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Unread 19 January 10, 15:32   #101
Wulf
 
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Hi!
Im new to the forum and virtual racing cause thats closest I'll get to racing in general
But hey! Any racing is better than no racing

Anyways, I saw that Doo(btw great thread and thx on making things easier) mentioned form of braking like "left-foot-braking" and in later posts is mentioned "heel to toe" technique(by resureksyon), I dont know if I understood it right... Is in some forms that the same or is it like different in some or many aspects, the "left-foot-braking" and "heel-to-toe"?

Just to say I am somewhat familiar to "heel-to-toe" technique, but not the "LFB"...
Thx again and this is awesome
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Unread 29 January 10, 23:45   #102
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Well in simple terms Left Foot Braking is treating the car like you would if you were in a kart, Left foot for braking and Right Foot for the accelerator.

It's common in Rallying and F1, once your off the line with an auto shift box you've no need to use the clutch so you can use your clutch foot to brake with instead.

It allows you more control to trail brake into a corner and also ease the transition from brake to accelerate and vice versa.

I'm getting better at it after a month or so practice.

Allan

Last edited by AllanGP; 29 April 10 at 07:41.
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Unread 23 April 10, 08:36   #103
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its probably been asked here before, but when do you exactly blip the throttle while breaking? can you do it right after pressing the clutch as you are shifting down into neutral? or does it have to be done only while in neutral, and then only when you have blipped the throttle can you push the stick into a lower gear?
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Unread 23 April 10, 16:41   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backb0ard View Post
its probably been asked here before, but when do you exactly blip the throttle while breaking? can you do it right after pressing the clutch as you are shifting down into neutral? or does it have to be done only while in neutral, and then only when you have blipped the throttle can you push the stick into a lower gear?
To a great degree it depends on the transmission. But with the average H-shifter you can blip effectively anytime after you press the clutch pedal regardless of where the shift lever is. (but to be effective, the blip needs to come shortly before you release the clutch pedal, ie, dont hold down the clutch pedal longer than necessary.)

Heal/toe is a right foot exercise where you are braking with your right foot and simultaneously blipping the throttle with the right foot (side of right foot or heel of right foot). If you are going to use the clutch downshifting you cant left foot brake (unless, like me you have two left feet). In some race cars it is impossible to left foot brake due to the steering shaft being directly between the shift and brake pedals (Skip Barber Formula 2000 for example).
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Unread 26 July 10, 11:21   #105
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Regarding finding the right brakebalance. I have seen recommendations of running a bunch of laps and gradually move brakebalance to the rear until the rear becomes a little nervous and then do a click or two forward. Great stuff that, but for the timepressed racer I would instead suggest to while running intended fuel-load simply slam the brakes at the end of the straight until the car stops. Press replay, go to view the car from the side and see which pair of wheels lock first and duration until lock on all fours. Do adjustment accordingly and run the test again until all four wheels lock at the same time.
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Unread 26 July 10, 16:59   #106
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that won't necessarily work immediately since tire temp and pressure can be unequal after running some distance - it'd change where the brake balance needs to be over the course of the run.
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Unread 27 July 10, 06:14   #107
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It seems only loaded replays are possible to view with a semi freecam around the car, so not much timesaving there...
It works well with Race series though.
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Unread 11 September 10, 04:37   #108
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Nice Guide,
Do not know if you covered this in your guide, but when I was racing karts (just as a hobby in a league, nothing serious) but one thing one of the instructors told me was when entering a turn, turn your head and look at the apex, by doing this you naturally guide your vehicle to that point helping hit the apex. Not really sure if this is possible in a sim, but still good info, it really helped me hit the turns better and a little more aggressively.

I don't race karts any more but still hit the occasional kart track at rental places, and this tip still sticks in my brain and still helps be a little quicker than the rest of the people I race against, but no all of them There is that pesky weight issue I have to deal with but if they can't drive correctly I can usually keep up with them in certain sections of the track, mainly the technical sections because of this.
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Unread 12 September 10, 21:45   #109
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it absolutely works in sims, using a head tracking solution (like trackIR or freetrack) or if you happen to be rich, a wide-screen or even head mounted VR setup does wonders.
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Unread 1 December 11, 23:00   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEHawk View Post
Nice Guide,
Do not know if you covered this in your guide, but when I was racing karts (just as a hobby in a league, nothing serious) but one thing one of the instructors told me was when entering a turn, turn your head and look at the apex, by doing this you naturally guide your vehicle to that point helping hit the apex. Not really sure if this is possible in a sim, but still good info, it really helped me hit the turns better and a little more aggressively.

I don't race karts any more but still hit the occasional kart track at rental places, and this tip still sticks in my brain and still helps be a little quicker than the rest of the people I race against, but no all of them There is that pesky weight issue I have to deal with but if they can't drive correctly I can usually keep up with them in certain sections of the track, mainly the technical sections because of this.
Excellent point. and really works.

I always drove Shift 2 in helmet view, and it felt natural. Even IRL, so much more accurate and pre emptive.
Returning interest to GTR 2, has some form of look-to-apex....but I need to play with the G-force/World movement settings.
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Unread 12 April 12, 00:20   #111
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excellent data!

Ty Doo and all
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Unread 28 May 12, 03:30   #112
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Could someone answer my question please?

I'm trying to downshift and blip while braking, but telemetry shows when I press down the clutch and engage gears my braking gets weaker and then it gets harder when bliping. As a result it seems longitudinal G-force goes up and down and sometimes some lock ups...

How can I avoid that??

My pedal set is I think, decent enough to do heel and toe. The brake pedal is close to the accel and quite stiff and the clutch is stiff too.
But I just can't seem to hold the brake pedal consistently while downshifting.

Doo wrote, "Almost every driver will stop the car noticeably faster when not downshifting at all." and I see what he means there because my braking is waaay better if not downshifting at the same time (well at least for me)!
It's just really difficult to not lock up while braking hard and hearing chirping sounds.

But then another question would be if I suck at it and shouldn't be doing heel and toe, when should I downshit??

I usually drive old GTL-GTR2 cars with modified brake torque values (similar to P&G cars' values) so can I keep going in the same final gear (usually 4th) to near the end of the braking zone and then downshift to the 2nd?

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 04:23. Reason: wording
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Unread 28 May 12, 18:05   #113
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i know what youre talking about since im having the same problem most of the time. i have to brake a bit earlier which is of course deadly for decent lap times. i dont know if there is a technical aspect other than practice. me, im getting better during a race.

regarding your last questions, i do this sometimes trying to outbreak someone. just breaking hard and then directly shifting to the gear needed for the corner but with blipping, too. Ive noticed that even if you got the right speed you release the clutch to fast and the wheels lock.
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Unread 29 May 12, 19:39   #114
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Left foot clutch with Right foot Heel/toe downshift braking with throttle blip is a real world skill and thus (to my mind) one worth learning.

