BTCC 2012 news and rumours

[Alex1911]

Originally Posted by Andy81

So far we know WSR and Team Hard are looking into NGTC for next year, they could be contenders for the Seat.
I wouldn't put Special Tuning in that bracket though, I think they'll probably stick to just WTCC.
The Seat rumour seems to be going on though, it's nice to know that yet another make is being thought of, even if it's just someone mulling the idea over it could well be an extreamly varied grid in 2013.

BTW Andy, you remember that Special Tuning has kind of a BAD reputation with clients, nobody who worked with them in a season returned for another one, Dave Newsham being the latest inline

you remember the famos exaust story last year

[KindaUnstuck]

Whilst we are on the subject t of STR, it appears they are assisting SEAT team Sweden in STCC this year, with the cars they have, which were the previous STR BTCC cars.

It would be good for a full NGTC car or 2 to appear in STCC, hopefully if that happens it will start bringing the build costs down.

Sorry for slow replies, using my tablet rather than PC so it takes about twice as long to write a reply

[Alex1911]

well it will be a busy winther , that's for sure

many S2000 cars need to go and be replaced with NGTC machines

WSR , ES Racing, team HARD, Lea Wood and AMD miltek need repalcements while Motorbase already working on replacements

[KindaUnstuck]

The good thing though is that all these cheap s2000 cars will make great cars for new teams to run, who can't afford to do full NGTC cars at the moment and smaller teams like Lea Wood I guess

[trotter2k]

need the Audi's back.

[Andy81]

Originally Posted by trotter2k

need the Audi's back.

There's been 1 or 2 Audis racing all season

[trotter2k]

Originally Posted by Andy81

There's been 1 or 2 Audis racing all season

thats how much ive missed BTCC on the TV

[ivaneurope]

Originally Posted by Alex1911

well it will be a busy winther , that's for sure

many S2000 cars need to go and be replaced with NGTC machines

WSR , ES Racing, team HARD, Lea Wood and AMD miltek need repalcements while Motorbase already working on replacements

They need money to build the cars, which apparently don't have.

[Trebor901]

will be a shame to see the Vectras retired thats for sure they've got a good history in BTCC and still race winners

[KindaUnstuck]

Seen in Autosport that TOCA are looking at possibly introducing an "S2000 Cup" for 2013 so that those teams who can't afford to go NGTC racing next year or new teams who enter the BTCC with S2000 machinery in 2013 are able to race for something with a bit of value rather than just be seen as making up the numbers in the championship. Not sure how it would work but I guess it's similar to how the Semcom Cup works in STCC.

Think it's a good idea personally it's perfect for teams like Binz and AMD, allows new teams to step up relatively cheaply and gives them something to aim for and still gives teams like WSR and Motorbase the chance to sell their S2000 machines on and get a bit of money for them.

[Andy81]

Originally Posted by ivaneurope

They need money to build the cars, which apparently don't have.

WSR have good sponsorship with Ebay and pay drivers. I'm sure they'll manage to get 2 cars for 2013.

Originally Posted by Trebor901

will be a shame to see the Vectras retired thats for sure they've got a good history in BTCC and still race winners

It will be a shame, but the cars will still be alloud to race next year so you may still see them. Just the boost on the NGTC cars is going up making them unable to compete at the front.
It's good to see Vauxhalls are still there with the Insignia though, it's a really great looking car. It's just a real shame it seems to have been badly run and organised.

[Trebor901]

i think the new Astra would make a better NGTC car than the Insignia tbh would look a lot meaner and race car like the Insignia imo is just too big of a car, but then its similar size to the MG

[Andy81]

Originally Posted by Trebor901

i think the new Astra would make a better NGTC car than the Insignia tbh would look a lot meaner and race car like the Insignia imo is just too big of a car, but then its similar size to the MG

I think part of the reasoning behind having the insignia was that it was a bigger car. I'm sure Thorne talked about the bigger car wouldn't need large wheel arches which would mean it would have better aero.
Would be interesting to see if anyone does actually do an NGTC car from a manufaturer we already have but a different model. An Accord/Astra/Modeo etc. Add a nice dynamic to the racing.

