iracing vs netkar pro

[mrockracing]

netkar pro vs iRacing? Its almost as though no-one cares. Total, iRacing is better then netkar pro, but netkar pro boasts better crash physics, iRacing has good crash physics, but not great crash physics. netkar pro has a more difficult but easier to understand driving experience, netkar pro doesnt have any assists at all, even in cars that have them for real, the F2 (Formula KS2) car does have TCS and ABS, but netkar pro says it doesnt. Though iRacing doesn't feature that car all of the cars have there facts straight. Netkar pro doesnt have better/more realistic physics or handling, but almost equal to iRacing in some ways, iRacing doesnt have but 1 true flaw with the physics, wich is the damage, but netkar pro has many flaws in its physics such as the handling in the Fiat 500. in that car you cant cornaer a relitivley fast corner at more then 25 mph, a Ford Mondeo or Focus could do better then that. iRacing's multiplayer is muck better then netkar pro's. The only big problen that netkar pros multiplayer has is that it almost never has anybody on it. On iRacing tons of people are on it, and nine times out of ten you can easiliy find a server for beginners or pros with all in all good competition, or let iRacing pare you up itself (read manual for details). My general conclusion is that iRacing is better then netkar pro.

[MickeyMouse]

I don't recall F2 ever having TC or ABS, source?

[menard3311]

...and the point of this thread is?

[Kazumi]

Originally Posted by mrockracing

Netkar pro doesnt have better/more realistic physics or handling, but almost equal to iRacing in some ways, iRacing doesnt have but 1 true flaw with the physics, wich is the damage, but netkar pro has many flaws in its physics such as the handling in the Fiat 500. in that car you cant cornaer a relitivley fast corner at more then 25 mph, a Ford Mondeo or Focus could do better then that.

It's Front Wheel Drive . I don't think iRacing got a FWD car. They aren't easy to simulate, and not easy to drive fast on a track, as the understeer at some point is inevitable (except when you can use e-brake )

[AllanGP]

Jetta is FWD.

[Kazumi]

And how does it drive??

[AllanGP]

Never bought it!

[darock]

Originally Posted by Kazumi

And how does it drive??

Well, a couple of builds back it didn't drive like the Jetta I used to own. Then it changed with a couple of builds. Now it doesn't drive like the Jetta I used to own either. Of course, most of my b-to-the-wall driving in that car was autocross. Only a couple of them had "high speed" sections.

But it does drive differently than the RWD cars. It does respond like people say a FWD responds... mostly. I wouldn't say it's cornering is exactly spot on, but a couple of drivers who did the VW Jetta thing say it's perfect.

They said it more than a couple of builds back which is why I was surprised when iRacing changed it from "perfect".

[Chronus]

Originally Posted by Kazumi

And how does it drive??

Until 5 months ago: badly.

I have driven several Seat and Audi cars based on the same platform (from 1997 thru 2006), petrol and diesel, and the iRacing car was nowhere near the cars I drove.

Why it drives like that has nothing to do with being FWD, I believe. It is just how the physical models generally behave in iRacing.

Will they improve it? I dunno, I read comments stating that yes they would work on it further ahead. It depends on how popular this car is, probably.

Originally Posted by mrockracing

Total, iRacing is better then netkar pro, but netkar pro boasts better crash physics, iRacing has good crash physics, but not great crash physics.

iRacing has improved immensely in the collision physics. Damage models have also been improved, it's hard not to see that.

netkar pro has a more difficult but easier to understand driving experience

NetKar Pro is actually very easy to drive with almost all cars - and that's due to the fact that it is, as many have recognized, one of the top physics simulations.

But you have a point there: far more easy to understand NKP's driving experience, whatever happens (slides, loss of control, regaining grip, damage consequences) is easy to perceive by the driver and feels also logical. iRacing still has some way to go in this respect.

but netkar pro has many flaws in its physics such as the handling in the Fiat 500. in that car you cant cornaer a relitivley fast corner at more then 25 mph

"Netkar Pro has many flaws in its physics": "handling in the Fiat 500".

If that were true (failed handling) you would have to explain how that amounts to "many flaws". Odd.

But then you are confusing handling with physics.

Handling is partly about physics and largely about perception - how it feels to you. In that respect, whatever you think is a flaw may not necessarily be a flaw to others. As such, equating your perception of a flaw in how YOU PERCEIVE the handling to a real physics flaw is a failed statement.

Again: do not confuse handling with physics.

Finally: I have raced with other people, using the Abarth 500, and have negotiated tight corners at speeds well over those you refer; and the others, with many more hours invested in this car and NKP, were even faster.

iRacing's multiplayer is muck better then netkar pro's.

The two are not comparable as each racing sim has different objectives, different targets (audience wise).

In that regard, no sim currently available beats iRacing in regards to multiplayer and race management.

You would have to follow Stefano Casillo's work and NKP's development to truly understand what was done and achieved with NKP. If you did, you'd understand comparing iRacing's multiplayer to iRacing is comparing apples to oranges.

[muscimol]

Originally Posted by Kazumi

And how does it drive??