1) It takes lots and lots of practice to do well (at least for me). You therefore must decide whether you have the motivation and character necessary.

2.) It is a skill that doesnt work on most real stick shift automobiles because the brake pedal is much too high under braking to properly blip the gas pedal.

3.) It is easier to do on a real sports car (with pedals set properly) than on a sim pedal set. On, say G25 pedals, there is too much play and too little resistance in the brake pedal for very consistent braking while blipping Lots of practice will help. I got the Nixim pedal spring/rubber insert that helped a great deal, or you can spend more and get a pedal with a load cell.

4.) It takes Lots of practice to insert all those downshifts without extending your braking period. It is easier to do with an H-Shifter than with a Sequential because you can skip gears going down. Going down 3 gears with a sequential under braking (say from 5th to 2nd ) takes 3 full heel/top/blips while the same exercise with an H-Shifter can take as few as one. BUT:

4A.) The blip(s) must be strong enough or you will lock the rear axle and spin out, thus harder when skipping gears with an H-Shifter.

4B.) Practice makes it much easier to insert 3 or 4 heel/toe/blip sequences into one heavy braking period and ultimately even allows you to start your sequence significantly after beginning to brake (thus allowing for some engine braking at the beginning). Delay your downshift(s) until near the end of the brake zone.

5.) Gitter done in a straight line so you will not be using the clutch and trying to blip while trail braking. (In the turn you need to either be on the brake or on the throttle, even if just "maintaining".)

Why go to all the trouble, when ever more modern race cars dont require it? Well, if you ever want to drive a real race car you gotta start in a lower class. Also, it translates well to series that dont require it (as long as a clutch and shift stick are still available (One of the reasons NASCAR sees "Road Course Ringers" hired to drive on non-ovals is their ability to Heel/toe.)

It is great fun (in iRacing in the Skippy, or Star Mazda) to be able to count down 4 gears braking into the Sebring Hairpin while your feet do all the work as you are concentrating on line, and other drivers.

Enjoy.
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Unread 30 May 12, 07:39   #115
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Thanks for your detailed explanation, Gutshot!
I'm hoping to get into iRacing in the future but right now struggling to get the basics down so I'm still practicing with old cars. I pretty much suck at the moment.

I think my G27 with the Nixim mod v2.0 is ok for heel and toe. I've stuffed some more rubber buffer and tweaked with Dxtweak2, so now about 90% of travel is registered as 100%. The first stage is kind of soft while the second is reaally stifff.

I've done some research and am starting to realize that it takes a lot of practice and.. well looks like a looong way to go till I can put 4 heel/toe sequences! Am I motivated enough...err I think so..

What I've found out is that heel&toe is pretty much a necessity if you want to race. It seems (very roughly) there are two kinds of it.

1) press down the clutch and shift down and then rev match while engaging the clutch.

2) press down the clutch and put it in neutral, and then blip while quickly releasing the clutch, and then clutch again (double clutch) then shift down.

This then F1 racer Satoru Nakajima does both of the two kinds in this video at 4:30, 5:33, 6:05.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lew--Lv2SaY

I'm not sure which one is better lap time wise. Nakajima was, surprisingly, a bit quicker than Senna despite the use of the second method (Senna doesn't seem to be double-clutching in the NSX). His double clutch fast or what..

I know I'll never be able to drive like that, but now I'm thinking maybe my brake pedal is too stiff...
I almost cannot fully brake so every time I heel&toe I yell like a Karate master just to keep about 80% pressure but usually end up with 40% when I start a heel/toe sequence...
Unlike Mr. GEEZ, I get a lot worse during a race so I'll keep practising by myself.

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 04:26.
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Unread 30 May 12, 15:09   #116
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I am currently modding my G25 pedal set to make those techniques easier. I bring the brake pedal on a higher plane than the rest of the pedals and the accelerator pedal closer to the brake pedal (same distance as the clutch is by default). This allows me to blip the throttle while braking at 60%-80% travel without having to brake my right leg lol No money spent at all, only using a bit of wood, 4 screws, and the brake and accelerator pedal plates from my second G25. 4 holes drilled and that's it.
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Unread 30 May 12, 19:35   #117
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Before the Nixim pedal mod I also drove with a plywood insert to raise the brake pedal about 3/8th inch and move the pedal face closer to the gas pedal. You are right that it is a perfectly helpful and totally free mod to the G25 (assuming you have the right length and thread pattern screws on hand).

With Nixim I am now back to stock pedal height and spacing.

(Luckily double clutching downshifts are today mostly on trucks and school buses, while single clutching heel/toe is still a good skill for race enthusiasts.)

3 additional thoughts on Heel/toe:

1.) Your shoes matter, particularly their width. Narrow sole is better in a confined open wheel formula car like the Skippy (and with closely spaced sim pedals like the G25), otherwise foot placement becomes too important and you tend to sometimes inadvertently squash the gas pedal continuously with the side of your right foot when braking rather than doing a proper series of blips. (I actually use my right heel for the blip, but some prefer to use the side of the foot.) When I was being taught to drive the real Skippy at the real Sebring my tennis shoes soles were too thick and the top of my feet hit a crossbar above the pedals, then I tried driving in my stocking feet which worked ok but hurt a lot. I quickly went out and bought some Sparco narrow open wheel racing shoes and that made all the difference. Most of the time I wear the Sparcos when sim driving with the G25 and I find that the narrowness makes it easier for me to avoid clumsiness.

2.) When learning a skill you have to learn it correctly. Something as complicated (for me) as heel/toe downshifting took first tracing out every element and sequence clearly in my mind and then executing it slowly for lots of repetitions. The idea is to make the process mostly unconscious. To start with I had to label each step "a, b, c...." (In the real Skippy they start you out with lots of single downshift braking exercises). Once you get the footwork and handwork sequence down pat you can abandon the mental "a, b, c..." and move on to just counting completed sequences (The Skippy has no gear indicator so you need to count (1, 2, 3...) downshifts when braking and also as a rhythm thing). Missed (failed) downshifts are a great tool for knowing you made a mistake. Usually a mis-timed or too shallow blip, but can also be mis-timed or too shallow a clutch push. In a real car this is always instructive, but in a sim you always have to wonder how well the sim actually mimics real life downshifting. iRacing seems to be quite realistic (though way back in Grand Prix Legends I always appreciated the gear grinding sound that accompanied my mistakes). If the sim doesnt penalize bad downshifting technique you can develop bad habits without knowing it.

