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Unread 22 September 16, 15:56   #1
TheIronWolf
 
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Default BMW CSL, and 70s era racing

Hi,

I am preparing for races this weekend, and I've got couple of questions.

* Does anyone know lock-to-lock degrees for BMW CSL? I thought I'd see them in car specs, but I didn't find that info.

* Was steering lock adjustable on those cars in 70s?

* Did pit stops exist in shorter races during that era (sorry, I am 90s kid )? From other posts, I see that there was no radio comm (something I took for granted ) So, there was no way to request pit? Was it planned ahead of race, and driver had to enter the exactly agreed lap?

* I would appreciate any small details on 70s ETCC/DRM race formats. I found this nice site http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/1972%20ETCC.html , but if anyone has details to share, I am curious. For example, how did 24hrs of Spa look like?

* Can anyone point me to 70s long straight Paul Ricard? I see mentions of GTL converted tracks (and I own GTL) but I couldn't find any.

And, not entirely related: is there any reason my why there's no Mercedes SEL in PnG? I suspect because it didn't fit Gr.2?

Cheers!

Last edited by TheIronWolf; 22 September 16 at 16:15.
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Unread 22 September 16, 22:11   #2
David Wright
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheIronWolf View Post
Hi,

I am preparing for races this weekend, and I've got couple of questions.

* Does anyone know lock-to-lock degrees for BMW CSL? I thought I'd see them in car specs, but I didn't find that info.
We only added it to the specs of the cars changed in 3.2 - not all cars

Quote:
* Was steering lock adjustable on those cars in 70s?
Not sure what you mean. The term steering lock can refer to the steering wheel or the degrees the front wheels turn through.

Quote:
* Did pit stops exist in shorter races during that era (sorry, I am 90s kid )? From other posts, I see that there was no radio comm (something I took for granted ) So, there was no way to request pit? Was it planned ahead of race, and driver had to enter the exactly agreed lap?
There were usually no pitstops in shorter races (1 hour or less).

On longer races, pitstops would normally be planned in advance. Tyres would typically last a 6 hour race and tyre changes were slow if they were required. Fuel was the prime reason for pitstops, and again took some time to fill up. Driver changes often happened during pitstops.

The driver could be signaled to make a pitstop using pitboards. The driver could of course make unscheduled pitstops in case of punctures etc.

Quote:
* I would appreciate any small details on 70s ETCC/DRM race formats. I found this nice site http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/1972%20ETCC.html , but if anyone has details to share, I am curious. For example, how did 24hrs of Spa look like?
The ETCC was essentially an endurance race championship back in those days, so there certainly were pitstops in the ETCC. The races were typically four or six hours long. The DRM and other national touring car championships typically featured shorter races (one hour or less) with no pit stops.

The other feature was the multi-class nature of the racing - cars put into different classes by engine capacity. In the ETCC from 1970-72 there were 3 classes. This was reduced to 2 classes from 1973-75. The DRM only had 2 classes. The ETCC only allowed touring cars to compete. The DRM allowed both GT and touring cars to race directly against each other in the same class.

Sadly there isn't much video of the 73 or 74 ETCC seasons. You can get an impression of what things were like from this video of the 4 hour race at Jarama in 1971

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IJ0qtSktEo

The Spa 24 hour race was part of the ETCC up to 1973. However, unlike most ETCC races, Group 1 (almost standard) cars also raced with the Group 2 cars. While radio communication wasn't in general use during the period, Alpina did use radio in 1973 for their cars during the Spa race.

Quote:
* Can anyone point me to 70s long straight Paul Ricard? I see mentions of GTL converted tracks (and I own GTL) but I couldn't find any.
Its known as Paul Ricard 1975 and its available from pilsbierbude.de. You must register to download.

Quote:
And, not entirely related: is there any reason my why there's no Mercedes SEL in PnG? I suspect because it didn't fit Gr.2?

Cheers!
There is such a huge range of cars to try to cover, we didn't really want to spread ourselves too thin and get into the 50s. In addition the convertible SEL has a rather limited international racing history, so its not like the Jaguar D-Type or Ferrari Testa-Rossa which were very significant in terms of their racing history. Finally, and linked to the previous point, we need photos of the period car as it raced in order to produce it for P&G and photos of SELs in international races back in the 50s are not common.

