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Old 12 January 10, 23:18   #151
Rudyman
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Would it be possible to do something about AI "rubberbanding"?


I've yet to see really good AI in simracing, ever since the days of GPL it seems like all AI was coded by utter morons.

Yesterday I was doing some racelaps in GTL-GTR TC65 and the lead car was nearly always getting about 2 to 5 seconds clear of the pack... in one lap. (Note: Haven't made any changes to the AI myself yet, it's the default AI files.)
After three laps, the lead mini would often end up about 15 seconds ahead, which is nigh-on ridiculous. But if I restarted and managed to get in the lead, the AI lead car wouldn't really get clear of the pack. Ergo: dumb rubberbanding. Clearly it responds to the player car being in second place, giving chase. Several times I thought I was back in NFSU or GT4 with their kiddie AI.

What parameter would we have to change to make the lead car less of a freak?
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Old 13 January 10, 12:35   #152
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what is meant by the 'special brakes' ??
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Old 13 January 10, 20:35   #153
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To me the AI have way to much brake power and can stop much shorter and easier than the human player. That's what I mean by that term. Unrealistic braking.
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Old 15 January 10, 06:41   #154
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One of our biggest challenges when making the Grand Am mod for rF was to try and simulate the iron brakes. Watching an actual Rolex event, we determined that the 200 marker was the braking point for all the DP cars. Yet most decent simmers could drive the sim DP well into the 100 marker at nearly any corner. Getting the cars to need double the braking distance was extremely difficult.
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Old 17 January 10, 23:03   #155
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just wondering if this would work with rfactor as the settings in the plr file are the same as gtr2 mostly
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Old 18 January 10, 04:13   #156
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almost everything, there are some differences in features but the basic format is the same. HDC files in GTR2 are HDV files. So if you are comfortable with the two groups of names, just about all of this should transpose over to rf.
Make sure you back up any files you will be messing with though, 'just' in case.
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Old 18 January 10, 21:33   #157
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Ha-ha it doesn't help rfactor's ai i tried to make rfactor's ai so good as gtr2 during a long time...but it's not possible. Of course, i made rf ai better, it's true. But it stay poor In my opinion rfactor's ai is terrible and it's not possibilty to fixed it. Problem is in programming codes in game, so rf ai is too stupid and often run into player. So rFactor AI programmer Mike Z made your work very bad I read his answer on question about AI in rfactor it's absolutely BIG LOL
so forget rfactor. It's not playable offline game. GTR2 is better than rfactor for offline gaming. And it's bloodly fact
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Old 19 January 10, 09:05   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marianf1 View Post
Ha-ha it doesn't help rfactor's ai i tried to make rfactor's ai so good as gtr2 during a long time...but it's not possible. Of course, i made rf ai better, it's true. But it stay poor In my opinion rfactor's ai is terrible and it's not possibilty to fixed it. Problem is in programming codes in game, so rf ai is too stupid and often run into player. So rFactor AI programmer Mike Z made your work very bad I read his answer on question about AI in rfactor it's absolutely BIG LOL
so forget rfactor. It's not playable offline game. GTR2 is better than rfactor for offline gaming. And it's bloodly fact
Don't know what your experiences are like but I have found that you can get really good racing in rFactor you just have to do the work. Also if your AIW file is flawed then you'll never have a good race, but at the vast majority of tracks you can have great races in rFactor. When I get some free time I'm planning on releasing something similar to my ai mod that I did for GTR2. Remember that GTR2 is simply a version of rFactor. underneath the skin they use the same engine.
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Old 19 January 10, 10:34   #159
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Vondutch NO! You aren't right. I check it. I can play with gtr2 with ai, I break and block ai car, I don't give opportunity ai to pass me, and ai don't run into me! And AI aggressive is maximal level! It's really fun! Gtr2 offline racing is fantastic! But in rfactor it's not possibility, it's terrible, ai rf don't break or break bad and run into player, besides rf ai keep your driving line even when player's car is on this line...it's so stupid. No fun, no racing... In rF I always must think about ai, about stupid ai breaking points and ai driving lines... It's no fun. I want to drive in rf with ai having good fighting with changing positions, but it's not possibility. And I think it's no way to fix this problems.
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Old 19 January 10, 10:58   #160
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vondutch51 it is the best modification for GTR2. Now I can do offline Races and it makes a lot of fun.
Thanks for the great modification.