[KindaUnstuck]

Picture posted by CranerCurves over at 10tenths forum:

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...72216593_n.jpg

[Trebor901]

Originally Posted by KindaUnstuck

Picture posted by CranerCurves over at 10tenths forum:

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...72216593_n.jpg

i cant see why wsr wouldnt build an ngtc car but i hope its not the nasty looking new bmw f30 3 series

[Alex1911]

Originally Posted by Trebor901

i cant see why wsr wouldnt build an ngtc car but i hope its not the nasty looking new bmw f30 3 series

AFAIK BMW never really supported them even when they did very well in WTCC so I doubt they are THAT loyal to BMW

[Alex1911]

Lea Wood claimed on TTT that they are looking to buy a NGTC car for 2013

1) Honda Civic - Team Dynamics - Matt Neal
2) Honda Civic - Team Dynamics - Gordon Shedden

3) MG - 888 - Jason Plato
4) MG - 888 - TBA

5) Ford Focus - Motorbase - Mat Jackson
6) Ford Focus - Motorbase - TBA

7) Honda Civic - Pirtek - Andy Jordan
8) Honda Civic - Pirtek - ??

9) ??? - Team HARD - Tony Gilham

10) ??? - BINZ - Lea Wood

[ivaneurope]

Add and WSR - they said that they are also targeting NGTC from 2013.

[Trebor901]

But have you seen how much it costs to build an NGTC car?! £200,000-£220,000 im pretty sure ive seen that s2000 cars were much cheaper than that to build, seems NGTC isnt really that cost effective

[KindaUnstuck]

I'm no expert on the costs but the first 2 BMWs WSR got were roughly £250,000 each (I think that is what I read somewhere at the time) not sure about how much they paid for the 2008 car or how much the new shell they got this year cost. Remember also that WSR bought their original 3 cars in kit form and built them themselves at the time, so that would have worked out cheaper than buying pre-built cars.

The costs to build a new normally aspirated S2000 car these days appears to have dropped and the re-sale value seems to have plummeted but to build a new S2000 1.6T spec car or even upgrade an existing car to the new spec is more than the building and maintaining of an NGTC car for sure. (BMW offered WSR the WTCC 1.6T kits at a heavily subsidised price when they were looking to run Turkington and Coronel a few years back).

Maintenance wise, the NGTC car is a lot cheaper. It cost WSR more last year to use the S2000 BMW engine than it would of done had they of been able to get a turbo engine sorted, and compared to the 1.6T unit the costs of running the NGTC engine is also a lot less it seems, so although the cost of teh cars at the moment is higher than predicted, they are still cheaper than what the WTCC is up to.

When John Thorne was interviewd at Snetterton he said that the reason the NGTC costs were so high is down to there being relatively few cars available at the moment, the more teams that build NGTC cars and the more cars the teams can sell to the smaller teams and hopefully to the STCC then that should help bring the costs down for everyone, but that's probably going to take a while still.

[Andy81]

Originally Posted by Trebor901

But have you seen how much it costs to build an NGTC car?! £200,000-£220,000 im pretty sure ive seen that s2000 cars were much cheaper than that to build, seems NGTC isnt really that cost effective

Where did you hear S2000 is cheaper? Figures i've seen are around 250K for S2000. And that's a figure for a N/A car, the 1.6 turbos for WTCC cost more.
By all accounts the cars are quite similar in cost to build, but NGTC cars are much cheaper to run, and much more powerfull. They've also aloud people that havn't built cars before to so so sucessfully. (motorbase for example)
I'd say NGTC has been a success, just mabee not as big as it could have been.
But in the future it may be possible to bring the costs down of the NGTC spec parts as more and more teams take it up. The more people running it the better the production costs become.

[DoMw94]

NGTC wont last long. Remember BTC, that was fairly unsuccessful. Unless WTCC go to NGTC, I'd expect 1.6 turbo S2000 cars in the BTCC within 5 years. From a marketing perspective, WTCC is a lot more attractive

[ivaneurope]

Originally Posted by DoMw94

NGTC wont last long. Remember BTC, that was fairly unsuccessful. Unless WTCC go to NGTC, I'd expect 1.6 turbo S2000 cars in the BTCC within 5 years. From a marketing perspective, WTCC is a lot more attractive

And another fact - in STCC(the other championship eligible for NGTC) there is no NGTC cars on the field. The other championship using 1.6T S2000 engines is the Chineese.

[-=Prodrive=-]

I too see NGTC as another BTC reg type situation. The only good thing about NGTC are the engines which are a fair bit cheaper than the 1.6 FIA turbos, but do the exact same job.

The BTCC should have stuck with S2000 with the turbo engines. Going the whole NGTC full on car build type route was the wrong one in my view.

The fact is that the biggest obstacle for the S2000 cars was the cost of engines and the cost of rebuilds. Shoving a cheap turbo block in there (NGTC) was the best thing they could have done. I would have left it there, and see how the costs worked out after that.

[DoMw94]

Originally Posted by ivaneurope

And another fact - in STCC(the other championship eligible for NGTC) there is no NGTC cars on the field. The other championship using 1.6T S2000 engines is the Chineese.

You can use the 1.6 in STCC too.

[ivaneurope]

Originally Posted by DoMw94

You can use the 1.6 in STCC too.