3.) Heel/toe is done under braking so if done right there is no lap time penalty over any other method, assuming you dont have to extend your brake zone to get in all the downshifts (practice, practice, practice) and assuming you are able to keep your braking pressure un-varied while blipping (very very difficult). The good news is that when learning heel/toe an extended brake zone is not the end of the world because when braking for a corner it it totally true that the way to go is "slow in and fast out". Line, proper apex, and early on the gas on the exit is what produces a fast lap.
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Unread 1 June 12, 02:32   #118
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The good thing about the G27 is that you can change the positions of the pedals but it's always so much better to mod yourself so you can make it just perfect for you.

Awesome.. you actually learned to drive a race car at Sebring, Mr. Gutshot! And THANK YOU so much for sharing your learning experiences and the practising method they actually teach with!!

I understand GTR2 isn't useful when it comes to practising gear shifts.

I use motec everytime I practise but I also try to listen to the tire sounds when I shift down. Right now I'm just practising downshifts with rev matching, no heel/toe. Most of time the tyres make scrub noises so I know I still suck big time.

I 've found a solution to my first problem though.
Soo everytime I try to heel&toe my braking gets messed up. And I thought hmmm that's weird when my left foot goes down to clutch it seems my right kinda goes up.... it turned out the brake pedal and clutch pedal is too stiff, or rather my chassis is too soft so the additional pressure of pressing down the clutch was doing it to my right foot...

Anyway, I'll keep on doing lots of those single downshift excersises from now on.

Maybe in two months I can race with the AI.
Anyway thanks again for your help

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 04:35. Reason: wrong words
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Unread 1 June 12, 07:07   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pro bono1984 View Post
...Maybe in two months I can race with the AI. ...
It took me about 4 months to be able to race the GTR2 ai clean and side by side on 87 while using the clutch on Spa, Monza, Imola, Catalunya, Brno, Donington, Ena, Magny Cours and Hockenheim (I had no addon tracks back then). The car I used was the BMW M3 GTR; H pattern gearbox, clutch usage mandatory on downshifts and full throttle upshifts in real life.
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Unread 10 June 12, 07:28   #120
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I've been doing some research on braking and found braking to be so much more difficult in real life racing than I previously thought.

According to a former SGT driver/teacher from FTRS (FORMULA Toyota RACING School), the initial stage of braking (where you build up brake force) is the most difficult.

Understandably, most beginners tend to not get on the brake pedal hard enough (looots of pressure needed) but then by the time they seem to overcome that problem, they start getting on the brakes too hard, thereby locking up the brakes before generating adequate load on the tires.

Someone coined this phenomenon "lock, ease and then brake again" (it doesn't make much sense in English).

The teacher says this phase of braking (threshold braking) is much more difficult than the later stage of braking (degressive braking) where you reduce some braking pressure in order to avoid lock-ups.

By the way I think this initial stage of braking is not simulated well in most sim cars because the majority of sim racers have potentiometer pedals.
And I totally understand this because it's rather strange and frustrating to only brake at say, 90% of pedal throw and then modulate from there (at least for me).

But the problem is, in my opinion, since most sim racers are unaware of this fact and also with the use of stock spring pedals, they tend to complain too much about brake lock-ups.
I think maybe HistorX by Mr. Niels Heusinkveld is a good example.
Despite some experienced real life drivers said it's right on, it seems a number of people criticized that the cars lock-up too easily.

So as a result many modders with real life race engineering experience feel pressure to compromise maybe?
Personally the more realistic the better for me 'cause you can decrease brake pressure easily in game but you can't increase more than the default 100% value...

Anyway, back to braking, to learn to brake properly, according to the racing coach, first you have to learn to lock up the brakes and then, practise to generate the right amount of pressure as quickly as possible.

I understand GTR2 is a game and all but I think with a realistic pedal it could be useful to learn not to lock up the brakes in emergency situations and stuff like that, maybe?

Anyway, hope this is useful for someone like me, someone who practises threshold braking in GTR2.

P.S. I think it's beneficial to consult with real life sources that have no references to "sim racing".

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 04:58.
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Unread 22 June 12, 02:14   #121
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Recently I've read on virtualr.net that slamming on both the brake and throttle pedals with 100% travel can save you from spinning out in most sims.

I'm not saying iRacing or Nkpro and the like are crap or GTR2 is the best or anything here because I've never tried any of the sims listed there (LFS, Nkpro, iRacing, pCars, rF2 to be exact).

But I thought one of the reasons why this is possible in sim games is interesting in regards to braking.

Firstly, it seems this is not that unrealistic in terms of car physics.
If the front tyres are locked, the front end will go in the direction of travel (straight) while the rolling rear tyres have more traction so the result is the car straightened out.

Why then pro racers don't use this in real life?

Mr. Stefano Casillo from Kunos Simulazioni says it's because in RL you brake with your strength of your leg, as opposed to the position of your foot in sim games.

Max braking (the end of pedal throw) in sim games is usually only just a little above the limit of traction, but in real life there's no definite max like that, so you cannot replicate this manuever in panic situations without stalling - there's no max braking input in real life, so finding the right pressure to lock up only the front tyres is extremely difficult when the car has lost traction and starting to spin out.

To me this is very interesting because in my last post I wrote I'd found that threshold braking is very difficult in rl and it seems that most sim racers are concerned about oversteer/understeer very much but they are totally ignorant about braking.

From my understanding, perfect threshold braking is very difficult even for pro's so the advice I got is that if you can only achieve a 7 braking (from 1 to 10) that's fine, just make your braking consistent.

All this maybe pretty obvious for people with real life racing experience, but honestly, I didn't know any of that until recently.

So hope this will reach out to other sim racers who lack any real life experience.

Cheers

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 05:09. Reason: word choice
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Unread 24 June 12, 11:07   #122
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From what i know in F1 they slam the brakes at full pressure most of the time.As the car at high speeds is very stable due to aero as well,they have to start reducing and modulate pressure once they drop speed.
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Unread 27 June 12, 02:17   #123
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Thanks for your comment.

I think reducing braking pressure after threshold braking is called degressive braking and it differs from threshold braking.
My writing isn't very good so please read my last 2 posts if you could.

So I hope I was clear about Mr. Stefano Casillo's statement in my previous post.
He says there's no maximum or full pressure in real life (the strength of your leg muscles is the limit).

Therefore, it should follow that there's at least some threshold braking involved in Formula 1 as well, I think.

Otherwise, I imagine, it'd be a leg press championship?
because even 10 kg more than rivals would mean a shorter braking distance, I suppose.

