and I never went to install the new ones that only hyper up the graphics...I don't need better graphics, I want more realistic simulations, like if a rock hits the windshield, I want it to crack and hit my helmet, then I'd be dazed and go out of control. Which also led me to wonder, tire wear, clutch wear, brake fade, damage sensitivity, so forth...I want more real of them in a game.

Don't get me wrong. I have a local group here and we do track days as long as budget permits, so I know how it is for real.

Thanks and more power.

-Jack

[halfreak]

As far as I know, GTR Evo, Race On, STCC and other expansion packs only add cars and tracks to Race 07 and don't alter the specs of existing ones, or modify the way cars react when you change settings in garage.

BTW, I think you really should try RSRBR from rallyesim.com if you haven't already. It's not about graphics, it has tons of new cars and tracks, and the makers of this mod are really serious about quality.

[Chronus]

Originally Posted by jackolson

Hi,

I have Race07/GTR Evolution...one of my friends has Race07 only. He said, the setup parameters (car setups) in Race07 is better than that of the expansion GTR Evo. He said the car responds more realistically with setup parameters in Race07. I haven't had the time to tinker with Race07 yet, so I wanna know from you guys.

The efficacy of garage changes to setups is the same in both - GTR Evo is an expansion pack to Race07, as you know. You can pinpoint the differences between both titles down to physics files (hdc, tyr, sp and eng files).

Setups for Race07 focus on the cars Race07 had upon release, whereas those in GTR Evo target GT Pro, GT Sport, GT Club and Production classes (and WTCC extreme).

Different cars, different setups. As should be.

1. How can I revert from GTR Evo to just Race07 only?

If you install GTR Evolution, you will have Race07 if you bought it as standalone. Otherwise, it'll be an addon pack.

2. In terms of Simulation ONLY, which game is more "realistic" down to the very little differences in the tire thread temperatures...which responds better to modding, in-game and in the game folder files?

Professional drivers not linked to SIMBIN in any way say the WTCC cars (Race07) are very close to real life - perhaps some more grip is needed, and that is all.

I won't comment on GT cars as I develop extensive modifications to the physics calibration as defined by SIMBIN, except to say that tire model wise the differences are obvious and reflect the differences between GT and touring cars.

But I got a little worried, does the game setup really make a difference in the performance of the cars?

Obviously. I am not referring to cars made by a modder or modding group, but to those released by SIMBIN.

Race07/GTR EVO/Race ON, in spite of the more evolved tire model, was built upon the same platform as rFactor, GTL and GTR2, which is isiMotor2. Any isiMotor2 based simulation allows for customization of cars in the garage and these changes are as usual effective.

I have RBR, and that is a really good simulation game, the best in fact.

The physics engine (pMotor2) of GTR Evo is more advanced than RBR, though the tire model in RBR is known to be one of the best representations of tire behaviour on dirt surfaces.

Comparisons between RBR and isiMotor2 are not necessary nor logical, as different things are simulated by these platforms.

I have the original, and I never went to install the new ones that only hyper up the graphics...I don't need better graphics, I want more realistic simulations, like if a rock hits the windshield, I want it to crack and hit my helmet, then I'd be dazed and go out of control. Which also led me to wonder, tire wear, clutch wear, brake fade, damage sensitivity, so forth...I want more real of them in a game.

Years ago, many complained that the best flight sims were not "realistic enough" because of such details: "hey, where is the gore - blood and guts - when the pilot gets hit"?

Same thing here.

Whatever happens to a car (body, chassis, tires, wings) during a race is, imo, what defines realism.

Wind-shields disintegrating or debris flying off in all directions are interesting details that are not the race itself, but mere consequences of something gone wrong (the same can be said about blown tires wrecking body work, etc). Interesting details, but not vital to define car behaviour, not vital to define handling realism.

So, "interesting details" should be regarded separately from tire physics, aerodynamics or chassis physics (or even collision physics), not mixed with these.

NKP, iRacing, GTR EVO, XMR, Racer - all of them provide reasonably high levels of realism without those other details.

My 2 cents, though.

Don't get me wrong. I have a local group here and we do track days as long as budget permits, so I know how it is for real.

Well, several modders and devs are (or have been) either into regular track-days or even better actually racing. Some also work with professional drivers.