But the 1.6T was allowed only for Chevrolet.

[Alex1911]

Originally Posted by -=Prodrive=-

I too see NGTC as another BTC reg type situation. The only good thing about NGTC are the engines which are a fair bit cheaper than the 1.6 FIA turbos, but do the exact same job..

if you see the BTC spec produced during its 5 years existence

- Vauxhall Astra Coupe
- Vauxhall Astra Sports Hatch
- Honda Civic Type R
- Honda Integra
- MG ZS
- Proton
- Alfa Romeo 147
- Peugeot 406 Coupe
- Peugeot 307
- Lexus IS 200


that's about 10 models in 5 years

NGTC in 2 years has produced
- Toyota Avensis
- Honda Civic
- MG
- Audi A4
- Vauxhall Insignia
- Proton (Welch)
- Ford Focus

that's 7 models in 2 years , I think NGTC already has outclassed BTC in terms of diversity

[Street Racer 77]

You forgot the Lexus

[Alex1911]

Originally Posted by Street Racer 77

You forgot the Lexus

yes I was confused

ther green Lexus of 2005 were S2000 spec but there were some others in 2001


the 2001 BTC spec

[Andy81]

Originally Posted by ivaneurope

And another fact - in STCC(the other championship eligible for NGTC) there is no NGTC cars on the field. The other championship using 1.6T S2000 engines is the Chineese.

STCC only moved to the rule set this year, so it's far too early to make any assumtions there. Remember when NGTC was first taken up in the UK there were no full NGTC cars at the start of the first seaon.

I don't think there's any need for such negativity on this either, with so many spec parts any cars that are quick now, should be quick 5 years down the line as there's no significant rule changes planned for a minimum of 5 years. It means for 5 years your gonna have people building and racing cars, that can only be used in BTCC, and won't go out of date or become obsolete. In 5 years anyone driving todays Honda or MG will have confidence that the car is competetive. Not to mention it's now meant teams can build cars that previously couldn't.
I think these rules have been a success so far and i see them staying long past the 5 years planned.
With WTCC going to more bizare locations and missing many of the traditional bases for large touring car support, and going with a more expencive engine. It's BTCC that's becoming more relevant, and WTCC less so as far as i'm concerned.

[ivaneurope]

Originally Posted by Alex1911

if you see the BTC spec produced during its 5 years existence

- Vauxhall Astra Coupe
- Vauxhall Astra Sports Hatch
- Honda Civic Type R
- Honda Integra
- MG ZS
- Proton
- Alfa Romeo 147
- Peugeot 406 Coupe
- Peugeot 307
- Lexus IS 200


that's about 10 models in 5 years

NGTC in 2 years has produced
- Toyota Avensis
- Honda Civic
- MG
- Audi A4
- Vauxhall Insignia
- Proton (Welch)
- Ford Focus

that's 7 models in 2 years , I think NGTC already has outclassed BTC in terms of diversity

The only reason BTC rules to die was not the regulations, but the poor entry list:
Note - Only total BTC entries will be displayed(no Super Production or S2000)
2001 - 18 BTC entries
2002 - 17 BTC entries
2003 - 18 BTC entries
2004 - 18 BTC entries(some switched to S2000 during the season)
2005 - 13 BTC entries
2006 - 17 BTC entries

So 2003-2004 was the peak of BTC rules. You say that NGTC has more diversity of cars in the first 2 years. Lets look at the BTC cars in 2001-2002:

- Vauxhall Astra Coupe
- Honda Civic Type R
- MG ZS
- Proton
- Alfa Romeo 147
- Peugeot 406 Coupe
- Lexus IS 200

7 BTC-T models during 2001-2002. But IMO by 2014-2015 NGTC will allready outclass BTC-T in terms of diversity.

[Alex1911]

Ivan you made a severe MISTAKE

you also included the duplicate entries of different drivers driving the same car but during the races

for 2003 it would be 18 BTC entries
for 2004 it would be 18 again
for 2005 it would be 13

[-=Prodrive=-]

The BTC rules were a failure because no other series took them on. If you remember at the time, the FIA were deciding on the future for its touring car series. There was some debate over the FIA maybe choosing the BTC route, in the end they chose their own evolution of super production, which was dubbed S2000. That kinda was the death knell for the BTC rules in my view. The BTCC had to adopt S2000 after that decision was made.

I do seem to recall that the BTCC almost chose the DTM rules, at least there were news stories at the time hinting at it.

Whats interesting to note is that in the BTC days there were plenty of big name drivers in the BTCC, and also some pretty big sponsors, even though there were only 2-3 works teams. Not quite sure where all those star drivers have gone, or the big sponsors.