By the way, according to wiki, a bodybuilder can leg press like 2,300 pounds/1,040kg and most men can do like 500 pounds/226kg or somtimes 1,000 pounds/454kg with limited motion. Sorry about this lb/kg stuff, it's confusing.

So anyway, do racers with stronger legs have a definite advantage in an overtaking maneuver or qualifying?

If you look at F1 racers they don't exactly have huge bodybuilder leg muscles, I think. There's a Youtube video on Nico Rosberg training in Monaco but his leg muscles do not seem to be paticularly well developed (no offence) but he is super fit for sure, endurance wise!

So all this means that Rosberg DEFINITELY needs to do more leg presses.
Just kidding.

This actually means that braking skills and endurance abilities are much more important in motor sports.

I'm not sure about the technical aspects of F1 and I guess actual technical info on the brake pads or tyres are not well known to the public so I think, unless there's some regulation, it's hard to imagine that no threshold braking is required.

I'm not much of a technical person and F1 regulations are confusing and changing a lot (once there was ABS in F1?) so I won't turn this thread into a Formula 1 discussion thread.

But one thing that is clear is, high downforce doesn't necessarily mean that you don't need to use threshold braking skills - imperative motor racing technique that can take "a lifetime to master".

A Super GT driver named Kogure said he was very surprised by an F1 car's downforce on his first testing session, even though obviously, he regularly drives SGT cars and Formula Nippon cars.

He went on to state that when he drove the F1 car, he could not brake well because he used his left foot for braking (which he wasn't used to), adding that "I can brake with 70 or 80 kg of pressure consistently, but with my left foot it was a bit more difficult."

What one could infer from this is that presumably that much pressure is required for threshold braking in SGT or FNippon cars, because I think, why would he mention specific numbers otherwise?

Clearly, lots of negative G-force occurs in SGT and FN cars so 70 or 80kg becomes a lot more pressure with -3G and stuff, maybe?

P.S. I've been practising threshold braking by driving old cars with modified brake torque values but forgot to write that clearly (it's mentioned in post 112).

But changing the arbitrary max pressure (100%?) in hdc files will do the trick much easier with a program like Textcrawler, and it's better to do it that way to retain the original physics.

I've come to think in-game max pressure values in sim games are arbitrary because the above statement that your leg muscles are the limit of braking pressure should hold true, unless you can rupture the brake hose or something.

Although probably the biggest reason is because of soft potentiometer pedals most people use.

Caution: You definitely need to have a 30 or 40kg pressure pedal, which is close to the same pressure (roughly) to lock up a production car, otherwise it's just flat out weird.

If you can get a stiffer pedal like Mr. Niels Heusinkveld's, maybe you can simulate faster cars like GT cars, which probably take more than 80kg pressure to lock up, as Takashi Kogure hinted at.

Sorry about my English.

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 05:33.
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Unread 15 July 12, 05:21   #124
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It's been more than a month since I started practising heel/toe and been racing quite a lot so I think I'm well on my way to developing bad habits.


What I noticed though is that sometimes the rear gets very twitchy when engaging gears.
I'm trying my best to release the clutch gently and blip alot but somehow it happens out of the blue sometimes so when that happens I press the clutch all the way, and I'm sure that's not a good thing.

Anyway I think this is GTR2 telling me my heel/toe isn't working.

Sim racing is getting more realistic quite fast though expecially hardware wise.
I've read some reviews on the club sport pedal V2 and they praise how good the oil dampening brake pedal is.

For people going for realism I recommend the Nixim mod V2 or a squash ball for the DFGT and stuff.
I used to use a DFGT and it works pretty nicely so if you're a budget sim racer like me, I tell you a racket ball is easy to install and is a decent solution.

Of course for the G27 the Nixim mod is great and I like the clutch spring better than the stock one 'cause I've heard the race clutch in general is stiff and has short throw.

You can see a former F1 racer, Ukyo Katayama's heel&toe here from 0:25 and the clutch seems to have very short travel.
They say it's a rare footage so check out his braking! (1:57)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cOQtgWiYkw

Admittedly he wasn't that fast (10th at that point?) and probably it's a practise session but when he modulates brake pressure, it seems to quickly go down and then up a bit suggesting how difficult degressive braking in a high downforce car is.

Also I thought threshold braking to be more of a violent karate kick but it looks kind of progressive.

Of course in comparison, you have to get on the brakes a lot more progressively in a production car. Otherwise the front will lock up instantly.

By the way since driving alone in the C6 isn't fun I've added several sports cars from the ultimate sports car mod? and the BMW challenge mod and Lexus-ISF mod and stuff.

I usually increase max brake pressure to about 110%, and more for GTL cars. For some cars like the Daytona coupe I up to 140% or more.

The braking distance stays pretty much the same or sometimes longer depending on your skills, I think.
It's just more prone to lock-ups on a bumpy track so you have to be careful and aim for a 7 braking, or you will overshoot (which I often get greedy and do just that).

140% seems to be a lot but if you look at the hdc file you see the brake torque is 1717kg for the front and 1.4 times more of that is like 2400kg so pretty close to the P&G value, which I think is around 2350kg.

By the way, as I've said this "100%" or this percentage per se is arbitrary in that in RL you can press more if you like; it's just that the brakes will tend to lock up more.
A bodybuilder may be able to press like 300% but that doesn't mean much, I think.

Some people are aware of the limitations of sim games, because pressure just cannot be translated into pedal travel.
And also, on the flip side, I don't think it feels very realistic if the brakes lock up when you depress a soft pedal or brake "to the plastic" if you will.

What I'm trying to get at is that GTR2 is still very realistic for a 6 year old sim game because you can mod it yourself.

Anyway, for me GT cars are too fast to learn the basics so if anyone at all is intereted in the fundamentals of motor sports, I recommend getting those mods and you're good to go.

Cheers.

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 05:55.
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Unread 15 July 12, 18:24   #125
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At the Skip Barber School (driving the Skippy) They taught us to avoid braking too abruptly (heavily) and also to avoid coming off heavy braking too abruptly. When you brake you are affecting the car balance and the front/rear tire adhesion. Too abrupt is unsettling and is actually temporarily changing your brake bias setting.

Too abrupt heavy braking will upset the car balance by loading the front wheels and unloading the rear wheels to the point that the rear has reduced tire adhesion. This can have the same effect as locking the rears before the fronts, ie a spin.

Coming off the brakes too abruptly can also cause understeer on the fronts through loss of front adhesion, and can cause oversteer in the rear similar to engine braking lockup in instances where the throttle "blip" is not sufficient. Ie, the rear steps out in the turn. Try to avoid coasting in a heavy turn. Just a little power will avoid engine braking spins.