IMO it's quite good right now on NTM, didn't like it at all on OTM.

It requires very gentle and precise steering to avoid scrubbing tires, no trail braking, use of the weight transfers to rotate the car on corner entry and be on the gas as soon as possible with the least possible working on the steering wheel.
That's how I imagine driving the FWD car, where front wheels have to steer and power the car, so you shouldn't do both at the same time, to not overdrive them.

Summing up it's very enjoyable car IMO , the only thing I don't like about it is the DSG transmission, which takes amount of joy from the car. I'm heel and toeing and using Frex sequential shifter and it feels very immersive when combined with manual transmission model in iR.
I'm eagerly waiting for BTCC Honda - should be fun with "normal" engine and transmission.

This is my lap from Mid-Ohio I did few weeks ago when testing the car. It's about 1,3s from WR.
iRacing - VW Jetta at Mid-Ohio

[Kalifen]

Originally Posted by muscimol

no throttle braking

And when you wrote that, it suddenly occurred to me that (as a right foot braker) I never tried applying both throttle and brake at the same time in this car. What happens then? Does the brake balance actually move backwards, giving chance of rotating more on entry? That's not necessarily always a good thing in the Jetta, but I got curious. May have to try it myself next time I have the chance.

[muscimol]

Originally Posted by Kalifen

And when you wrote that, it suddenly occurred to me that (as a right foot braker) I never tried applying both throttle and brake at the same time in this car. What happens then? Does the brake balance actually move backwards, giving chance of rotating more on entry? That's not necessarily always a good thing in the Jetta, but I got curious. May have to try it myself next time I have the chance.

I'm sorry, I've made mistake . I meant trail breaking . Too many topics about throttle breaking and I've completely forgot the proper term .

As for throttle breaking in the Jetta, I'm not doing it anymore either. I don't think it is necessary in this car, it is pretty controllable during breaking and cornering, not like the Skip Barber, where I lost most of my mojo when I've changed from LFB to H'n'T :-/.

[Kalifen]

Ah

In fact, I would expect opposite outcomes of throttle + brake in Skippy and Jetta. In the Skippy that would move the brake bias forward, while in the Jetta it would move the brake bias backward.

[darock]

FWD cars really have much different braking than other types because of the unique rear loading and function. The rear isn't loaded and can't contribute much to keeping the car connected. The tires in the back see some pretty large changes to their load and that changes their ability to brake considerably.

There are some drivers who basically drift the rears around the turns by stabbing the brakes, knowing the fronts won't break loose in the time the rears most certainly will.

There is often quite a bit of difference in roll stiffness on FWDs too. Some of the cars are famous for 3-wheel cornering. Brakes don't work so good when one of the tires isn't touching the ground. So braking is an entirely different thing in FWDs.

[Hotsocks]

NKPro is about to become obsolete.

The reasons for left foot/throttle braking in a FWD and RWD are the opposite of each other. Simplifying:FWD it increases rotation. RWD it reduces it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcSAiRxmm0w

A bit OT, or maybe not... this one shows the amount of throttle needed in an M5 on a damp Silverstone to maintain a powerslide and IMO adds credence to the claim that grip isn't right in many sims.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2Vt3ybz0t0

[mrockracing]

Originally Posted by MickeyMouse

I don't recall F2 ever having TC or ABS, source?

I meant to say the GP2 not the F2, the F2 is a champ style car, therefore no ABS or TCS.

[Kalifen]

Originally Posted by Kalifen

And when you wrote that, it suddenly occurred to me that (as a right foot braker) I never tried applying both throttle and brake at the same time in this car. What happens then? Does the brake balance actually move backwards, giving chance of rotating more on entry? That's not necessarily always a good thing in the Jetta, but I got curious. May have to try it myself next time I have the chance.

So, yesterday I had a chance to test the Jetta for a few minutes. Indeed, the brake balance does move backwards when braking while applying throttle. In fact, this can result in awesome rotation and oversteer - bye, bye to the understeering Jetta! I didn't test enough to conclude if it will help laptimes, but chances are it will when applied correctly. Also, it probably will in certain situations to save a corner where you've already screwed up. Last, but not least, driving the car suddenly became a lot more fun

So thanks, muscimol, for the type-o. I do now wonder why on Earth I never ever in my simracing career thought of this before in a FWD car...


EDIT: Edit to add that to feel the effect, you need to first turn the wheel sufficiently. With not enough turning, the car will mostly just slow down.

[darock]

Kalifen, what you describe should not be the least bit predictable. The division of traction in the fronts preclude that. Sometimes they are pulling more, sometimes less. Sometimes they're steering more, sometimes less. How close they are to going beyond full traction is really not predictable and most certainly beyond a human's ability to tell which will lose how much, steering or pulling.

High speed corners really should work differently than low speed. The traction circle really gets complicated when those front tires are trying to keep lateral traction, affect acceleration, and also steer the car. And the balance of the "brakes" really gets unpredictable when the rears are doing so little.