[Alex1911]

and you forget that S2000 rules where an even bigger failure in terms of variety than BTC

in the 2001-2005 period this were the car we saw in the ETCC
- BMW 320
- Alfa 155 (ultra dominant)
- Seat Toledo
- Chevy Lacetti
- Ford Focus
- Volvo S60
- Peugeot 407

8 models in 5 years its actually worse than BTC

[ivaneurope]

Originally Posted by Alex1911

and you forget that S2000 rules where an even bigger failure in terms of variety than BTC

in the 2001-2005 period this were the car we saw in the ETCC
- BMW 320
- Alfa 155 (ultra dominant)
- Seat Toledo
- Chevy Lacetti
- Ford Focus
- Volvo S60
- Peugeot 407

8 models in 5 years its actually worse than BTC

Firstly the Lacetti was never ran in ETCC and Alfa Romeo used 156(155 was the Super Touring).

[Street Racer 77]

@Alex1911: if you mean WTCC than don't forget the Honda Accord ;D

[-=Prodrive=-]

Weren't there some one - off S2000 in the STCC too, like the Audi A4 and Peugeot 307, Mercedes C200? etc

[PhoenixWylde]

Alex1911, the Volvo S60 never raced in BTCC. I think you'll find it was the S40.

[Alex1911]

Originally Posted by PhoenixWylde

Alex1911, the Volvo S60 never raced in BTCC. I think you'll find it was the S40.

isn't this the S60 raced in ETCC ????
http://www.volvo-club.cz/graphics/ga...s60_etcc_1.jpg

[ivaneurope]

Originally Posted by Alex1911

isn't this the S60 raced in ETCC ????
http://www.volvo-club.cz/graphics/ga...s60_etcc_1.jpg

S60 has raced in ETCC.

[-=Prodrive=-]

Originally Posted by ivaneurope

S60 has raced in ETCC.

I remember seeing it at Donington, maybe 2002, 2003?

[KindaUnstuck]

No Gilham this weekend, no car available for him to race, Thorney deal was a one-off and they don't have a transporter now anyway.

[KindaUnstuck]

No Rob Austin Audis or Ollie Jackson either (along with Griffin who was never going to be doing Knockhill anyway), so we're down to a grid of 18/19 cars which probably isn't a bad thing considering how tight Knockhill is, understandable considering both AMD and RAR run on small budgets.

[Alex1911]

Knockhill was always the track with lowest entry list per season , so I wouldn't worry too much

with only 18 - 19 cars only surelly a good opportunity for others to grab points like the likes of James, Hollande or Neate

[ivaneurope]

http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=7999

Mr. Alan Gow talks about NGTC, the costs and why S2000 was a failiure in the national championships. It is very interesting to read this.

[Heidfeld]

Originally Posted by -=Prodrive=-

I remember seeing it at Donington, maybe 2002, 2003?

2002 and 2003 I think, certainly 02 as I was there as well. Rickard Rydell and James Hansen where the drivers I seem to remember.

[Alex1911]

the WSR Beamers seem very strong

and it is mentioned that the 4 Civics were slowest in both speed traps...

[Andy81]

Originally Posted by Alex1911

the WSR Beamers seem very strong

and it is mentioned that the 4 Civics were slowest in both speed traps...

Yet still quickest in FP1 breaking the lap record So it's obviously, just like everywhere else having little effect
Shedden carrying a bit of weight too which the BMWs don't have.

[Alex1911]

but Andy do you agree that for the last 2 meeting Brands GP and SIlverstone they really need to give Honda some more boost?

if they were to lose the championship which they rightfully deserve just cos they get massacred on those very long straights its would be shamefull really

Silverstone in paticular is over 2/3 ful throtle !! , the cicuit with least driving skill required and most engine power, ?? the reason why Liam Griffin actually qualified near top 10 last year

[Andy81]

Originally Posted by Alex1911

but Andy do you agree that for the last 2 meeting Brands GP and SIlverstone they really need to give Honda some more boost?

if they were to lose the championship which they rightfully deserve just cos they get massacred on those very long straights its would be shamefull really

Silverstone in paticular is over 2/3 ful throtle !! , the cicuit with least driving skill required and most engine power, ?? the reason why Liam Griffin actually qualified near top 10 last year

They may struggle a little at silverstone (although i think my idea of stuggling and yours are quite different), but certainly not at Brands. But the system is looking at everages, it factors in results over a long period, so if a car is quick at one track, they don't get unduely punished everywhere else, and if they are a bit slow at one track, they don't get an unessesary bonus.
By the way, by stuggling at Silverstone, i still think that at least 2 of the Hondas will finish in the top 5 in every race.
You've predicted the car struggling before and it never has.