This is highly nuanced stuff and very difficult for me to always get right. Advice is to 1.) Don't slam on the brakes. 2.) increase your downshift "blip". 3.) Come off the brakes a little less abruptly and immediately slide to the gas pedal and give at least enough power to avoid coasting. 4.) If available, as in iRacing, set your brake bias more forward while you practice consistency. (Many folks keep brake bias too far to the rear for their skill level, or when under stress/excitement, as in a race, end up spinning.)

Last edited by Gutshot; 15 July 12 at 18:39.
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Unread 15 July 12, 20:48   #126
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That up there is THE biggest annoyance to correct in the AI...they're almost super-human ability to late-brake. Messing with Von Dutch's AI mod has helped solve it for the most part, but I still sometimes lose a corner to the AI thanks to my trying to smoothly brake for it vs the AI's F1 brake method of slamming them on at the last second. I still usually can carry more speed thru the corner than they do, tho, so it does balance out most of the time.
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Unread 17 July 12, 04:48   #127
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It's been a while since I last drove a GT/NGT car but I do remember the AI sometimes kind of dive-bombed and rear-ending me especially when driving a slower car like the 350z.

I believe this problem's been solved by the reborn team though by increasing the brake power the AI use.
Here it is.
http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/sh...3&postcount=50

Mr. barry implies the AI use only 20% of the brake power with the default setting.
While I'm not entirely sure about that but with all my GTL cars set up like this "BrakePressureSetting=100" the AI do behave well even when I drive a very slow car.

About the rear twitchy problem I think it's 'cause my blip is inconsistent; most of the time too much and in general not matched with the rev so GTR2 sometimes does that without notice, I think.

As for smooth braking, now I can see that because when I get off the brake pedal too fast some cars tend to oversteer.

What makes this complicated though, is that the instructer from the Formula Toyota school says you have to kick the pedal but not literally I guess, because all cars are different in handling, and also some race cars need lots of braking pressure applied maybe?

He does add however that it's like an open fist punch so as to not "kick through it" and lock up the brakes. I think this is more like the famous Bruce Lee one inch punch.
So maybe it depends on the car.

By the way I watched that F1 footage from my last post again and I noticed at 1:13 he modulates brake pressure and also applies some throttle too.

Also I checked another footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvxDW...eature=related
and you can see at 1:14 before the famous chicane, Katayama's initial braking seems to be smooth and somewhat progressive so I don't think it should be a bone crushing kick.

Anyway I'm not looking to sim-drive a fast car like that so I'll stick to my C6 and older cars.

I understand that iRacing is newer and has more features like a better transmission model and so on, but one thing that's holding me back is because of competitive people.
They scare me.
I'm also afraid to wreck somebody inadvertently and plus I'm a foreigner/Japanese and my real name so you know that kind of stuff.

I'd like to try the skippy and some of the modified production cars but I think I've read somewhere that in iRacing there's no brake pressure % value so if it's set too low, it's no good for me.

Right now, I'm starting to really enjoy GTR2 so I guess this is good enough for me.

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 06:07.
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Unread 17 July 12, 17:56   #128
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Not to in any way say anything bad about GTR2 (which I loved for years), I prefer iRacing for a number of reasons, especially for the dead accurate laser scanned tracks.

Brake pedal force and pedal travel is fully customizable for each vehicle in iRacing. I have recently installed the Bodnar device on my G25 to give even more precision (way more precise than I am).

I too worried about screwing up some other driver's day with my foolish mistakes and because of that worry I very seldom race. However, I spend a lot of time online in iRacing practice mode (after learning the track offline). In practice mode nearly everyone is quite nice if you make an honest mistake so long as you are not an obvious wrecker. No points or demerits on practice and you learn some poise in traffic, how to pass and follow and stay on the track. All against other human beings who are somewhat less predictable than ai. None laughs if you spin out several times in a session, as many of the others do also.

Yep, on iRacing you have to use your real name, but thats no problem because lots of folks have unpronounceable (to me) names. So as long as your real name is not Adolph Hitler or Pol Pot or Angelina Jolie, there will be no funny comments (and even so, who cares?).
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Unread 17 July 12, 20:15   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gutshot View Post
...or Angelina Jolie...
Lol

I'm spending hours in practice session to learn tracks and setups for them with the hope of racing on-line this winter (GTR2)...after watching race vids here and on YouTube, I think that the GTR2 AI (which I've admittedly tweaked a bunch) is a better learning tool for me...if I can survive and be semi-successful racing against the still-twitchy AI in that, I think I'd be OK against real live drivers. I hope.
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Unread 18 July 12, 02:45   #130
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LOL maybe there ARE guys named Hitler in Germany.
Sucks to be them.
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Unread 18 July 12, 05:05   #131
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According to German/Austrian friends of mine...the family name does still exist, but is rarely used openly.

Last edited by Tkrau; 26 July 12 at 04:45. Reason: spelling 'does' correctly
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Unread 26 July 12, 01:53   #132
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I've read another book about driving techniques, and although I've found most of its contents kind of irrelevant for me, I think I've understood some more about the basics of braking.

It's pretty straightforward that good threshold braking (as close to the limit of the friction circle as possible) is important in motor racing; when your braking's too weak or too strong, it's obviously no good and of course too gradual or too abrupt is not good either, lap time wise.

But to be honest, I was wondering why most instructors say the initial application of braking is so difficult.

The author explains that it's because of lack of info on the state of your car.
He says that when your car is stationary, you are unable to gather info on what the car is doing through the steering wheel and chassis and stuff (duh), and that kind of information is essential for driving at the limit.

Similarly, when you begin to brake, you have almost no idea how the brakes work untill the very moment when the pads touch the brake disks, because brakes can be variable to some extent.
This's why he says, it is one of the most difficult techniques in motor sports.
I hope this makes sense in English....

It seems that some teachers even say not to use any object as a marker, because your braking point is always changing. Easier said than done.....

One another thing I've noticed recently is that the braking point does change somewhat in GTR2. Maybe it's a byproduct of my modded brake percentage value but I think, it's safe to say it's inherent in the physics of GTR2 - maybe it's just more pronunced as a result of my modding.

So I know GTR2 doesn't simulate wind effects and stuff, it's still pretty good for an old game.

Cheers.

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 06:14.
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Unread 26 July 12, 04:59   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pro bono1984 View Post
It seems that some teachers even say not to use any object as a marker, because your braking point is always changing. Easier said than done...
In-game, and in-car, I'd sort of disagree with that...I usually have braking points as part of my overall track strategy, but that doesn't mean that I'm on the brakes at EXACTLY that point every time, every lap, etc.