So, you're in good company if you're interested in these simulations.

[jackolson]

Originally Posted by halfreak

As far as I know, GTR Evo, Race On, STCC and other expansion packs only add cars and tracks to Race 07 and don't alter the specs of existing ones, or modify the way cars react when you change settings in garage.

BTW, I think you really should try RSRBR from rallyesim.com if you haven't already. It's not about graphics, it has tons of new cars and tracks, and the makers of this mod are really serious about quality.

Hey thanks. I've been hearing a lot about the new RBR, thanks for the assurance, I was a little skeptic, or I admit I have always been skeptic when "aesthetics" takes more of the foreground. But I'll give it a go once I get my hands on it, thanks for the reply.

[jackolson]

Originally Posted by Chronus

The efficacy...

...you're in good company if you're interested in these simulations.

I couldn't think of any better way to thank you for your answers. You have a foresight as it seems because I ended up ticking all the questions I have listed for this thread. I actually read your reply three times making sure that I don't miss out on anything. Appreciate it a lot.

I have been tinkering a bit with the tyr, eng, hdc, sp, grb files. One at a time I am trying to see what those numbers do to the car in-game. I seldom do the changes in the in-game garage because I find it very limiting "for personal" use. I guess part of me is envy on how modders came up with such huge know-how into developing this great game. I want to learn how they did it and how can I do it for my own offline satisfaction.

But then again, I have a backup of ALL the original game setup files in another drive and a redundant copy in another. I guess I have to restore them and approach my learning cravings in another way.

I have one question though. I've read some of the good setup threads from some of the old files. One in particular about setting the camber and tire air pressure to create a cascading temperature pattern on the tire's contact patch ensuring maximum possible grip in corners. But it does not seem to matter which way I set it up. The tire temperature all across the thread just hits 90 and that's it. Even by simply driving it out of the pits in a practice run, tire temperature maxed already. They said it would probably take 2-3 laps, and I don't "feel" any difference, maybe because I am comparing to real life track driving where 2psi of tire air pressure difference can be very evident in a couple of laps. That's what I'm looking for. I tried altering the files to give my BMW M3 E30 a front negative camber of 15degrees, insane I know, but it did not hurt my lap times that much, I mean, yes it's twitchy, but I think a 15degree negative camber in real life will make me endanger all the trees in my neighborhood. Maxing out the torque curve in the eng file proves to be dangerously accurately realistic as when beefing up an engine in real life without supporting mods in other aspects. So on and so forth. My beef if with the suspension settings. I don't really "feel" it. Or I am not just good enough to know it. But I mean, I can skew up toe settings in the weirdest manner ever, and still the car drives like I did nothing to it...

I don't know really. I am not really looking for the "special effects" realism, I mean, I can drive and play even with a very bad car skin and very least of graphic details. It was just my exaggeration pointing out my search for realism of modifying the HANDLING of the cars. One example before I forget, brake torque. I tried altering them in the files, but still in-game, I really don't feel what I would expect when in real life some mechanic would deliberately remove the brake disc in one corner of the car. LOL

But anyway, I know these are just some of my personal rumblings. I will always love Race07/GTR Evolution, and of course the original Richard Burns Rally. I am a grown man with 2 kids, but I still play this game like a 10 year old would, though a little bit naughtier in a way.

Thanks for the replies guys, really appreciate having a community like this.

regards,
Jack

[Chronus]

Originally Posted by jackolson

I have been tinkering a bit with the tyr, eng, hdc, sp, grb files. One at a time I am trying to see what those numbers do to the car in-game. I seldom do the changes in the in-game garage because I find it very limiting "for personal" use. I guess part of me is envy on how modders came up with such huge know-how into developing this great game. I want to learn how they did it and how can I do it for my own offline satisfaction.

Modding these physics files goes back to the days of F1C. In those days, several guys help build up an impressive knowledge base on how to mod physics on the ISI game engine. GTR, rFactor, GTL, GTR2 and later Race and Race07 benefited from the work and dedication of a few great guys.

But if you want to learn...Someone said that process (learning isiMotor2 modding) is like climbing a mountain, though I feel it is more like looking at an iceberg - there is a lot more under the surface than what meets the eye.

