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Unread 13 April 13, 20:16   #1
DucFreak
 
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Exclamation [ADVICE] - for wheels with low steering lock (360º and below)

A fellow simracer in an online-event (Hi, Astronut!) prompted for a common issue with POWER&GLORY when using steering-wheel controllers which do NOT have 900º of rotation, for steering-lock.

By default, POWER&GLORY has the steering-lock in the car setups prepared for steering-wheel controllers using 900º of rotation (two turns and a half, lock to lock), which became widely popular and, perhaps, the most common among simracing enthusiasts in recent years, such as the ones listed right below:
Quote:
  • Logitech G25; G27; Driving Force GT; Driving Force Pro
  • Fanatec Porsche and Clubsport models
  • Thrustmaster T500RS
We realize that there are still plenty new users coming to P&G, some using newer wheels but at low rotations, and users with older wheel controller models, which do have limited steering lock (such as 180º, 240º, 270º or 360º of rotation). We understand that this aproach can cause some issues to users with such wheels, and make their experience not as good as it can be.
For this category of steering-wheel controllers with shorter lock-to-lock rotation, we can list the following ones:
Quote:
  • Logitech MOMO Racing; MOMO Force; Driving Force EX; Formula Force GP
  • Thrustmaster Ferrari wheels (also Guillemot ones); RGT 'clutch edition'
  • Microsoft Sidewinder
  • TSW Stock Evolution (and older models)
  • ECCI TrackStar 6000 (and older models)
  • Madcatz (any model)
(note: there may be more models that are not listed)
If this your case (i.e, if you're using one of these wheels, or a short rotation in your wheel), please read on, as there are some things to do, to make POWER&GLORY give you a better experience with it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"So what to do then?"

First, make sure you have the latest version of Power&Glory installed (that is v3.1 as of this date).
If you're using the most updated version already, then follow these three steps:


  1. Run the P&G Launcher, and click on the green button "Player".
    This will provide improved parameters for various gameplay aspects. (you can read more about it here)


  2. Set the steering sensitivity at 50% in the game options/controls
    (to get a good feeling with the settings that will be mentioned ahead).

    In straight simple terms, at 50% sensitivity the steering is "spot on".
    The response of the steering will be neither too responsive/brisk, nor too unresponsive/sluggish. Just like as it was pretended to be then.


  3. Decrease the "STEERING LOCK" value in the car setup.

    The default value here is too much for wheels that do not have 900º of rotation (or if you prefer to use a much lower rotation) so, for these, you'll definitely need to bring down the value for the "STEERING LOCK" in the car setup.

    Although these are not "scientific" values (if interested in that, see the second part of post #7), the following values are a quick way to get the steering-lock better suited for such wheels:

    • For wheels with 180º of rotation*, try to use a value between "7" and "9".
    • For wheels with 240º or 270º of rotation, try to use a value between "10" and "12".
    • For wheels with 360º of rotation, try to use a value between "13" and "15".

      --------------and for wheels with adjustable rotation-----------------------------
    • If using 450º of rotation, try to use a value between "15" and "18".
    • If using 540º of rotation, try to use a value between "18" and "21".
    • If using 630º of rotation, try to use a value between "21" and "24".
    • If using 720º of rotation, try to use a value between "24" and "28".
    • If using 900º of rotation, just leave the steering lock as default (in P&G it's set for 900º).


    After you changed this, save the setup and load it on the next time you use that car, or remember to adjust this right before going on track with any car.

    NOTE: feel free to discuss and advice better or specific values if you wish, by replying in this thread.

Ok, with this done, give the P&G cars a try again.

You'll see that you can now use a much lower steering lock value in the car setup (correct for such wheels, and lower rotation), also without any issues when leaving the pit-box.


*As side note for the guys using wheels with 180º rotation, notice that some cars won't go below 10.0 steering lock in car-setup (in-game) and, as these wheels need to use lower steering-lock than that, in such particular situation you may wish to reduce the steering sensitivity a bit (lower than 50%) to avoid a too nervous steering.

.

