Real Data Cars Beta - UPDATED 20/04/04

[Dan]

ok here it is, its not finished and I'm sure there's still some fine tuning to do especially on spring/damper rates, but it should give you an idea of what to expect from the finished item

the basics :
Edited models by florenzo with correct wheel sizes and track
all cars have kerbweight + 150kg (driver / co-driver + a splash of fuel)
real gear ratios where I could find them (all cars but whether they are all the competition ratios I'm not 100% sure) - but this is only set corrcetly when using the defualt setting in game
Hopefully close to correct power curves for the engine
1.5 downforce setting - down form the 2.5-3 of the original cars, I would use 1.0 but it seems to me the cars jump too far with that setting
revised c of g position, I tried to use real data for the f/r position but the height had to be a guesstimate

please post your feedback here so I can see what you think of it so far

oh yeh, 1 thing I'm pretty sure I will change is the engine in the alpine to the 1800cc spec

[Balue]

First I should say that I installed this mod, then the Tyre mod, then put the FF patch in. I don't know what effect each has on the other so my impressions of your work may be complete bollocks .

Anyway, how can I put it? I'm just having too much fun with RT at the moment .

I drove most of the cars. They all feel better than ever. More in touch with the track surface, a better sensation of mass, if that makes any sense. Started out very cautious, but ended up pushing quite hard. Very good feeling of being able to safely drive up to the limits of each cars ability, and then great fun to drive beyond those limits now and again. Murdered the Mini on Russia2, really thrilling drive.

Quite noticeable differences in the character of a few cars. The Alfa is very engaging to drive now. Always found it completely bland in the past, so that's an excellent result. The Fiat really suprised me. What did you do to it? It's a completely different car. Behaves itself, goes in the right direction, handles the high revs. I sort of miss the old comedy Fiat . The evil Alp' did mostly what I wanted it to as well.

Anway, the feel of driving these cars is extremely good with your work and the Tire Team mod. Can't fault it really, definitely on the right lines. I've sorted out the brakes by making them a bit less sensitive and, er, realising that slowing a Mini from 80mp/h to 10mp/h in 100yards is unlikely to be accomplished under perfect control. The only thing that still bothers me is the behaviour at very low speed. No idea if anything can be done about that, may not even be a problem. Just driving myself insane trying to get through Swiss5 without a scratch . Probably going too fast.

Thanks Ken and Florenzo

[Pero_Grozni]

Firstly BIG THANKS Ken and Florenzo

I just compleated the first test runs.
The conditions:

V1.01 original patch,
TT realmod

Cars used: Stratos, Alpine, Escort, Mini, Alfa, F600, Fulvia, Cortina

Tracks driven: Rogers Finn1, Fin 3, Swe 5, Rus 5, Rus 1.

All of the cars felt great to drive+the tires look great now.
The difference between the cars is very good and i really like the diff. settings.
But i have a few comments on individual cars:
Alpine: As you allready said that you intend to change the engine this wont suprise you. Well i feel that it is not strong enough for the claimed real figures. So i investigated a bit and noticed that you used a much higher engine friction value here than in any other car. I think that if you lower that the alp will come alive again. I would suggest a number lower than the stratos engine friction(15-20% lower).
Escort-again the engine isnt strong enough. And as i was looking at those settings i noticed that the max tourqe was a bit low. For which engine is that(1600 or 2000). Also when comparing the engine friction values i noticed that they are higher than the ones used for the stratos. And considering that the stratos was 6 cylinder it should be just the opposite(inertia too).
Othervise the handling of all cars is great, perhaps only the fulvia is not understeering enough. And the engine settings of the other cars also feel OK. What suprised me is that you used the same max tourqe for the alfa and the escort.

Ok enough for now. Will test some more and report again. And i hope you dont mind that i had a look at the settings-i did that only because i felt that the alp and the escort were not quite strong enough.

Cheers PG

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Pero_Grozni

...So i investigated a bit and noticed that you used a much higher engine friction value here than in any other car...

DOH ! see I knew I'd prolly miss something and there it is.. alpine has that setting from when I was testing some stuff and I forgot to change it back

[LethalOatmeal]

can I just apply Ken's Real settings over top of 1.01 and Team Tires?
do I set everything back to default then start making changes?
Ken did you design your new data for Team Tires or default tires?

Thanks for the work, this should be more fun

[Dan]

Originally Posted by LethalOatmeal

can I just apply Ken's Real settings over top of 1.01 and Team Tires?

that should work ok

Ken did you design your new data for Team Tires or default tires?

tricky question.. its designed to be used with more realistic tires.. whether you use the tire team ones is up to you

[Dan]

updated the first post with v0.91 which has fixed engine friction for the Alpine as pointed out by pero

[Ollo]

Ken and Florenzo - thanks for all your efforts in putting this great patch together!