So...reading old posts from RSC, or ISI, or right here, by people such as Bristow, LBodnar, Niels, Aris is a good way to start.

But then you have to look at the BIG picture. Refresh your calculus, physics, and brainwash yourself with everything pertaining to tire physics, tire modelling, car engineering (chassis, engine, suspensions) and aerodynamics.

Then, use whatever tools you can find, but tools you can trust (ex.: Roger's car physics calculator, carFactory, VHPA (usable for more sims than just LFS alone), etc).

Obviously, the more you learn, the more you understand what not to do and where the compromises in the game physics are (fortunately, isiMotor2 is so good you can do a pretty good job with it).

The more you do, the more you experiment, the more you read...the more certain you become you still have a lot to learn...

I have one question though. I've read some of the good setup threads from some of the old files. One in particular about setting the camber and tire air pressure to create a cascading temperature pattern on the tire's contact patch ensuring maximum possible grip in corners. But it does not seem to matter which way I set it up. The tire temperature all across the thread just hits 90 and that's it. Even by simply driving it out of the pits in a practice run, tire temperature maxed already. They said it would probably take 2-3 laps, and I don't "feel" any difference, maybe because I am comparing to real life track driving where 2psi of tire air pressure difference can be very evident in a couple of laps.

I don't know which files exactly you have been tinkering with, but you have to look into the tyr files and understand how exactly to achieve the effect you want.

Depending on the magnitude of changes, you will see that tires sport temperature differences between left and right, front and rear, and there will be differences between the outer, mid and inner part of the tire treads.

Maxing out the torque curve in the eng file proves to be dangerously accurately realistic as when beefing up an engine in real life without supporting mods in other aspects. So on and so forth. My beef if with the suspension settings. I don't really "feel" it. Or I am not just good enough to know it. But I mean, I can skew up toe settings in the weirdest manner ever, and still the car drives like I did nothing to it...

As above with tire files, you have to edit the proper files, which in the case of suspensions are the sp and hdc (there are a few entries for right/left, front and rear).

If you design the suspension to what you think is more appropriate, you'll see it responds as you expect. Maybe not perfect, but a (very) close fit.

One example before I forget, brake torque. I tried altering them in the files, but still in-game, I really don't feel what I would expect when in real life some mechanic would deliberately remove the brake disc in one corner of the car.

Truth is, from isiMotor2 to isiMotor2.5, XMR and iRacing, no simulation is perfect. I think, however, the devs have done quite a good job - even Dave Kaemmer did a fantastic job with GPL, and that was more than 11 years ago. From his revolutionary GPL to isiMotor2 the physics modelling evolved substantially - actually, a LOT.

When something doesn't quite feel as I would expect, I look into it, contrast it with RL data or info I have and change accordingly. It works, with more or less work, with or without headaches.

But anyway, I know these are just some of my personal rumblings. I will always love Race07/GTR Evolution, and of course the original Richard Burns Rally. I am a grown man with 2 kids, but I still play this game like a 10 year old would, though a little bit naughtier in a way.

lol

This hobby can get a little too crazy at times - for some, it became also a professional career, so...

And kids and better halfs are none too happy at times with the time we spend in this.

[jackolson]

@Chronus

You're right. The more I learn, the more I realize what I should and should not do. The games are not really perfect, but they were made to simulate what is close to reality.

To be specific, the GTR Evo garage setup is very limiting for me. That is why I go to the hdc and eng files to "broaden" the parameters, say increase the options for available tire air pressure settings. I use the tyr files just to adjust the roll resistance of the given models, in my view, is like changing the thread patterns of the tires. I maybe totally wrong in doing these things but it helps me realize the limits. One exaggerated example is in the files, I allowed the tire pressure settings to be able to give me the lowest possible psi I know which in real life is like running flat already. That's 10psi. In the game I simulate a flat left front tire, gave it 10psi only, all the others are stock GTR Evo setup. But I did not "feel" any change at all. After 2-3 laps I went back to garage and the tire temperatures all read 90degrees in all inner, middle, outer portions of the tire. That's my dilemma. Why is that so? Is it a bug on my part? The physics can't recognize "weird" parameters?

I, just now, have installed GT legends. Guess what, after one lap driving the Cortina, I see "real" changes in the tire temperatures and I can somehow "feel" the loss of grip when I alter the setup. It's actually very good. SIMBIN is very good indeed, no doubt.