best regards form Austria
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Old 19 January 10, 11:24   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marianf1 View Post
Vondutch NO! You aren't right. I check it. I can play with gtr2 with ai, I break and block ai car, I don't give opportunity ai to pass me, and ai don't run into me! And AI aggressive is maximal level! It's really fun! Gtr2 offline racing is fantastic! But in rfactor it's not possibility, it's terrible, ai rf don't break or break bad and run into player, besides rf ai keep your driving line even when player's car is on this line...it's so stupid. No fun, no racing... In rF I always must think about ai, about stupid ai breaking points and ai driving lines... It's no fun. I want to drive in rf with ai having good fighting with changing positions, but it's not possibility. And I think it's no way to fix this problems.
That's fine believe what you want to believe. What I'm saying is from personal experience, I'm having good offline races with the AI at most tracks. It takes some work but rF has some cool features that GTR2 does'nt have, like the ability to autocalibrate the AI(have you done that?) and more parameters to tweak than GTR2. If the AI is running into you, you need to lower the game aggression while adjusting your talent files for more aggression and adjust your player file settings similar to what I talked about at the beginning of this thread. It takes some time to get it right but when you do the ai race cleanly and its fun. Now every mod is different and some do better than others but because rF is made up of so many Mods you just cant use a blanket statement like "the ai in rfactor suck" cause it does'nt PROVIDED you work to get the settings right.

@racefan thanks for the kind words, I'm glad you are enjoying it.
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Old 19 January 10, 14:03   #162
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I don't understand. I and other sim-racers tried to fix rf ai and we had some results but we couldn't make rf ai like to gtr2 ai... Problem is that rf ai run to contact with player's car more faster than gtr2 ai, collision detections works so bad in rfactor and I don't know what can make with it. Of course I can decrease ai aggressive to zero, but it's stupid race with non-aggressive ai, gtr2 has maximal aggressive and it's good. I don't understand why you say me about different mods, i play original rf openwheel season and AI works so far from gtr2. Edition plr file gives small results and not correct problems. If you know how I can make rf ai like gtr2 ai or more better, please tell me about it.
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Old 19 January 10, 19:04   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vondutch51 View Post
Don't know what your experiences are like but I have found that you can get really good racing in rFactor you just have to do the work. Also if your AIW file is flawed then you'll never have a good race, but at the vast majority of tracks you can have great races in rFactor. When I get some free time I'm planning on releasing something similar to my ai mod that I did for GTR2. Remember that GTR2 is simply a version of rFactor. underneath the skin they use the same engine.
An Rfactor AI mod would be great, just out of interest what tracks and mods have good AI in Rfactor? this is a genuine question as I race a lot offline.

Also how should the aggression level be set for good races?, I'm guessing this is mod dependent which is the main reason why I find it difficult to have a good race with the AI in Rfactor and don't have the time to test and find out.

I do find GT Legends, GTR Evo and GTR2 provide better AI racing than Rfactor
out of the box when just using in game settings not PLR/AIW tweaks etc. This is a key thing for me as I don't want to have to manually alter files outside the game to be able to have a decent race.

Thank you very much for the GTR2 AI Mod, I've had some very good races using it so far

Is there any chance in the future of releasing something similar for the Power and Glory mod?
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Old 19 January 10, 19:55   #164
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if I install VonDutch's AI mod in my GTR2 now, can I still continue with my in-progress 2004 championship, or will it get screwed up and I'll have to start over? I wouldn't really like to abandon it as I'm in the 4th race already.
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Old 19 January 10, 20:02   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopchop View Post
if I install VonDutch's AI mod in my GTR2 now, can I still continue with my in-progress 2004 championship, or will it get screwed up and I'll have to start over? I wouldn't really like to abandon it as I'm in the 4th race already.
I've never encountered this situation myself but after thinking about it I don't see any reason why it should affect it. To be a the safe side make a backup of the bch file found in your UserData\yourplayername\Championships\Official folder. That way if you install the mod and don't like it you'll still have your bch file(which holds all the data from your championship) and can use it you want to.
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Old 19 January 10, 22:36   #166
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I decrease in rFactor aggressive to 20% and edit plr file used vondutch AI tutorial. So racing with ai in rFactor is more better now but it's not perfect yet. AI doesn't run into my rear now, but when I go to pass ai-drivers they often continues to keep driving line and beat my car into left or right sides...
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Old 24 January 10, 14:48   #167
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I Have a question ? why with the RS Spyder on the le mans track, the car stop in the pitstop every 4 lap !!!!