Last edited by DucFreak; 29 September 17 at 17:10.
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Unread 14 April 13, 16:40   #2
asloth
 
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Hello Ducfreak,

thank you very much for your effort and taking care of this problem. I believe this mod and its community is unique and very social. Unfortunately i have overlooked this post yesterday, because i was looking below for new forum post and not above at the sticky threads.

I bought a SRW-S1 a couple of weeks ago (coming from gamepad) and although i had some trouble with this wheel in the beginnning (relating to setup in Png) i am now very happy with it. I improved my time at AnderstopGP, for example, about 15 seconds. Because i havent found any example to setup this wheel in Png, i spent some time with trial and error and have found what fits me the most for now (also see attachment):

Deadzone = set to 0 % - Very satisfied with the precision, so not required

Sensitivity = set to 7 % - Maybe the most important value in detail for me. In the beginning this was set to zero, but i wanted to have less steering wheel rotation for small corretctions on the lane. As far as i understand the effect of this value is even -e.g. when i set my wheel to 270 d. and turn up sensivity, it is like turning the "on the fly" degree button back in the direction of 180 degrees.
But somehow i had the feeling that this setting value only affects the first couple of degrees, which brings me to the question: Is it somehow possible to make sensivity not even, i.e. when i set my wheel to 270 degrees, i only want to have the sensivity active in the first 45 degrees (across 45d. a decrease of sensitivity towards zero) of the steering wheel rotation? Thus, i would still have full 270 degree steering wheel rotation.

SSPS = 51 % Did not enough testing with this value, all i know is that it makes your steering sluggish when reaching at higher speeds.

The steering lock value stayed almost unchanged all the time. I only reduced it about 3-5 d. sometimes. As i have no force feedback i pay attention to the screeching of the tyre and i always try not to let them squeak. Concering my settings, i knew if i turn my steering wheel over 90 degree it would start to squeak. So i tried not to go over 90 d., this means only in a "close call" situation, e.g. not to fly out of a corner.
All in all i was very satisfied with the handling and i had not the feeling that i would "cook my tyre", like you said yesterday ducfreak. However i know that it is easy to get in this range, if you are not careful.

So today i followed your suggestions. First of all, before i changed the .plr file value, i did some testing on familiar AnderstopGP with steering lock reduced to 13.5 degree. In the beginning, i did not like it, because it was so unusual and needed more rotation movement of the steering wheel compared to 30 degree steering lock. So changing this value was something like turning the degree button of my wheel towards 360 d. Still with 270 d. it was now noticeable that it is almost impossible to get in the screeching/cooking tyre area under normal circumstances.
After some testing i changed the value of the .plr file to "25.00000". As far as i understand this value doesnt affect when i am racing on track, only in the pit lane?

Anyway it worked, and i was now able to get the turn out of the box without crashing into the opposite wall. Further test laps with steering lock set to 13.5 degrees have led to an improvement on AnderstopGP - before about 1:45.200 and today 1:43.500 - so i dont know if this was luck or improved skill in consequence of changing the steering lock value.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg srws1degree.jpg (65.9 KB, 164 views)
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Unread 14 April 13, 21:30   #3
DucFreak
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asloth View Post
<snip>
I can not comment on the SRW-S1 wheel as I never tested it, but I do understand its concept and it is, let's say, unconventional.
By not having experience with such model, I prefer to try "explaining the system" through the following (long!) text, with the more common, conventional steering wheel controllers in context - please keep that in mind.
In anycase, I believe that, even with differences between concepts, the same principles can be applied for your model of wheel controller(?).

--------------------------------------------

For "conventional" wheels, I mean those models which are composed of a steering-wheel and pedals combination, and are "attached" (on table/floor, or sim-cockpit) for you to apply the commands - so, replicating a real car in that sense.
Among these are all the famous models from Logitech, Thrustmater, Fanatec, and other manufacturers for the segment. To be in context, I'll generalize them, doesn't matter the rotation of the wheel, if they have or not a stick shifter, or if they have a clutch pedal or not. You get the point, I'm sure.

So, for all these "conventional wheel controllers", there are settings that are a good basis and (pretty much) perceived as 'universal'.

....something like this:

(click image to enlarge it)


And now to explain these settings, and why are these 'universal'...

--------------------------------------------

So, for SENSITIVITY, all the pedals and steering are at 50% (fifty percent). This value represents it as "fully linear" - what anyone will want it to be.