I am trying to revert my GTR Evo back to RACE07 only, but I think I cannot because my RACE07 is not the standalone pack when I got it. It has GTR Evo automatically installing itself when I installed the game pack. Now I am searching for RACE07 standalone pack. I want to see if the setup environment in RACE07 is like GT Legends. But I don't want to lose GTR Evo. I wish I can make all ends meet somehow.

By the way, lots of appreciation for your time in helping me out. I don't mind reading a lot if I learn a lot from what I read. Thanks and more power to you.

Ah, time, yes...the never ending quest for time. It's 4am as I write this, and the bedroom lights keeps turning on and off, it's like Pit lights telling me to Pit in and turn off the engine. LOL

[WildBill]

I don't want to hijack this thread but maybe it will be informative in some way Jackolson

Chronus----if you read this

I'm modelling the physics for a 50's mod---both in rFactor and GTR2

The one thing Iwould like to finalize would be differentiating between a car with early discs and another with drum brakes----ok---let's say Jag D type and Maserati 300s---now the drum brakes at that period were at their zenith pretty much while discs were basicly in their infancy.

This isn't about the braking power so much as the fade rate---in regards to the drums---would you increase Failure rate--increase the heating rate---decrease the Brake cooling rate.

What do you think would be appropriate? There must be reasons why discs --even early discs showed an advantage. I imagine they cooled faster due to less mass and better air exposure etc.

Sorry for the imposition.

DRAGON

[jackolson]

@WildBill,

Your thoughts are most welcome. I have the same thoughts though I am pretty much satisfied with the Braking behavior of the cars. But I play around with the "brake torque" values at some point. But I realize with what you said, altering one thing should be done in harmony with other parameters, I mean, increasing the braking force means more heat and more fade in long races.

Your inputs are very welcome here. Thanks and more power. Keep it coming please.

At some point I thought nobody is out there sharing my thoughts, that's why I was reluctant to post threads before.

[WildBill]

Thanks Jackolson------I guess what I'm trying to do here is simulate a pretty major changeover from drums to disc which was very revolutionary at the time----therefore I'd like others to feel the difference when driving the cars. I started driving on drums so I'm familiar with fade ---lock-up and LOOK MA___NO BRAKES---lol

DRAGON

[jackolson]

LOL WildBill, I also started driving on drums and poor old DOT3 fluids. Memories of ditches and other people's rear bumpers shrinking on the force of my old jeep's stainless steel bull bars. Keep it up, would like see that mod of yours soon.

[Chronus]

Originally Posted by jackolson

To be specific, the GTR Evo garage setup is very limiting for me. That is why I go to the hdc and eng files to "broaden" the parameters, say increase the options for available tire air pressure settings.

In my opinion, this (garage not being enough) depends on one's perspective and objectives.

Putting aside the professional side of things and just focusing on the simracer side of it, if one looks for changes similar to those team mechanics and engineers effect on cars during a race (all setup related changes), then the garage from any isiMOTOR2 sim is adequate.

If you want to change suspension and tire behaviour, garage settings will not help you.

It doesn't help me when I'm in the process of defining the whole behaviour of a car. Afterwards, during a race or qualy, garage settings have their value.

I use the tyr files just to adjust the roll resistance of the given models, in my view, is like changing the thread patterns of the tires. I maybe totally wrong in doing these things but it helps me realize the limits.

It doesn't look as if you're doing anything wrong. Quite the opposite. But, as I hint above, setups will not alter tire models (which is, objectively, the sum of both the mathematical-physical model imprinted into equations and algorithms - offlimits to us - and the calibration of that model (or models).

Sometimes - not saying this is the case - people confuse setups with the whole physics of a car or a racing sim, which is obviously wrong.

One exaggerated example is in the files, I allowed the tire pressure settings to be able to give me the lowest possible psi I know which in real life is like running flat already. That's 10psi. In the game I simulate a flat left front tire, gave it 10psi only, all the others are stock GTR Evo setup. But I did not "feel" any change at all[...]

Hmm...I have never experienced that. It sure looks odd.