i don't understand !

do you have an explication ? please
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Old 24 January 10, 16:03   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokuto View Post
I Have a question ? why with the RS Spyder on the le mans track, the car stop in the pitstop every 4 lap !!!!

i don't understand !

do you have an explication ? please
if you are using the v2.41 SCC mod, there was an error in the tire files that caused it to pit early for new tires. However, this should affect many more cars than just the RS Spyders.
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Old 24 January 10, 16:22   #169
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thanks and how change that ?
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Old 24 January 10, 16:41   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vondutch51 View Post
When I get some free time I'm planning on releasing something similar to my ai mod that I did for GTR2.
You absolute legend <3
.
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Old 24 January 10, 17:46   #171
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Quote:
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thanks and how change that ?
two possible solutions at this time.

1. open up the tyr files used by the mod and edit the AI wear line.
the files are LMP900F1c.tyr and LMP675f1c.tyr. Edit the AI tire wear rate for all the dry weather tire settings, both front and rear. Try this value.
AIWear=8.0228e-8
That will immediately prevent you from racing online so back up your original files before editing.

2. There is a SCC beta tire in the GTR2 misc files download section. It should work well at all tracks EXCEPT the older layouts of Le Mans. The long straight generates too much heat for the current tire, I'm testing a new Le Mans only tire for the older cars at the older layout VLM circuit.
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Old 25 January 10, 22:16   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehenrie View Post
two possible solutions at this time.

1. open up the tyr files used by the mod and edit the AI wear line.
the files are LMP900F1c.tyr and LMP675f1c.tyr. Edit the AI tire wear rate for all the dry weather tire settings, both front and rear. Try this value.
AIWear=8.0228e-8
Thanks for the info, your SCC mod if fabulous.

...but that makes another question arise as well: what kind of indicator/coefficient is that?

8.0228e-8 is a value that reminds me the excel format. What does that 'e-8' means?

It's surely a mathematic formula (alright, everybody got here). I wonder if it has an easy meaning...
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Old 26 January 10, 00:04   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobwilliams View Post
Thanks for the info, your SCC mod if fabulous.

...but that makes another question arise as well: what kind of indicator/coefficient is that?

8.0228e-8 is a value that reminds me the excel format. What does that 'e-8' means?

It's surely a mathematic formula (alright, everybody got here). I wonder if it has an easy meaning...
All the files in any of the ISI family are riddled with them. Take it as a very very very small number. 0.0000228 or something like that. I asked a very similar question last year because they do not use a consistent format. One line will have e-8 and the next will have e-008. Both mean the same(as far as I can tell)
We just found a number that fixed the cars pitting and settled on that. My last test with P2 soft tires and 2005 cars had the AI using 30% or more for one full fuel stint. That implies the tires for the AI were basically shot when they came in to fuel up. With the old tires, the AI wear rate would reach higher than that in just a few laps. So we just lowered the AI wear values to ensure the tire lasted.
dh
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Old 5 February 10, 03:37   #174
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I'm finding the ai work great in a multi class gt race. However if I put prototypes and gt's on track together it becomes a bit of a destruction derby, the prototypes just don't have the capacity to anticipate the speed differential and tend to slam into the back of the slower traffic. I wondering how much success everyone else has had with running proto's and gt's. Is this really just beyond the limits of the ai??
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Old 7 February 10, 10:18   #175
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I was going to ask a similar question. Except I was wondering what the key line changes I have to make to:
1) Stop the prototypes crashing into the back of the slower GT's
2) Allow faster cars to overtake slower ones on a straight without slowing down

Thanks in advance.
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Old 7 February 10, 21:49   #176
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Shouldn't this thread be deleted as well? The other thread "canīt access vondutch's ai mod anymore" was deleted...or censored...so...this one should have the same ending! Or did the censorship failed??
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Old 8 February 10, 07:07   #177
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O come on! This thread is full off very usefull information, and nothing 'wrong' had been said here, this must stay!
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Old 8 February 10, 12:52   #178
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I'd just like to know what went wrong.
I'm shattered that after all this wait and hope the AI mod which would have fantastically improved offline racing has been snatched from under our noses.

