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Unread 21 March 18, 02:17   #1
Shovas
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Default How AI times improve with AI level

I've been investigating AI, how AI level affects qualifying and race times, and how to get competitive races with a chance to win.

So far, I've come to the belief that you must qualifying in the top 3-6 to have a competitive race, with good battles, that you have a chance of winning - but AI ahead of you can't be too far ahead. Like if you'ew 0.5s-1s off pace they'll probably walk away from you.

I ended up writing a little spreadsheet to chart out AI times at 80/90/100/110/120 and see how they relate and how much lap times improve per 1% AI level increase.

Here's what I found:



^ This was the 2005 Fia GT mod, Aston Martin DBR9, at Silverstone GP 2005, ambient/track 20c/20c rising, 10am qualifying, clear skies.

Those bolded lines near the top are showing lap time improvements per 1% AI level increase. It depends on Talent files but my take away is that 1% is about 0.300s.

One thing I've noticed with those numbers is how far apart the drivers even near the top. Ideally, for close racing, you need people within 10ths, maybe up to quarter or half, of a second but these are far too far apart.

I find it's a challenge to find the right AI for every mod. For example, DTM Classics I can do 108 or so but 2005 Fia GT I'm down at 91 or so - and of course it can depend on track.

I'd love to hear other people's experience with this.

Last edited by Shovas; 21 March 18 at 03:41.
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Unread 21 March 18, 16:28   #2
GTR233
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very interesting

So finally it is not really linear : there are so many settings in many files (RCD/HDC/AIW/PLR...) that it is not really easy to fine adjust AI. In theory you should re-do what you have done here whenever you modify a single parameter to see exactly how ai reacts in game...months of work to get a perfect ai.

Did you skip qualifying or just accelerate time to finish session ?
Because skip qualifying is known to give weird grids in general

Some mods don't have rcd talents files so ai use default.rcd for all cars : it is a mid level so ai will not be as fast as top talents
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Unread 23 March 18, 05:15   #3
Shovas
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Yes, I accelerated, I know about the skip bug

I think so much of the promise of our mods is let down because we don't have competitive drivers in the top 10. You only really have 1 maybe 2 AI drivers that are within half a second of P1.

I'll see what I do lol it'd be great to have a tight, close race
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Unread 23 March 18, 16:16   #4
MarioAndretti
 
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I find that if I give all the AI cars a chance to put in a timed lap and then fast forward that the grid almost always is set as it should be.I don't put in a qualifying lap to simulate failure of post qualifying inspection thus starting at the back.I love working my way through slower traffic and seeing if I can chase down the leader in the time left.At 100% sometimes I can do it with a given mod on a given track.With other mods/tracks there's no way.Even if I know I will not win,I love the challenge.
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Unread 24 March 18, 18:00   #5
redamo
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Could you define "AI level increase"/what the 80/90, etc. represents? so much can go into modifying AI speeds. I hone in on AIW waypoints as follows:

//---
// WAYPOINTS Base: .80 / 1.0 / 1.2

WorstTime=(0.0000)
MidTime=(0.0000)
BestTime=(0.0000)

// 2016: Q1 0.9615 / Q2 0.9805 / Race 0.9640
// 2017: Q1 0.9600 / Q2 0.9777 / Race 0.9622 (dropped waypoints: Qual 6th / Race 2nd, 30 sec behind)
// 2018: Q1 0.9622 / Q2 0.9795 / Race 0.9625 (with cars reset, waypoints needed to be raised)
// 2019: Q1 0.9625 / Q2 0.9800 / Race 0.9640 (raise a bit for 2019)

WorstAdjust=(0.8000)
MidAdjust=(1.0000)
BestAdjust=(1.2000)
QualRatio=(0.9625)
RaceRatio=(0.9640)

AIRange=(0.1000)
AIDraftStickiness=(1.0000) // 1-5; lower may increase AI overtakes
AISpec=(0.0000,0.0000,1.0000,0.0000)
CheatDelta=(0.0000,0.0000,0.0000)
//---

focusing in on the Qual and Race ratios. I find my best setup and laptimes, then use the waypoint adjustments to put the AI's at my level maybe slightly ahead.