You should perceive sensitivity here as the speed at which the control traverses from it's "off" position to its "very end". For example, from centre to full lock rotation in a steering-wheel. Another example is the travel of an unpressed to fully pressed pedal.

The "50%" means something like the "zero point" in a chart or imaginary scale (not sure it makes sense), where higher than 50% means positive values (higher sensitivity) and lower than 50% means negative values (lower sensitivity).

In straight simple terms, this means that at 50% it will be "spot on".
The response of the command through a movement that you input on the controller (pedal travel by pressing with foot, wheel rotation with hands, etc) is neither "too responsive, too brisk", nor "too sluggish, too smooth" - it is just as it was pretended to be.

--------------------------------------------

Next, the SPEED SENSITIVE STEERING, which is always set at 0% (zero percent) for steering-wheel controllers.

This setting perhaps can be better perceived if we imagine it as a steering-damper (if you ever saw a motorcycle with one and how that works, you'll imediately understand it).
It's working in a way that it increases the "damping" (effect is increased) the higher the speed.

You'll only want to use this setting, with higher values than 0%, if playing the game with a keyboard or digital (non-analog) gamepad style controllers, to muffle/smoothen the unrealistic button pressing movements in "ON/OFF" style inputs for steering.

--------------------------------------------

Then next, the DEADZONE, which is usually set at 0% (zero percent).

For the steering, there's no question, you do NOT want deadzones in the wheel. I think there's no need to explain why, as it wouldn't make any sense to have such a thing.

Now, for the pedals, some might argue that a little deadzone (very minor, up to 5%??) can help as a workaround for spiking issues with pedals that have dirty pots.
If it's a brand new (and semi-new) or well taken care wheel/pedals controllers, you'll be better off with deadzones at zero anyway, both for the steering and the pedals.

As curiosity, note that for the clutch pedal, the deadzone can be used to get some different sense of "starting point", for when the clutch starts to 'grab', so like an adjuster (better realism, some say).

--------------------------------------------

Finally, some notes on the steering lock.
The real car counterparts replicated in P&G never used anything less than 900 of rotation, some even used more than 1050 of rotation.
If you notice, the lower rotation you use for lock-to-lock on a steering wheel imediately translates (obviously) in less movement, which directly implies a "more nervous" steering, somewhat exaggerated response, to make the wheels turn.
If we use, say, a wheel-controller with 270 rotation (only Go-Karts use such little steering lock), then it becomes too-much/too-short and unrealistically extreme for the purpose of replicating the racecars (modern or classic) and how they can "feel" IRL.

This is overcomed with the mentioned "steering-lock" value in the car setup, by decreasing it immensely for the mentioned "short rotation" steering-wheel controllers (see 1st post), to get a propper equivalent and realistic feel of the steering in those.

--------------------------------------------

Anyway, I believe there are largely more capable, experienced and knowledged people around for this area, who may explain all this much better.
My intention here was for you to understand a little how all this is supposed to work, give you a "base" (hopefully) to explore and fine-tune for your own necessities.

.

Last edited by DucFreak; 7 October 13 at 17:33.
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Unread 14 April 13, 22:48   #4
Josepmaria
 
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Hi everybody

I have a proper wheel with 900 of rotation (DFP) but reading this thread I thot that I should add this information for people with very low steering lock instruments !!! I hope that this can help you ...

Very often I use to drive an old UltraracerPC (with an USB converter), it's a no FFB hand held mini wheel that has only ... 90 of rotation, yes, only 45 to each side !!! It's not a wheel to set world records or win online races with it, but being very small is very good to practice, test cars and learn new circuits and it saves many place in my desk table ... unfortunately in my case the real wheel is only kept for special days !!!
Since many time I had discovered the convenience of reducing "steering-lock" value to something very low, like 8, 10 or 12 degrees, depending on track layout, to compensate the nerviosity (?) of the driving. Also I must use 2-3% in deadzone for each one of the two axes (driving and combined throttle-brake), and with this I could drive but with big difficulties as the wheel was much too responsive ...
Only some days ago I tried for the first time reducing in game the "wheel sensitivity" to 40% ... What a big change !!! Now I can drive with much more confidence, steering became really smooth !!!