Isn't there anyway that this can be fixed????

Please!!!
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Old 8 February 10, 13:00   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollion View Post
O come on! This thread is full off very usefull information, and nothing 'wrong' had been said here, this must stay!
There was nothing wrong with VonDucth's AI Mod either...so this thread is as "legal" or "illegal" as the mod! So please put the AI Mod back online!! And let the dude come back!
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Old 8 February 10, 13:55   #180
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He only got a week off. That's a relief. He has put a lot into this community. Give it a couple of days.
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Old 8 February 10, 15:41   #181
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Default What does 8.0228e-8 mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobwilliams View Post
Thanks for the info, your SCC mod if fabulous.

...but that makes another question arise as well: what kind of indicator/coefficient is that?

8.0228e-8 is a value that reminds me the excel format. What does that 'e-8' means?

It's surely a mathematic formula (alright, everybody got here). I wonder if it has an easy meaning...
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehenrie
Take it as a very very very small number. 0.0000228 or something like that. I asked a very similar question last year because they do not use a consistent format. One line will have e-8 and the next will have e-008. Both mean the same(as far as I can tell)
It is a mathematical "shorthand" way of expressing a number which may have many digits ( most often zeros) either ahead of, or behind, the decimal point. The number following the "e" tells you how may positions to move the decimal point, and in which direction, in order to express the number in a traditional format.

The format is formally known as "Scientific Notation". It was adopted as a simple means of expressing very large, and very small numbers, efficiently, and accurately. Emphasis on "accurately"!

If the "e" number is positive (+) move the decimal point that many places to the right.

If the "e" number is negative (-), move the decimal point to the left.

Examples:

8.5e+7, 8.5e007, 8.5e07, 8.5x10^7 are all equal to: 85,000,000.0

8.5e-7, 8.5e-007, 8.5e-07, 8.5X10^-7 are all equal to: 0.00000085

(^) means raise to the power of (2^3=8)

If there are 100.0e20 stars in the universe,

we could say there are 10,000 billion, billion stars (10 sextillion) stars in the universe

or, we could say there are 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.0 stars in the universe.

Therefore: 8.0228e-08 means 0.000000080228

Enjoy your day!

Last edited by carham; 8 February 10 at 15:53.
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Old 8 February 10, 16:02   #182
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I was wondering what the key line changes I have to make without making all the changes listed in the mod to:
1) Stop the prototypes crashing into the back of the slower GT's
2) Allow faster cars to overtake slower ones on a straight without slowing down

Thanks in advance.
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Old 8 February 10, 17:02   #183
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Anyone?
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Old 8 February 10, 17:46   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ep16 View Post
I was wondering what the key line changes I have to make without making all the changes listed in the mod to:
1) Stop the prototypes crashing into the back of the slower GT's
2) Allow faster cars to overtake slower ones on a straight without slowing down

Thanks in advance.
I'd add to that they shouldn't nearly all detroy themselves by accident or mechanical failure on the longer races.

I think the problem is that it's not that simply and there seem to be many factors involved.
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Old 8 February 10, 17:55   #185
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Ok thanks, it's just anoying that they keep crashing and then having to pit to repair the damage. Are there any solutions to stop the cars slowing whilst passing on a straight. BTW i am using this mod on another install and it is amazing. Thank you VonDutch when you comeback.
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Old 8 February 10, 18:08   #186
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I got a little AI question. (I GUESS it's AI related at least...)

Is there some line to edit which allows the retired cars to be removed from the side of the track? I vaguely remember there was some setting like that in F1 Challenge (I may be wrong, as it's been LOOOONG time since I last played that...), but I have some recollection of a setting that dictates how many seconds a retired car will be stuck at the trackside...anything like that in GTR2?
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Old 9 February 10, 02:55   #187
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Quote:
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Ok thanks, it's just anoying that they keep crashing and then having to pit to repair the damage. Are there any solutions to stop the cars slowing whilst passing on a straight. BTW i am using this mod on another install and it is amazing. Thank you VonDutch when you comeback.
It's all covered in Von Dutch's tutorial. Increase the number that is associated with Aero Damage. By raising this number alone, you limit the amount of sheet metal that gets crinkled, and that keeps the AI running at a consistent pace throughout the race. And they don't keep diving to the pits to fix relatively minor damage.