I have seen however someone complaining of something similar (so to speak) and it was due to a...sneaky issue: this person had GTR EVO from Steam and no matter what he did, he could effect any change to the car physics. This is due to the fact that the steam version of the game engine seeks a certain folder structure and if something here fails, it reverts to original, unchanged physics files.

I am trying to revert my GTR Evo back to RACE07 only, but I think I cannot because my RACE07 is not the standalone pack when I got it.[...].

GTR EVO may be installed as a stand-alone or an expansion pack. If it is a stand-alone, it will install Race07.

The contents of Race07 and GTR Evo differ just as I explained earlier.

You shouldn't need to revert back to Race07, as the Race07 contents, if you didn't touch them, are still there in its original state.

By the way, lots of appreciation for your time in helping me out. I don't mind reading a lot if I learn a lot from what I read. Thanks and more power to you.

lol

isiMotor2 based racing sims really are like your run of the mill iceberg: you only see the tip but you know there's a lot beneath the surface. So, lots of things to write about when we're trying to help someone.

Originally Posted by WildBill

Chronus----if you read this

I'm modelling the physics for a 50's mod---both in rFactor and GTR2

The one thing Iwould like to finalize would be differentiating between a car with early discs and another with drum brakes----ok---let's say Jag D type and Maserati 300s---now the drum brakes at that period were[...]

Hmm...good question. Not a simple one, I suspect. And you probably know more about this than I do.

First off, there are differences between isiMotor2 v1.250 and GTR2's version. The Brake Response Curve allows for a less limiting simulation of brake behaviour in regards to changes in temperature, as you know.

Secondly, lets say from the 50s onwards...Brake fade was a problem with both drum and early discs. Only with "space age" materials did we begin to see this problem recede or be almost eliminated.

Picking a known example, the deTomaso Pantera.

Early models featured brake discs already (at least, judging from several sources I read). But they were seriously prone to failure and had a quick fade. Later models replaced the early solid discs by ventilated discs, and brake behaviour improved significantly.

How to simulate the above? Disregarding the very useful brake response curve featured in isiMotor2 v.1250 (not found in GTR2), I'd say:
- optimum for early discs of the Pantera could be around 470, while later (ventilated) discs could reach 550 or slightly more.
- Cooling should be higher for ventilated discs as well by comparison to solid units.
- Wear rate of early units was also higher, as was also their failure rate.

In general, and correct me if this is not so...

Drum brakes

- Lower optimum temperatures and lower cooling capacity.
- Brake Fade Range could be used to either extend the effects of excessive heat or replicate what happens when brakes are too cold.
- Brake heating (heat added linearly with torque) should also be higher, which combined with lower cooling abilities contributed to overheat and brake fade.

In regards to Brake Fade Range specifically, it depends on what's more significant: brake grip halving due to brakes being too cold or too hot. Maybe setting this to a couple hundred degrees higher than optimum could replicate the behaviour intended by v1.250's BrakeResponseCurve //<cold>,<min_optimum>,<max_optimum>,<hot>

[WildBill]

Thanks Chronus----some good ideas there.

DRAGON

[jackolson]

Very nice inputs I must say, thanks a lot for the great support.

Update:

Well, I now have 3 sims.
GTR Evo - expansion which installed Race 07 as well
GT Legends - that I still have to race hard to unlock things
Race 07 - got this from a friend, a standalone pack

I am now comparing the gameplays on all of them, specially Race 07 versus GTR Evo. I am really hooked on that garage setup dilemma. In GTR Evo, after a lap, all the tire temps and air pressure reads to the max. In Race 07, the tire temps and air pressure differs in each and every lap. I always go back to garage and I have a more "real" data on the screen. And the tire temps, inner, middle, outer are really changing as I change setup like camber and inflation. That's what I was looking for in GTR Evo.

I am not going to change any files in the standalone Race 07. I installed it as reference. I really want to sort my GTR Evo out so it works like Race 07. I am now currently reinstalling GTR Evo to restore the its Race 07 to original specs. Then I will compare that again to the standalone Race 07 that I just got.

For the mean time, I am running Richard Burns Rally Original version, just to whip Simbin away from my mind for awhile. LOL.

BTW, I play these games on an old laptop, keyboards only, no outboard controllers here. It's more fun, haven't broken any keys yet. LOL.

Thanks again guys. I really wish I can sort out my GTR Evo garage. I really love that game.