Comparing the fronts to rears on high speed corners where there isn't much acceleration needed to the same tires on sharp, slow turns where there is a huge demand for deceleration then acceleration and it's obvious there isn't a single sentence that can describe how FWDs work under braking, or any single action.

[Kalifen]

Originally Posted by darock

...and it's obvious there isn't a single sentence that can describe how FWDs work under braking, or any single action.

Just a hunch, you have experience with FWDs, right?

Still, it's always interesting to discover new driving techniques/tricks, even though they may not be applied much. Seems to me that FWD racing is more challenging than I used to believe.

[MINIMM]

darock have you even raced or done track days with a front wheel drive car?

[wpsracing78]

Never driven Netkar - but your first point intrigued me - the crash physics thing.

I figured, being an avid NR2003 player, and knowing that the NR2003 crash physics were close to unbeatable, that iRacing's would be even better - but when I joined this time last year, they were woeful, and they've only JUST started to become bearable!

Strange that they'd ditch all of the crash physics from the NR2003 days.

[BrunoB]

Originally Posted by wpsracing78

Strange that they'd ditch all of the crash physics from the NR2003 days.

[AllanGP]

They said recently virtually nothing is left now. Also in an earlier post they said if they had realised what would turn out they would not have even started with it in the first place.

[darock]

Originally Posted by MINIMM

darock have you even raced or done track days with a front wheel drive car?

A D-sedan Saab with an engine built for their primo rally driver at the time. Think his name was Kaarlson or somesuch. I was not the owner. He was a close friend. Close enough? Got some laps in race prepared Minis, the original ones.

His 'Black Beast' and my Abarth were often the only non-Minis on the grid. We would swap off on occasion to show each other our latest improvement. How did he get the engines? He was East Coast rep for Saab back when foreign cars were being introduced into the US. I much preferred RE/RWD at the time. They also required different driving techniques.

Oh yeah, I've also driven FE/RWD 'seriously'. Never have had a shot at 4WD, however.

[darock]

Oh yeah, how did I get to lap a car I wasn't listed as the driver on? The race weekends were run by one of the sorriest race organizations I've ever dealt with. No trick at all. And hell, it was easier to cheat something mechanical.

[Kalifen]

Originally Posted by Kalifen

So, yesterday I had a chance to test the Jetta for a few minutes. Indeed, the brake balance does move backwards when braking while applying throttle. In fact, this can result in awesome rotation and oversteer - bye, bye to the understeering Jetta! I didn't test enough to conclude if it will help laptimes, but chances are it will when applied correctly. Also, it probably will in certain situations to save a corner where you've already screwed up. Last, but not least, driving the car suddenly became a lot more fun

So thanks, muscimol, for the type-o. I do now wonder why on Earth I never ever in my simracing career thought of this before in a FWD car...


EDIT: Edit to add that to feel the effect, you need to first turn the wheel sufficiently. With not enough turning, the car will mostly just slow down.

Reviving an old topic here, to follow up on this post. I am in the "fortunate" position that I have an old FWD Ford Escort that is about to die. This means I don't need to treat it well anymore, and opens up a few possibilities. One was to try learning gear shifts without clutch. To my surprise, I managed to perform quite a lot of upshifts. Downshifts were more difficult, including blipping and whatnot, but I did at least succeed a few times.

Now, to the relevance of the quote:
Finally, today, conditions were perfect for some more experimenting, with fresh, soft and sort of dry snow all around. I have always thought there's like a cool connection between sim racing and driving on snow/ice. Driving on snow feels much like sim racing in slow motion - almost everything applies, just stuff happens slower. And, what both have in common, is the lack of any real G-force Anyhow, pushing the throttle too hard results in wheelspin, braking too hard results in locked wheels, abrupts inputs may cause understeer (or oversteer), smooth driving is usually better etc.

Sooo, after having the sim experience with the FWD Jetta, where I "moved" the brake bias backwards through applying both brake and throttle at the same time, I wanted to try this in real life. And, wouldn't you know, IT WORKS! It f'in works! Oh joy! It may be a little bit tricky to get the inputs correct, but once you do, it's locked rear wheels, rolling & steering front wheels and awesome slides! On the other hand, if the pedal use is not just correct, or you're not turning enough, the result is simply some awkward braking. Would probably need tons of practice to perfect... Still, I was just smiling in my poor, old car The trick seemed to be to get to lock the rears "instantly", and if I managed this, I could also jump on and off the brake during the turn, and it would instantly switch between oversteer and understeer.


TL;DR: Driving is fun!

[darock]

Newly snowed on parking lots and empty roads are great aren't they.

When I lived in Minnesnowta, I had a Scirocco to begin with. Awesome car. And it was extra awesome on fresh snow. What you describe could be one of the greatest attractions of winter for a car guy.

I'm like you about the value of those sessions. I rank them right up there with sessions on empty gravel roads. There was a huge section of them just outside of town where one could blast about on marginal traction. Also good practice.

[AllanGP]

Yes indeed when I was actively racing ahead of one season I booked time on a skid pan to learn more about control on the limit, very beneficial!