Keeping them from running into slower cars is tougher, you basically have to neuter their braking to a point they don't go barreling into a corner. This, however, cripples their lap times and reduces the challenge of racing for all but the slowest among us.

VD's tutorial also covers changes needed to help the AI drive more aggressively.

And this may be the line in the plr file that you want to change to remove dead cars from the track faster or slower.

Vehicle Removal="30.00000" // Seconds until stationary vehicle is removed from track

dh
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Old 10 February 10, 02:54   #188
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Back from the land of the lost! Anyways DH covered that nicely. I repeat this again, better AI performance is a COMBINATION of all the things covered here and in my manual. It is not so simple as editing 1 or 2 lines.(Wish it was cause that would make editing P&G A LOT easier! Remember this is not so much a patch but a band aid for GTR2's AI performance. To truly fix it would require access to the games code and the knowledge of how to rewrite it in order to fix the shortcomings. In all honesty it would probably require a complete overhaul of how the AI is controlled. I wish Dev would re-examine GP4 as it had a great AI, probably the best although VGP3 is very nice as well.
I know that many of you want the AI improved when using the prototypes mod. Doing the steps I've outlined will help some...but imo I feel that realistic 4 class racing in GTR2 is probably more than the game engine can handle. Like DH said above you can fix one aspect but then you encounter a new challenge. If you want good racing using the prototypes you should limit it to them. Adding GT1 and GT2 cars is just too much. Maybe there is a way and I encourage you guys to keep experimenting with it, but don't get your hopes up. The best racing using my mod is Single Class, followed by 2 class such as GT1 and GT2, anything further and it kinda degrades imo.
Anyways nice to be back with all of you.

Last edited by vondutch51; 10 February 10 at 03:01.
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Old 10 February 10, 03:02   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopchop View Post
I got a little AI question. (I GUESS it's AI related at least...)

Is there some line to edit which allows the retired cars to be removed from the side of the track? I vaguely remember there was some setting like that in F1 Challenge (I may be wrong, as it's been LOOOONG time since I last played that...), but I have some recollection of a setting that dictates how many seconds a retired car will be stuck at the trackside...anything like that in GTR2?
Isnt that in your .PLR file, along with debris removal time?
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Old 10 February 10, 11:40   #190
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First of all, welcome back vondutch! Good to see you here again

about the protoypes.... 4 class racing is possible I think... The biggest problem is the extreme difference in speed....
the first thing I noticed when I started racing the prototypes is that they are way too fast... Same goes a bit for the default Gt and NGt classes, but the proto's really are a lot faster then they are in reallife, thus creating a massive difference in speed between LMP's and GT's...
(for an example, see bottom of my post)

The proto's seem to have way too much downforce... I am currently working on a first season, ALMS 2000 with changed physics.. first to make the GT's and GTS a bot slower, so that they are on pace with reallife times, second project is to overhaul the physics for the LMP's. I think that when I have slowed them donw to realistic times the difference in speed will be lower, and in combination of the stuff that vondutch had found out, it might be possible to have some good 3-4 class races.....

most bumping and crashing between AI happend under braking and in corners..
we know how we can change the braking so I'm gonna run some tests on that, I've also managed to reduce the cornering speeds on the LMP's so it might work....
I'll have quite some work to do but I hope to have some good results within a month.


example
I do most of my testing at Barcelona, so I used that to get the times more realistic..
First thing I noticed is that qualifying times in reallife are about 1.40 for the GT class in 2003, where I could easily manage a 1.36 in almost any GT.... Thus I lowered the grip in the tracks GDB-file. Also made some tweaks to the cars hdc files, so now I drive about 1.46 in a Porsche GT3-RS, 46 high in a GT3-R... 1.40's and 1.41's for the GT's... seems more realistic to me...
matching the AI is not too hard with your great tutorial!