For pretty much the same reasons the TVR isn't included either. They are (or were) significant in the 2004 FIA Historic Championship, but not significant "back in the day".

Last edited by David Wright; 22 September 16 at 22:38.
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Unread 22 September 16, 23:26   #3
TheIronWolf
 
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Thanks David, very helpful and enjoyable read. Regarding SEL, that's what I suspected as well. I saw it in 1971 ETCC list (6.8L!!!), but other than that it didn't show up in a lot of lists, and it is understandable team invests time where most important.

Regarding steering lock: in my original question I was wondering about degrees wheels turn through, but I am also curious how adjustable those settings were (lock and ratio), or it was fixed at factory?
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Unread 23 September 16, 06:36   #4
David Wright
 
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Sorry I misunderstood your question on the Mercedes. We often get asked why the Mercedes and TVR in GTL are not in P&G. I assumed you were referring to the 300SL.

Concerning the Mercedes saloon raced in 1971 there is no particular reason why it's not in. It would be a great addition. We would need to get permission from the creator of the car. We already have quite a backlog of cars we do have permission for which are not in P&G.
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Unread 23 September 16, 12:09   #5
Geoffers
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Quote:
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We already have quite a backlog of cars we do have permission for which are not in P&G.
Any prospect of any of them being added in a future release David?
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Unread 23 September 16, 18:28   #6
David Wright
 
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Any prospect of any of them being added in a future release David?
One of them should be in the next release
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Unread 23 September 16, 18:42   #7
David Wright
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheIronWolf View Post
Regarding steering lock: in my original question I was wondering about degrees wheels turn through, but I am also curious how adjustable those settings were (lock and ratio), or it was fixed at factory?
The degrees the front wheels turn through would be fixed. The main reason its adjustable in sims is our steering wheels have different amounts of lock. If you have an old wheel with just 270 degrees of lock then using 35 degrees of front wheel lock would result in too sensitive steering.

Finding out the steering wheel lock and front wheel lock of most 70s Group 2 racing saloons is tricky. I don't currently have any data for the CSL.
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Unread 23 September 16, 19:21   #8
TheIronWolf
 
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Thanks for clarification. You answered most of what I was asking, but I am still curious about steering ratio. Do you happen to know if it was possible to adjust steering ratio on those cars? Meaning, making steering more or less sensitive, or was it fixed? If you don't have data on CSL, that's ok, my question is general: was ratio fixed at factory, or mechanics were able to change it?

Interesting to learn you call those cars saloons Also, good to know SEL is on the backlog.

BTW just curious, has your team ever considered port to rF2, and if not why? (Lack of tracks?)

Once again, thanks for PnG. Very interesting and different driving experience.

Last edited by TheIronWolf; 23 September 16 at 20:13.
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Unread 23 September 16, 20:21   #9
David Wright
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheIronWolf View Post
Thanks for clarification. You answered most of what I was asking, but I am still curious about steering ratio. Do you happen to know if it was possible to adjust steering ratio on those cars? Meaning, making steering more or less sensitive, or was it fixed?
The steering ratio would be fixed.

Quote:
BTW just curious, has your team ever considered port to rF2, and if not why? (Lack of tracks?)
The team was and is firmly of the opinion that Simbin/Blimey content shouldn't be ported to a non-Simbin/Blimey platform. We originally received significant support from both Simbin and Blimey in the creation of the mod because of this.

Even if we didn't feel this way, three years ago Simbin stated publicly that although in the past they had tolerated conversions of their content to non-Simbin platforms if they had a "CD check", they would no longer do so.

To be honest, no one in the team is an rF2 fan. For me personally it runs dreadfully on my PC and the FFB on my G25 doesn't feel very good.

And even if we were rF2 fans, were happy to use Simbin content on a non-Simbin platform, and Simbin permitted it, the team is just far too small now to undertake the work to convert so many cars to a new platform.
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Unread 25 September 16, 01:47   #10
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This mod is such an impressive piece of work. I picked 1972 DRM race at Hockenheim 79, and I was able to create race with almost all cars listed in online article, wow!