Race waypoint is typically at or slightly above q1 (for me); depends on MOD. You just have to experiment. I keep pit stops same for all AI's using pitstrategies cmd line in .gdb Also keep notes for each season as shown; adjusting for next season after current season race.

Several other variables can affect your waypoint settings such as driver records; but once you have those items set, tweaking waypoints can produce very close offline racing results.

It's all personal preference.
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Unread 25 March 18, 03:57   #6
Shovas
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My main problem is there's usually only one AI that is anywhere near your time and even that's hard to get. You have to qualify quite a bit with different AI levels to get to the right one.

I mentioned this to GTR233 in PM and told him to look at these real-life 2005 FIA GT Championship timings:

http://www.racingsportscars.com/Cham...x?champ=FIA+GT

Notice how so many times there's at least the top 3 within tenths of a second, sometimes the top 10 are within less than a second.

That's what I mean. Unless you have multiple AI that can keep up it won't be a very interesting race. In my experience I tend to get ahead and stay ahead and there's no real racing going on, just ends up being hot lapping.

But instead of doing what some people do and starting lower on the grid, I believe we can get the AI to a point where as long as you find the right AI level you can get the top 3-6 within 1-3 tenths and the top 10 to within 1s. That would be some brilliant racing!
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Unread 25 March 18, 03:59   #7
Shovas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redamo View Post
Could you define "AI level increase"/what the 80/90, etc. represents?
I mean the 80-120 AI difficulty level. My hope is to get to a point where I can do a few 'practice' qualis and narrow down the right AI level to where the top 3-6 AI hover around my lap time by a few tenths.

That should produce some tight, hard racing.
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Unread 27 March 18, 17:30   #8
Spin_Doctor26
 
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I have managed to adjust the AI parameters so that in a 25 lap race, the entire field of 19 cars finishes within 2-3 seconds of each other at 100% difficulty. The top 5 - 10 cars are neck and neck the whole time with a lot of passing and re-passing. I have to adjust every track to get that kind of racing, but it's not that hard. You mostly have to adjust how the AI brakes so they don't punt you in the corners with their magic brakes, then increase their overall race speed with the Race Ratio shown above.

Von Dutch has a manual for adjusting AI. I just followed that, making a fair number of global changes that he outlined and then adjusting the AI's speed and braking for each track .

Sometimes one guy will still run away with the race, and sometimes not. I've seen that in real life also. I'm a pretty good driver and have posted some very decent Hotlap times on a few tracks here on the site for GTR2 (All in the 360 Modena, my fav) so I know I'm driving pretty hard against the AI.

But it's fun to be leading the race, and on the last 2 or 3 laps, you check the rear view and the AI is coming hard and you are already barely hanging on... Or vice versa where you are trying to gain on the AI and he's JUUUUst out of reach. So I do win a fair amount of the time, but a lot of times, at the same track and same difficulty, I'm happy to place 5th or 6th. Every race is pretty different.

Last edited by Spin_Doctor26; 27 March 18 at 17:57.
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Unread 28 March 18, 03:28   #9
Shovas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spin_Doctor26 View Post
I have managed to adjust the AI parameters so that in a 25 lap race, the entire field of 19 cars finishes within 2-3 seconds of each other at 100% difficulty. The top 5 - 10 cars are neck and neck the whole time with a lot of passing and re-passing.
That's what I'm talking about! You're describing exactly what I'm looking for. You should work with GTR233 to get FiaGT 2005 to that state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spin_Doctor26 View Post
Von Dutch has a manual for adjusting AI. I just followed that, making a fair number of global changes that he outlined and then adjusting the AI's speed and braking for each track .
I'm trying to learn all this, I have that thread open in a tab right now. I'll read up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spin_Doctor26 View Post
Sometimes one guy will still run away with the race, and sometimes not. I've seen that in real life also. I'm a pretty good driver and have posted some very decent Hotlap times on a few tracks here on the site for GTR2 (All in the 360 Modena, my fav) so I know I'm driving pretty hard against the AI.
As long as it's realistic like only ahead by a quarter or half a second per lap I'd be fine with that, if it only happened once in a blue moon. I'm sure it could be tuned out, as well, with enough effort (which I'm willing to put in).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spin_Doctor26 View Post
But it's fun to be leading the race, and on the last 2 or 3 laps, you check the rear view and the AI is coming hard and you are already barely hanging on... Or vice versa where you are trying to gain on the AI and he's JUUUUst out of reach. So I do win a fair amount of the time, but a lot of times, at the same track and same difficulty, I'm happy to place 5th or 6th. Every race is pretty different.
You're talking about exactly what I'm looking for. I'd love to do some races like this. So far it's been a lot of digging in settings for me. I'd love to get a proper championship going.
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Unread 31 March 18, 02:37   #10
Shovas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spin_Doctor26 View Post
I have managed to adjust the AI parameters so that in a 25 lap race, the entire field of 19 cars finishes within 2-3 seconds of each other at 100% difficulty. The top 5 - 10 cars are neck and neck the whole time with a lot of passing and re-passing. I have to adjust every track to get that kind of racing, but it's not that hard. You mostly have to adjust how the AI brakes so they don't punt you in the corners with their magic brakes, then increase their overall race speed with the Race Ratio shown above.
Could you give me some pointers about where to begin with an idea I've had about getting 2005 FiaGT Mod AI up to spec like you're describing?