Next I looked at some times driven by the LMP's at Barcelona. I'm using the FIA Sportscar Championship as a reference, they drove on barcelona from 1999 to 2002.
laptimes are about 1.34 in qualy to 1.36/1.37 in racetrim...
With the prototypes I could easily go below 1.30... 1.28 or something....
Thus I decided to change the proto physics. Mainly decreasing the downforce. I'm now getting about 1.33 in the Audi R8. That is still quite a big difference in speeds but much better than the default I think....
Next thing to do is change the AI's behaviour and then I hope to have some good multi class racing
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Old 10 February 10, 17:03   #191
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i sincerely hope your efforts pay off Apollion
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Old 12 February 10, 18:53   #192
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Just wanted to say I really enjoy this AI mod, I've started a new driver career and have been working my way through the custom championships and the racing has been very good. The AI now is the best I've raced against in a GTR/RACE game and I would say out of all the driving games I own only GP4 is better.

If only the same could be done with Rfactor, but with all the mods/track variations available I don't think this will ever be possible, although if one was to concentrate on certain tracks and one mod at a time I'm sure great things could be done.
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Old 12 February 10, 21:19   #193
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When I get some time I want to do some Ai improvements for mods I like in rFactor as well as GTR2. The Endurance Series by Enduracers would be one, along with GPC79, V8Factor and several others. In GTR2 the SGT300, and 500 would be really awesome with a better AI. And throw in any of the additional FIA seasons as well. But right now I'm still working on the P&G v3 Beta and that is a LOT of work. There are over 225 cars in v2.1 alone, that need talent files and editing not to mention editing all the hdc and dmg files etc, and trying to get historically accurate results. But in the end it will be worth it cause I think v3 will be really special and work very nicely for you offline guys.
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Old 12 February 10, 21:22   #194
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Your time spent on PnG is very much appreciated, v3 should be great, I can't wait.
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Old 14 February 10, 12:24   #195
John Green
 
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P&G v3 with Von Dutch AI !!!!

Offline heaven.

Your long, long hours of research and implementation are very much appreciated.

Respect
John
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Old 14 February 10, 17:20   #196
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Very good guide. Thanks for your hard work.
In my .plr file I raised the "AI corner grip usage" from default .93 up to 1.0 and now they drive much better(more realistically). No more rearending the AIs in the corners. They drive like they are trying to win the race instead of trying to cause me to wreck. I'm going to have to lower the AI ability just a touch now. It's so much better! Try that simple adjustment and see what you think.
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Old 14 February 10, 18:54   #197
trigger1984
 
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Yeh just dropping in to say thanks, obviously lots of hard work gone into this and it's got me back into GTR2, which still offers one of the best overall experiences with weather, night, etc.

I'm using it in conjuction with changes to the Qual Ratio, Race Ration lines in the track folders. There was another thread on here somewhere detailing what changes to make. This helps remove the super qualifying ability the AI have. I'm working my way through the tracks to make them more balanced. at 100% I have it so it take's a real effort to be near or at the front of the grid but now instead of blasting by the AI in the race there's a much better balance between qualifying and the race.
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Old 15 February 10, 14:19   #198
Mildrew
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Many thanks for this VonDutch,i have a problem with the AI cars pitting a lap after they already pitted,not sure if it's a AI problem or a problem with the track,i had the same problem in GTR1,it's very annoying and confusing
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Old 27 February 10, 14:04   #199
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Does the AI react bad if I try to reduce their wet grip a little bit, anyone tried? I'm getting tired of them ALWAYS running away from me in the wet because I can't take the corners in wet as fast as they do. I don't want to increase my own grip because I would feel like I'm cheating, so is the AI still able to stay on track if I drop their wet grip a bit closer to the one human player has?
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Old 28 February 10, 11:50   #200
matmo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopchop View Post
Does the AI react bad if I try to reduce their wet grip a little bit, anyone tried? I'm getting tired of them ALWAYS running away from me in the wet because I can't take the corners in wet as fast as they do. I don't want to increase my own grip because I would feel like I'm cheating, so is the AI still able to stay on track if I drop their wet grip a bit closer to the one human player has?
If you lower AIwetgrip value in GDB file, they will be slower at rain.
I think 10% less might be enough
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