Regarding my rF2 comment. The reason I brought that up, is that there was an announcement that rF1 tire model will be allowed in rF2. While without new tire model migration is almost useless, graphics and flag rules are more advanced in rF2, and if DX11 promise will come true, there will be real VR support, which GTR2 won't get ever. I thought that moving as rF1 mod (not quite, of course, it is GTR2 mod) will be nice first step, get people interested etc. On the other hand, moving whole PnG to rF2 tire model will be huge effort. Anyway, I now understand where you are standing on this, and Simbin/Blimey interests put pretty much complete block.

I wanted to ask something about 70s touring racing. I had race in rain, and I noticed game assigned intermediate tires. Were soft/hard wet tires even present then? And, did all cars in say, ETCC had to have same tires from same brand?
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Unread 25 September 16, 09:13   #11
David Wright
 
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I picked 1972 DRM race at Hockenheim 79, and I was able to create race with almost all cars listed in online article, wow!
It has long been a goal of mine to create historic championships. I've done a lot of research into the 74 DRM season. All we really need is a 73 model Capri RS2600 and a BMW 2002. One day hopefully

Quote:
Regarding my rF2 comment. The reason I brought that up, is that there was an announcement that rF1 tire model will be allowed in rF2. While without new tire model migration is almost useless, graphics and flag rules are more advanced in rF2, and if DX11 promise will come true, there will be real VR support, which GTR2 won't get ever. I thought that moving as rF1 mod (not quite, of course, it is GTR2 mod) will be nice first step, get people interested etc.
The possible option of rF1 tyres in rF2 is an interesting development, though I suspect its four years too late. In the longer term it would indeed be great to have a more modern platform. The only hope on the horizon IMO is the proposed GT Legends sequel from a new developer, Tiny Feet. We should not only get a new platform but also new models. The models P&G is based on are of course 11 years old. But things have gone very quiet on that front.

Quote:
I had race in rain, and I noticed game assigned intermediate tires.
Just for information, you can turn off automatic tyre assignment in one of the menus.

Quote:
Were soft/hard wet tires even present then?
GTR2 is hard-coded for intermediate, hard wet and soft wet to be present in the tyre files, so we have to have them. Of course we are free to put whatever numbers into those tyres so the hard wet can be exactly the same as the intermediate. There were typically wet and intermediate tyres in this period. For some tyres Aris makes the intermediate and hard wet the same, and and for others the hard and soft wet the same.

Quote:
And, did all cars in say, ETCC had to have same tires from same brand?
No. Tyre choice was free. Dunlop dominated in touring cars supplying both works Fords and works BMWs and also supplied the works Porsche GTs but Goodyear and Firestone were present.
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Unread 26 September 16, 16:17   #12
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David, not car related question - where is PnG music come from? I am enjoying it a lot ) did you GTLW guys play it yourself?
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Unread 26 September 16, 21:21   #13
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Instrumental covers of some classic rock songs, performed by one of the guys in the team (not sure who).
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Unread 26 September 16, 22:12   #14
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sounds like someone has audio engineering skills, because audio does sound like songs from that era, drums particularly Wow!
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Unread 27 September 16, 06:42   #15
aSa
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The credits texts *should* cover pretty much all the help we have received. It's a bit of wall-of-text but here's the performers part:

Quote:
"Purple Haze", "Rock and Roll", "Jumpin' Jack Flash", "Sunshine Of Your Love"
Performed by: Manos Vichos (guitars) - Antonis Stavropoulos (bass and synth) - Fotis Papatheodorou (drums and sound engineer)

"Led"
Performed by: Sancey-Richard Kevin "kevsr25"
For the rest, I don't know for sure, I'm sorry.


cheers.. aSa C[_]


PS. check the MP3 file properties. Most of them mention the artist.
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Unread 27 September 16, 15:05   #16
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Having watched the Donington GT's in the 1970's/1980's whan Steve Soper was racing the Fiat X19 and Minis, I started to follow his career. Obviously I read about his time in the DTM. I haven't heard of the German DRM Championship before so am now reading all about this.
Thank you for mentioning this as the Porsche 935 and Zakspeed Capri have always been favourites.
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