Some initial times on R1 with default tires and settings (except steering):

Startos: 2.22
Aline: 2.22
Escort: 2.24-2.25
Alfa: 2.25
Kadett: 2.29
Fulvia: 2.23
Fiat: 2.35
Saab: 2.34
Volvo: 2.38
Cortina: 2.27

I very much enjoyed driving these new old cars! First off, Im not used to the 1.0 torque, and some of my impressions may be due to the torque rather than the cars. I experienced some tail waving and had to apply opposite lock on a number of times in the faster cars (this is a good thing! ). I actually managed to get out alive from almost all those situations, which implies the cars behave more predictable. Is the nice sideways action due to the changed mass distribution, or are tires changed somewhat too?

Slower cars were driven pedal to the metal. Im sure some less grippy tyres will make them more challenging.

A few odd things: Cortina is very fast. In fact, I imagine it is about as fast as it would be with the old KK patch and 1.0 torque. Fulvia also appears to be a bit on the fast side. I drove this car on 5th gear once I reached that speed, and never had to gear down. Perhaps this is due to the short gearbox, or else the engine might be a bit overtuned. Or perhaps we should consider Fulvia Class A and Cortina Class B.

Edit: I have to mention the Fiat: what a blast to drive Favourites this far: Fiat, Stratos and Escort

[Ralph_B]

Waited for a long time for news of this, but I have to say, it was worth my impatience!
A really great improvement in comparison to the default physics or your former attempts, Ken. I've tested a several cars at different locations (with the TT_all-in-one-Patch) and it works great. Have to mention the Cortina. After ages of being a nearly idiotproof car it has become something tricky to drive now - fantasic, thats exact what I wanted! But the best improvement is for the Abarth. Allways felt, it was unrealistic before. Had the chance to drive a tuned Fiat 600 a couple of years ago - can't really compare it with the RT-model, because it is too long ago, but out of my memory the present physics comes much closer to the real thing.
Had a test in Kenia3 - whow, it has become a real adventure now!
And it is a nice idea, to correct the optical look of the tires. Even some of the cars don't look such strong like before, a "must have" for pure realism. Unfortunately I will loose the beautyfull working additional beams, that I've installed some times ago. :cry:

Have to agree with the opinions above. I think, the Escort is a little undermotorized. In the 70th it had about 240hp and was nearly as fast as the Stratos. I don't think, they would have had so much success, if it was not much faster than a Kadett, Fulvia or Alfa. And I ask me, if the Fulvia really was that fast in comparison to the other cars, like it was and still is in RT. Don't know that exactly, but can't imagine that.
Nevertheless, great work! Never will use something else - exept a final version perhaps.


Greetings,
Ralph.B (member of TheTireTeam)



EDIT 11.04.04: Deleted the attachment, because a enhanced version including a lot of files for addoncars is out. Please have a look into the TT-realmod! Here you can find this file plus more than 30 addoncar-tirefiles.

[Ralph_B]

Have had a closer look into the ini.files and found some things about aerodynamics, that look a little od for me. You've corrected the aerodynamic drag for most cars and the values are between 0.21 and 0.30 depending on car - exept the Saab, Alfa and Stratos. They have a value of 0.4. Isn't that too high in comparison to the other cars. Expecially for the Stratos I would expect something arround 0.20- 0.22 compared with the Alpine for example.
Would be great, if you could have another look on that.

Cheers,
Ralph.B :wave:

[Dan]

could be because its a BETA.. ie unfinished

[Ralph_B]

Originally Posted by KenKunen

could be because its a BETA.. ie unfinished

Hehehe, thats an argument ! Of course I know, that it's beta and a lot of things will change until a final release. But you wanted feedback - you've got it!
Great work so far! Like it very much, even in that early stage!

Greetings,
Ralph :wave:

[Dan]

BUMP.. v.0.92 is now in the first post - adjusted aero drag for stratos, saab and alfa

[Ralph_B]

Only a suggestion for future developement: Wouldn' it be a good idea, too increase the damage level of the cars? Since now, they are massive like tanks and nearly undestroyable. It would add some more of realism. I myself for now use a value of 0.4; 7.0. Gives much more realistic damage - but better suggestions welcome of course.

Cheers,
Ralph

[John_Schoen]

I have finally installed this patch and the latest Tireteam tires and love the combination. So far I have only driven the Alpine, it drives like I imagine the real thing would. Off now for some quick spins in the Fulvia.

[Ollo]

I'll install the TT patch as soon as I have time to do some driving, and then come back with more thoughts. However, I have no experience of rallying IRL, no experience of any of the specific cars, and limited experience of driving in general ( ), so I doubt my input is worth much. Therefore Id like to hear the opinions of more people on the patch!

Speak up folks!

[Borgen]

Wow! Finally this game starts to feel really good! Now I can actually sweep trough the corners in long nice slides just like in real life!

But there is one thing that really anoys me. I think the rear end comes around way to quick when throwing the car into a junction or sharp turn. 7 out of 10 times i end up doing a 180 facing the wrong way

My opel manta that i rally with IRL is very light in the back and has a tendency to oversteer a bit too much. But its still almost impossible to do a 180 without using the handbrake. If you "throw" the car into a corner IRL using "the scandinavian flick" you wont spin 180 degrees that quick even if you come into the corner with too much speed. You will slide sideways first for a while, having plenty of time to try to correct things. And if you had WAY too much speed coming into the corner, you'll go off the road sideways 9 out of 10 times. How often do you se a rally car crasch with its rear end first?