FiaGT uses stock 2004 drivers + a few mod drivers.

What I want to do is copy them all to a FiaGT place (Team?), then start by making them all the same so they all have the same lap times, then gradually separate them out so I'll laptimes for the whole field a few seconds apart, like you're saying.

What's the best way to go about that? Copy the Talent RCD files in the FiaGT Teams folders, copy one Talent to all the others, check their laptimes, and start tuning drivers down the list?
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Unread 4 April 18, 16:33   #11
Spin_Doctor26
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shovas View Post
Could you give me some pointers about where to begin with an idea I've had about getting 2005 FiaGT Mod AI up to spec like you're describing?

FiaGT uses stock 2004 drivers + a few mod drivers.

What I want to do is copy them all to a FiaGT place (Team?), then start by making them all the same so they all have the same lap times, then gradually separate them out so I'll laptimes for the whole field a few seconds apart, like you're saying.

What's the best way to go about that? Copy the Talent RCD files in the FiaGT Teams folders, copy one Talent to all the others, check their laptimes, and start tuning drivers down the list?
No you don't have to tune it driver by driver. That's way too much work anyway. Check the Von Dutch AI sticky at the top of this page. He has a list of global changes that you need to do car by car and team by team and other things that will make a lot of general improvements. I didn't do all of the changes he listed, but I could tell what I wanted to change and what I was ok with. That method should work with your mod. I didn't bother running any mods because I'm good with the game as is and I'm not trying to break it.

Anyway, after that, you have to run some races at each track and adjust the Race Ratio and the Qual Ratio. You will generally need to make them faster by gradually increasing the value for each, but it's a trial and error thing. Von Dutch explains it very well. I tweak the changes so that it feels real at 100% difficulty.

Once you make the increases, you may also need to tweak the AI braking values so that it looks real. It's not as hard as it sounds. But honestly, I made these changes so long ago, it's tough to remember exactly how I changed the values.
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Unread 16 April 18, 02:56   #12
Shovas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spin_Doctor26 View Post
No you don't have to tune it driver by driver. That's way too much work anyway. Check the Von Dutch AI sticky at the top of this page.
I actually thought this would be the most efficient way to about it. All the settings in one place and just replicate and tweak across AIs so they end up a few 10ths separation between them. I guess there's the chance that wouldn't work so you'd have to tweak the track files...

I tried Reborn today and went through a qualifying at Donnington and the top 14 were within 2seconds. That's better than what I see from default or 2005 FiaGT. That would probably produce a decent race. Problem is Reborn has its own customized stock tracks so you probably lose a lot of that benefit on other tracks. The stock cars are also pretty poor compared to 2005 FiaGT. They feel bad in comparison. Honestly, they said they worked on physics but those cars get air on some of the front straight bumps at Donnington. It's so strange.

I have seen that thread you mentioned. Seemed like a whole lot of effort and testing at the time but I think one day when I have the energy I'll have to try to tackle that.

Maybe I could convince GTR233 to reconsider Reborn Talent for 2005 FiaGT, though
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