Have a look, this video has been recorded using this mini wheel ...

http://www.nogripracing.com/videos/view.php?id=11290 (excuse the poor quality, it's only a test ...)

This works for every game I tried wit this mini wheel !!! Infortunately some sims don't give you the opportunity to change this parameter (NKpro ...)

As your wheels must have more rotation than those poor 90, you'll need to adapt my values to your case but it's the concept what is important here !!!

Good luck !!! (xcuse my post being so long ...)
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Unread 24 April 13, 10:53   #5
hayman3030
 
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hi Duc

thxs for your fine expose about steering locks.
Is there a little difference between GTL and GTR (PnG3) ?

In GTL best results for 180 wheel (I use formula force gp) is 9,5 - 12,5 steering lock.
with 240 wheel (I used momo) is 11,5 - 14,5
In PnG3 I use steering locks between 11,5 - 14,5 with 180 wheel. lower values as you mentioned dont work so fine.
I have the settings in game as you mentioned. And I think, that settings in logitech profiler are 50% for all?
btw: I tried an old wheel, no logitech profiler available for it.
so just calibration with windows. then ingame settings are best 25% for steering, throttle and brake.
are the settings for sensitivity in profiler working in the same manner as ingame? 50% means linear over the entire way? or does it mean: 0% extremly smooth, 100% extremly nervous?

greets hayman
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Unread 24 April 13, 11:18   #6
maeckie
 
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im using 270 wheels eversince (5 years), always going with 0% sensitivity in the game menu.

steering locks started around 7 in my early days, everything else was too twitchy.
improved a lot time when i went to 13 and nowadays i can handle 20 easy and laptimes still improving.

some mods like p&g make me use the max lock without getting twitchy around the centre.

thanx for this article, i think i will try to get my sensititivity up next.
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Unread 24 April 13, 15:18   #7
DucFreak
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hayman3030 View Post
hi Duc

thxs for your fine expose about steering locks.
Is there a little difference between GTL and GTR (PnG3) ?

In GTL best results for 180 wheel (I use formula force gp) is 9,5 - 12,5 steering lock.
with 240 wheel (I used momo) is 11,5 - 14,5
In PnG3 I use steering locks between 11,5 - 14,5 with 180 wheel. lower values as you mentioned dont work so fine.
I have the settings in game as you mentioned. And I think, that settings in logitech profiler are 50% for all?
btw: I tried an old wheel, no logitech profiler available for it.
so just calibration with windows. then ingame settings are best 25% for steering, throttle and brake.
are the settings for sensitivity in profiler working in the same manner as ingame? 50% means linear over the entire way? or does it mean: 0% extremly smooth, 100% extremly nervous?

greets hayman
Hello Hay! ....beware long post ahead....

First, regarding the wheel drivers and settings, I'm not sure if I understand correctly. Are you using Windows generic drivers for your wheel? If so, keep in mind that Logitech only recommends so for devices without FFB. Your wheel has FFB, so you should definitely try to install the Logitech drivers.

And about the Logitech drivers, the Formula Force EX is basically the same wheel as the older Wingman Formula Force GP (same FFB motor and related components AFAIK), so the newer drivers from their website should work the same for both wheels, including the versions for PS2/PS3 consoles of those two wheels (with blue rubber hands grip).
I don't know what Windows OS are you using, but the latest drivers (5.10.127) are available HERE, with versions for different Windows OS's, 32 and 64 bit.
If that still doesn't work, and your OS is Windows XP or Vista, you might wish to try the older 5.02 drivers available from the Wingman website.
And if that still didn't work (lol), then you can try the even older 4.60 drivers (Windows XP 32-bit).

Once installation is done, and in the Logitech Profiler, I would say to try these settings for your wheel.

The sensitivity settings in the Logitech Profiler should always be set at default, with 50% sensitivity meaning full linear response (so, sweet spot, the "perfect setting").
Less than 50% is less sensitive than ideal (more 'numb') and more than 50% is the opposite (more 'twitchy').
And yes, these sensitivity settings also work in the same manner as ingame (which means, should be set at 50%).