I have noticed that in general I'm braking earlier than the AI cars do, but I also usually carry more speed than they do thru most corners ...the Mulsanne chicanes @ Le Mans for example (since I've been driving that circuit a lot recently); I'm braking a second or so earlier than the AI and might be passed going into the first right @ L'Arche, but most of the time I'm also ALL OVER their rear bumper coming out of it and can either sit there in the draft and be towed along or move around them fairly easily...until we get to La Florandiere and do it all over again.
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Unread 27 July 12, 04:01   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tkrau View Post
In-game, and in-car, I'd sort of disagree with that...
Yea, that's pretty much what I thought when I first read that.... I understand why he said that though. I think it's because a lot of things do not stay constant in RL, and probably it has more impact on braking than most of us think.

I used to race online as well. I wasn't alien fast but did sort of ok. Well, at least that's what I think anyway.

So you're still feeling the AI brake too late even though you did lots of plr modding? but but you can decrease the two values in the file like a LOT and the problem solved no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tkrau View Post
I have noticed that in general I'm braking earlier than the AI cars do, but I also usually carry more speed than they do thru most corners
...
but most of the time I'm also ALL OVER their rear bumper coming out of it and can either sit there in the draft and be towed along or move around them fairly easily
Maybe it's time you do some aiw modding then? All you need is the Jimola aiw editor and it's quite fun, I must say.

You know sometimes Ai are too slow or fast in some corners especially at add-on tracks. What you can do is add a line like this, "wp_event=(1.200,0,0)" if they're slow. Mostly trial and error. The key is to increase that value more than the default 1.000 value. It takes some time but my offline racing experience is pretty decent because of this!

As for my AI, they brake pretty human-like, because I spent lots of time fine tuning. I wish there was a way to make them lock up the brakes though...

This may come as a surprise, but after I increased braking pressure, I actually had to decrease the AI braking efficiency quite a bit.

I'm not sure about those fast default cars. Some of them may drive weird because of downforce I thinik.
But I think for sim-racers with little RL experince, practising threshold braking in a GT car isn't that good an idea, in my opinion.

By the way the author of the book wrote something like "it's pathetic that some people can't even brake hard enough" and I was like, ha! easy for you to say that... Most of the contents were too advanced for me too. So...

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 06:23.
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Unread 27 July 12, 04:52   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pro bono1984 View Post
Maybe it's time you do some aiw modding then?
Already am...I'm using Von Dutch's AI mod as a base and tweaking from there, although offhand I don't recall if I've done my Le Mans yet or not...given that I've been qualifying around 5th, 6th or so (out of 25), I think its had some work done to it.
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Unread 28 July 12, 03:05   #136
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I've done some testing and I can't say for all default cars, but increasing the seemingly arbitrary (100%) pressure deoesn't seem to work for the couple of NGT cars that I tested. Braking distances became noticeably short, and the brakes became oversensitive at low speed.

But as I mentioned several times, I'm not trying to practise braking in a fast car, because it makes this whole braking thing a lot more complicated and way too difficult for novice drivers, but I was thinking of moving onto an NGT car or something eventually so this is a bit disapointing.
Of course if you're knowledgeable, you can mod physics yourself because the core physics engine is VERY capable and good, but obviously this is impossible for me.

So recently I asked around about iRacing and found out that most cars do not have options for brake pressure. And most of them seem to lock up at any speed, so I thought that's pretty decent...
What's interesting is that even the brakes of the HPD seem to lock up at high speed so this might mean that its linearity setting is rather effective.

Note; this doesn't say anything about the physics engine. Could be good or bad, I don't know 'cause I haven't tried it. GTR2 is the only sim game I play, and to be honest, most sim games seem pretty realistic, so no need to get into the debate of "my game is better because that is crap" here. In fact this is a braking thread, and Ali G says respek.

It's important to stress here, in RL, you have to accustomise yourself to applying lots of pressure as quickly as possible to be able to lock up the brakes, and then learn to brake just above the traction limit consistently in order to use almost ALL available traction from the tyres, otherwise your lap-time suffers.
Race instructors say this is what divides professionals from amateurs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doo View Post
... don't underestimate the advantage of a good braking! You might feel it doesn't matter that much, but think about this. Statistically, on average, you are braking about 10 % of the time. So, a 2.5 % improvement in your braking performance will squeeze of 0.25 % of the laptime. On a 1 min 30 sec laptime that makes 0.225 seconds. In a two-hour race: 18 seconds. And that's only 2.5 %...
I think this is a good point and this is the meaning of this whole thread.

I know in RL, there are some people who cannot brake hard enough at first (actually I've felt their braking myself)... but of course too hard is not good either. So it's only natural that we can't get nowhere near as good as pro's when it comes to performance braking (and that pretty much means racing in general).

That is, of course, weight transfer is directly connected to threshold braking. If your braking is not at threshold, weight transfer just cannot be as effective, simply by virtue of the fact that there's less weight to transfer as a result of no good braking!
So that means less load on the outside tyres and therefore your cornering speed decreases and you have to turn your steering wheel more etc etc...
Hence the above statement 'racing in general' - not being able to brake like a pro pretty much means much slower lap times in RL...

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 06:32.
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Unread 28 July 12, 17:21   #137
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I wonder if people fail to take brake-induced weight transfer, as well as downshifting, into account while prepping for the upcoming corner (especially if it's a for-real corner, rather than a simple bend in the straight that you can basically float thru on half-throttle or better); I have a routine for setting up for the corner; hit my braking point and brake rather hard and only then start downshifting (the idea being that the initial braking has at least started the weight transfer forward; I also run a rather significant forward-leaning brake bias with this in mind)...especially in a car where I use my paddles rather than the stick (allowing me to drop gears as fast as I can), the combination of engine-braking on top of 'real' braking usually gets me to the apex with enough speed to exit the corner faster than the AI cars in general. That bit of delay between braking and downshifting is also most likely why I brake a little earlier than the AI does tho, as I mentioned up there earlier.

I'm really looking forward to racing on-line (hopefully this winter, when I'll have more time) to see how this approach works against real drivers.
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Unread 29 July 12, 03:31   #138
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Hi Tkrau,
Ok, my English is no good so I think I've misread your comment. You said you're preparing for online-racing in a league this winter. Don't know why I thought you're already racing online though...
Anyway, I humbly put forth my thoughts with respect to online-racing.
I'd be glad if my experience could be of any help.

First off, as doo says, engine-braking doesn't help you stop that much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doo View Post
Some of you may believe that downshifting is a genious help during the braking in slowing the car down. This is basically a general misconception. Downshifting is not the big help you thought it would be! Yes, reving the engine will slow the car down. But there are certaing problems that are caused by using the engine to decelerate.