(click image to enlarge)



Next, about the steering-lock settings to use in car-setup... I left the values above (in 1st post) as a quick simplification, just to not complicate too much this subject.
I just left what, I believe, are great basis for those using such wheels, always with sensitivity at 50%.

If I wanted to be more profound and go into details, then I would say that, for the default setting of steering-lock in car setup, set for 900 rotation wheels, Power&Glory is using certain steering ratios.
We maintained the steering ratios (not to confuse with steering lock) used by GT-Legends, which uses a value of 13.043 (13:1) for steering ratio on most cars, with just a few cars being exceptions and using a different value for that (I'll go into those in a bit).

"So, how to calculate this then?", you might ask:
Quote:
(A/2)/B = C

A = steering wheel rotation in degrees (on some wheels it's adjustable in the drivers/profiler)
B = steering ratio
C = steering lock in-game you choose in the garage
This means that, if I have a 900 rotation wheel, and I have a 13.043 steering ratio to be applied, this translates into 34.5 steering lock in-game (in car setup), as the following example will show:

(900/2) / 13.043 = 34.5

You can use this same calculation formula, just changing the wheel rotation value of your wheel (180 instead of 900, for instances) to have an idea of what steering lock in car-setup you can use, in-game.

From memory (can't remember if there are more), the only cars that are exceptions and use a different steering ratio in P&G are:
  • Porsche 911 = 15.789 steering ratio (equals to 28.5 steering lock in car setup, for 900 rotation wheels)
  • Abarth TC1000 = 18.000 steering ratio (equals to 25.0 steering lock in car setup, for 900 rotation wheels)
  • Alpine A110 = 16.363 steering ratio (equals to 27.5 steering lock in car setup, for 900 rotation wheels)
  • Austin Healey 3000 = 12.857 steering ratio (equals to 35.0 steering lock in car setup, for 900 rotation wheels)
  • Ford Escort = 11.392 steering ratio (equals to 39.5 steering lock in car setup, for 900 rotation wheels)
  • Mini Cooper = 14.516 steering ratio (equals to 31.0 steering lock in car setup, for 900 rotation wheels)

Some cars won't go below 10.0 steering lock in car-setup (in-game) and as the 180 rotation wheels need to use lower steering-lock than that, in that particular situation you may wish to reduce the steering sensitivity a bit (below 50%) to avoid a too nervous steering.

To end this long boring post, I know that a lot of people test a lot of different things and tricks to fit their own preferences, then have completely different values for sensitivity, steering lock in setup, even deadzones, etc, etc.
Personally, I only recommend what has been set and proven as working for almost anyone (see above) instead of looking for more compromises and workarounds, simply because none provide proof of better concept and, most often (if not always) are not the most realistic and fitting, even provoquing "placebo" results tricking you into thinking that it feels better.
Wether you feel it applies and use it (or not), or change settings here and there to fit best, that's up to you. (freedom of choice!)
.

Last edited by DucFreak; 5 December 13 at 16:47. Reason: added links and image
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Unread 24 April 13, 22:12   #8
hayman3030
 
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hi duc

thxs for your long, not boring post.
dont worry, I use formula force gp with newest logitech driver on win xp.
I was talking about a much older wheel, no logitech drivers available for it, but still good working with windows calibration. I use mental FFB most times (the rest of nearly 2 years keyboard driving)
thxs for steering calculation too.

greets hayman
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Unread 24 April 13, 23:46   #9
kinnunen
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For those who want to drive with the period correct steering ratios - here are some to calculate the PnG steering lock as posted by Luc.
65/66 Mustang, Falcon, GT350 and Cobras/Daytona - 19:1 (i.e. 23.5 PnG steering lock)
67/68 Trans Am Stangs - 16:1
C2 Corvette - 17:1
Cortina - 13.4:1 (GT-Box) or 11.8:1 (High Ratio Box)
Jaguar MkII (maybe E-Type too) - 17.6:1
Ford GT40 MkI - 14:1

That's what I've found so far, more are welcome.

cheers kin
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Unread 4 October 13, 14:04   #10
guily6669
 
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Thanks.

This is probably why I couldn't play P&G mod with my crap Logitech Formula Force EX.

I was always going right, left, right, left... But on GT Legends was pretty smooth
Keep Cool
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