1) It only affects the driving wheels.
2) It makes the proper modulation extremely difficult.
3) It puts unnecessary stress to the engine and transmission.
However, from my online-experience I should note that,
a)you should brake very hard to register 100% as quickly as possible, because in GTR2 lock-up doesn't occur that often especially at high speed.
b)use downshifts as engine-braking, because there's no need to heel/toe while using a paddleshifter; in other words the above point 2) doesn't apply.
c)it's VERY important that you have a program called XD to check your engine health in online-racing due to point 3).

In my opinion, if you're practising for online, it may be a good idea to make the AI faster. 100% AI is very slow as compared to real people so braking earlier than the AI might mean that you won't be competitive in the league.

A good indication would be that if Ai brake later than you, they should carry more speed going into the corner too. In online-racing, if you brake early, and the guy in front brakes late, he will be much faster during the corner and he'll be gone pretty soon...

The reason is simply that good braking induces more weight transfer, and more load on the outside tyres means that you won't have to turn your steering wheel as much. I understand that you can feel this because the steering wheel gets heavier in real life. An instructor dubs this 'the magic grip'. This is what they mean by weight transfer. This may be obvious to you but weight transfer must be very smooth too.

Also, braking early means that there is a good chance that other people will rear-end you. I had some good races, but because I drove a car with mediocre brakes, some fast people would have to change their line abruptly to avoid me sometimes. And this happend to me more than a couple of times so braking earlier than the AI may not be a good thing.

Having said all this, I must say it was somewhat easier to become fast in a default car, since braking with more available pressure has made it a lot more prone to mistakes.. Of course this doesn't mean that anyone can be alien-fast in a default car though.

I'm sure you'll do just fine if you keep on practising.
My best wishes go with you!

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 06:57.
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Unread 2 August 12, 02:44   #139
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A couple of days ago, I signed up for iRacing to see how good it is. I've only driven three cars so far so obviously I cannot pass judgement on iRacing as such. But there are several things I'd like to point out in regards to its braking physics.

First off, I have to state that imo David Kaemmer is a respected individual and very knowledgeable obviously, and below is just my mere personal opinon.

Anyway, my first impression was that the graphics are pretty good. Very frame rate friendly too. I like that. But soon when I started driving the Mazda mx-5, I noticed something...

Concerned about incident points, I started off by braking early. As I was getting more comfortable with the car, I began to push and brake later but only to find that the brakes wouldn't lock up.
I tried absolutely stomping on the brakes and the brake meter thing shows 100% but no lock-up even almost all the way to the end of the braking zone...
What's strange is that the default brake balance is like 81.5% front but the front tyres never stop rolling...
EDIT: the MX-5 has ABS so obviously this is not true. My bad.

But then, I noticed another thing...
I just could not tell lock-ups because the tyre squeel sound is not that helpful.

In GTR2, there's a tyre scrub sound and then there's a skid sound, but I'm sure in iRacing there's only one tyre sound file so braking hard (tyre chirping) and locking up (tyre skidding) sound the same... This makes sim racing even harder because sounds and FFB are all we have left.

This is unrelated to braking but I kind of like the so-called canned effects of GTR2 FFB. I know it's only half decent and I understand that understeer/oversteer is over-exaggerated and stuff like that but not that big a deal.

Overall, however, I must say that iRacing seems ok. I think the physics is rather precise in my opinion. I'm not sure if it's worth that much money in the long run though. But considering the fact that it doesn't require a high end system like rFactor 2 it's not that much maybe...

Respek!

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 07:10.
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Unread 10 August 13, 03:59   #140
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In case there's someone obsessed with braking like me (probably very few), I found a way to (kinda) simulate real life braking with high downforced race cars like the default GTR2 cars.

Basically you put GTR1-like-tyres and set braking sensitivity close to 0 with some dead zone and that's about it.
Also change some values in hdc files relating to braking like 3850kg for the front and 3080 for the rear.
The default brake disc inertia is weird like weightless at 0.001 so change that to 1.25 and 1.115. This works for almost all cars except for really light cars like the Elise.

The result is somewhat less grip at high speeds but also VERY nice lockup at mid to high speeds. obsessed much lol.

I'd heard some people say GTR1 is a piece of crap so I thought it'd be undrivable or something but it's not that bad except for the damn Porsches! But I guess rear engined high performance race cars tend to oversteer like that and it's not like driving in wet weather in GTR2 so I can deal with it. Actually if you're careful, drving in the rain is a bit easier because it seems to have a little more grip.

And again you need a braking pedal like the Heusinkveld 100kg pedal or at least something that withstands 40kg.
Here Mr. Heusinkveld talks about the physicality of real life racing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJgdfd1r3IA
I'm not endorsing his products or anything but if you like realism you know this is the way to go .

One more thing, GTR1's tyre heating values are a bit strange, always too much heat in the rear tyres but the front stays really cold. I think it's because back in the day people would have to brake with their foot hovering precariously in mid air to avoid lockups (strange isn't it) and frequent front lockups means too much heat so that's probably why it was that way.

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 07:15.
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Unread 17 August 13, 05:00   #141
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There's this good practice routine for trail braking. Basically you brake into a corner to induce oversteer and cause a half spin exactly at the apex in the end.

So I was enjoying GTR1 tyres but then.... found out that somehow, for some reason trail braking is way too easy. Even if I try to do that half spin thing at a slow hairpin it's almost impossible, which is kind of a bummer.

I think GTR2 is way better in this regard. I see Simbin made a conscious decision with GTR2 to not include lockups at high speeds because brake pedals back then were soft and so on, so that's totally understandable.
But what's up with GTR1? Why no spin at low speeds?

I checked into the tyre files and it seems to have less longitudinal AND lateral grip.
If someone could teach me or point to something useful to mod this It'd be really great...

Anyway, the practise mentioned above is meant mostly for production cars because they are a lot more understeery than race cars.

To understand weight transfer better, it'd be useful to imagine there's a heavy bowling ball kind of thing placed at the center of your car.
The idea is, it rolls forward when you brake so the front end gets heavy, which means more available grip.

Similarly if you carefully transfer that ball to the left front by turning right, there'll be more grip at the left front wheel so the car won't understeer. And feathering the brake more leads to a gentle half spin.

But of course if you're not smooth and progressive, the heavy ball crashes into the left front and the diagonal side (right rear in this case) gets suddenly loose and the car gets really upset....

As for sim racing, I know there's people who complain about the drive on ice feel. It seems to me that they are not used to all this so they spin out too often. I think if your driving is smooth, loss of traction shouldn't be that sudden.

But the dilemma is you don't feel the ball, g-force or anything when you sit in a chair with a monitor in front, so sim racing is kind of like running with a blind fold or something.
It's so much more difficult than real life and that's why many professionals have trouble adjusting to simulation. You know it's like OMG I have no idea what's going on!

So the question is how to make sim games "feel" more realistic.
Simbin says braking with a little ABS is more realistic and that's respectable, considering braking is very much dependent upon your brake pedal - like your "100%" brake force.

For me I'd like it all the way like FFB so strong so if you crash into a wall you'd have to let go of your hands so as to not injure your wrists but that's freakin extreme and that's me.

I understand it's difficult to strike a good balance because of all this, so a big respect for developers and modders. I always try not to be overly critical and say this sim game is crap and stuff like that. We all should.

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 07:23.
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Unread 24 August 13, 05:51   #142
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Just a thought..

While we know that sim games aren't quite like professional simulators in quality, we are I think, kind of unaware that treating them as such could lead to serious consequences.

You know when we are about to crash into a guardrail in a sim game we sometimes try to do something like try to steer or something, but in reality this may result in broken wrists.

Most of us know this but if we keep crashing in sim games like that while confusing sim games with reality, it may become a habit and if we crash in real life, we might do the same. Just maybe....

Anyway, there still seems to be some confusion about threshold braking in high downforce race cars so I'd like to probe into threshold braking AGAIN (please don't send me hate PMs).

First off, while it's true that some of us may not be able to lock the brakes of a race car (worse still, some can't even lock the brakes of a road car at first)..... I seriously doubt it's impossible to reach the limit of longitudinal traction at "high speeds".

I mean, pretty much because if threshold braking was not needed (which many racers/journalists call the most skill intensive aspect of motor sports btw)..... it'd be a different sport altogether.

Two racers side by side, and now let's see which racer can kick the pedal harder with more brute leg power and end up in front.....
This would be wrong on multiple levels.....

Motoharu Kurosawa (Gan-san), a famous Japanese ex-racer says the start of braking is the hardest part of the whole braking process, by virtue of always changing tarmac conditions, wind speed and direction, fuel load, brake temperature etc etc...., and he says it's difficult even for pro's and admits that they make small mistakes sometimes.

But of course, it's veeeerrrry rare to witness an obvious mistake like Bruno Senna made at Hungarian GP 2012. It was turn one and at about 300kph...
I'm sure in the pit everyone was like "maaaann, wtf?"
How desperate was he? Clearly very very desperate.

Also that engineer from the Mercedes F1 team explained that brake pressure reaches 100kg or more, although his explanation was brief and rather simple.

So in conclusion, it must be that GT cars' brakes should lock up at mid to high speed (maybe kind of like GTR1?), given that you can kick the pedal with more than 100kg of force maybe like 120kg or something.
But then you know it'd be kind of silly like, so what, are you trying to be a footballer (soccer player) or something? Doesn't really mean much...

I think Simbin made GTR1 and then altered its braking physics and whatnot for GTR2.
And again, that's more realistic with a soft pedal if you ask me.
Hence Simbin's "it's more realistic with ABS" remark, I think.

Anyway sim game's FFB bothers professional racers because it feels rather different, and the brake pedal isn't hydraulic and has no FFB (so to speak), so how "realistic" you want a sim game to be depends on many things.
And sim games are kind of far from reality so we may need to keep that in mind while playing them...... maybe.

Last edited by pro bono1984; 7 December 13 at 07:30.
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Unread 1 September 13, 15:09   #143
pro bono1984
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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I think there isn't much left to add to this thread in terms of braking in sim games.
This will probably be my last post.

First off, I'm grateful that this thread has opened up my eyes, so to speak.

Secondly, it's only natural that we'd like to think that our favourite games are the most realistic.
Truth is however no sim games are perfect with infallible physics, and "realistic" is a very subjective term when it comes to simulation games so I guess this is how people start fighting over whose game is the best.
It's very unfortunate.

For me moddability is kind of important. And I liked the default GTR2 cars. So overall GTR2 is a great game for me.
Game Stock Car seems good too, although lockups don't occur that much due to 90% being the default braking pressure.
Note here that this shows nothing about GSC's physics but the dilemma for the developer and also a compromise.
In fact I remember a physics expert from Reiza studios says the fact that all four wheels do not lock up instantly at 100% pressure means that the brakes are barely sufficient (underline mine).

Is GSC arcade and some other games are better then? I think not.
So if there's someone at all concerned about GTR2 not the best game, I'd say it's definitely still one of the best.

Furthermore, if my English spitted out something ambiguous last year, my apologies.
I should've been a lot clearer about the predicament of calculating braking pressure in percentage last year.

My point was that we don't know exactly how much braking pressure the 100% value would amount to.
Some can apply 100kg while some other can reach 150kg or even more.
Now what should be 100%?
Roberto Carlos (ex-Brazilian Footballer) may have been able to brake with 400kg in his prime, so could that be like 389.63% braking pressure?

Given that the German engineer person explained that F1 racers' braking pressure reaches 100kg, does having enormous thigh and calf muscles like Roberto Carlos get you to stop much quicker?
Of course NOT.

But hypothetically if lockups could occur only at the end of braking, that is, only with reduced downforce at 60kph or so then all racers would have Roberto Carlos legs by now, braking crazy hard with whooping 400kg or possibly even more.... Well.. this would be just silly and nonesensical.

Btw Gan-san actually says easing off pressure near the end of braking is easier than the beginning of braking.
Maybe he's wrong 'cause he can't drive, being Asian and all. I think I can brake a lot better than him 'cause I can do that pretty good in my sim game. Duh.

Some say braking is not simulated well in sim games and I happen to agree.
I don't think anyone would have a chance to get in a formula car right away like Greger Huttu but still if a sim game may lead gamers to believe something inaccurate.. well that just doesn't seem right to me.

For instance Doo says you should adjust the bias towards the rear in wet conditions but if you do that the rear end sometimes becomes twitchy under braking - this is because slamming on the brake pedal with full throw doesn't lock the brakes, even in wet weather.
It seems this has led some to believe that Doo is wrong and the bias ought to be the other way around, but...

Thank you Doo for starting this thread and moderators for making it a sticky. It's kind of a rare thread but I learned a lot.
Cheers.
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Unread 7 November 13, 15:40   #144
gregoryleo
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Hawaii
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Thanks for this thread.
I have been struggling with this very issue. I will have to read the whole thing a couple of times before it settles in my (old) brain better and is active enough to use on the track without have to think about it.
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