But thats just a minor fault, the TireTeam and KenKunen has made a fantastic job! keep up the good work guys!

/Borgen
www.teamborgqvist.tk

[Midi]

Borgen, i think that's cause there's too low grip on slow speeds in rt and i heard that it's impossible to fix

[Borgen]

Midi, that sounds like a good explanation. Makes total sence, cause in high speeds the grip seems so realistic now!
Well well, i'll just have to take it a bit more carefull trough the junctions then

[Pero_Grozni]

Yes, most of the problems come from low speed low grip. As mentioned it is very hard to fix.
We have tried a lot numerous version of the tiremodel...
And now we have come very close to the optimum solution for the physics model RT is using.
Still we now have a very good driving model and i dont think that a lot more realism can be gained. Of course we will keep on trying, but i am afraid that if we fix the low speed grip, than we will have far too much high speed grip(acctually i think that allready).
The thing is that the tires dont react to fast changes as they should.
There is so much stuff that the tires model used dosent cover, that i am suprised that we get such good results.
Also there is a lot MOI connected problems that couse the behaivour you mentioned. You probably noticed that the behaviour of the front engined rear driven cars is not very realistic. That comes from the MOI and tire model problems. The closer the weight distribution of the car is to 50/50 % the more realistic the cars feel. That is connected to the game engine and there is nothing we can do about it.
By my oppinion the biggest problem with the RT physics is the reaction of car to middrift liftoff. And i tried a lot to fix it-no succes.
Another big tirerelated problem is tarmac behaviour. It feels OK now if the car dosent have its COG much in front. If the COG is a lot in front and the car is RWD than the tarmac behaviour is dreadfull. It cant be noticed on any original/moded/addon car we have. I only noticed it when i tried a lot of different settings to test/develope the tires.

Cheers PG (member of TheTireTeam)

[Roger]

At last I have driven many of the cars (Tire Team mod etc.) ....generally I like .

The Fiat is now a real little charmer - huge fun, great engine and super neat handling. The Escort is also very good.

The Stratos, felt under-damped, but certainly on the way to being good.

You won't be surprised, but I could not get on with the Alpine at all. Maybe it's because I have been driving my own version too much. What this raises for me is a question about realism.......the Alpine produces some pretty spazzy wheel angles as the suspension moves (front & back) - I have jacked mine and and down in the garage to get a look at what happens (also studied photos and that video Ken uploaded). Also, has no rear ant-roll bar. Also, I have tried to set the suspension heights to look similar to videos of the car in action (low rear end etc.).

I think that these features actually give the Alpine a quite unique feel, in particular the way it slides (and spins! ). As Ken has pointed out the daft wheel angles probably cause the car to behave quite strangley off jumps & bumps - this, I suspect is why he has tuned it as it is (but, I can say - it is damned hard work on a bumpy road IRL).

So, my question - do you set the cars up as closely as you can to data you can get, then fine tune the springs/dampers. Or do you use direct RT driving experience to tune them?


I have attached a replay of my Alp' in action - I just cannot drive as sideways in the new release. Sorry about some of the scruffy driving, but I was having fun! BTW, this is on my version of Fin SS1, so I guess you will need that loaded to see the replay.

Whatever - this mod will certainly get me driving more of the other cars as they have become much more engaging to drive.

Is it not about time soon that we start spreading the word around other forums to see how many people may be attracted by these mods?

[Dan]

As Ken has pointed out the daft wheel angles probably cause the car to behave quite strangley off jumps & bumps - this, I suspect is why he has tuned it as it is (but, I can say - it is damned hard work on a bumpy road IRL).

yeh I'm at a loss what to do with the camber angles for more than 1 reason, firstly because its next to impossible to find real data for this, secondly because using anywhere far from dead vertical gives crazy reactions over jumps and bumps.. BUT this is not so much caused by the camber itself but other things that are going on in the suspension, it just happens that virtually removing wheel camber is the best way of curing it I have found

as for making the existence of this more public, I would rather wait as I know there's a lot more work to be done yet, and I think we've got to the point in RT's life where those who are still interested aren't going to disappear if they have to wait another month or 2, so no rush IMO..

BTW.. you never sent that alpine file I was after.. perhaps you could send me the latest and greatest you have made and I'll see how much I can integrate into the mod

[Roger]

Originally Posted by KenKunen

yeh I'm at a loss what to do with the camber angles for more than 1 reason, firstly because its next to impossible to find real data for this, secondly because using anywhere far from dead vertical gives crazy reactions over jumps and bumps.. BUT this is not so much caused by the camber itself but other things that are going on in the suspension, it just happens that virtually removing wheel camber is the best way of curing it I have found

In real life camber changes will cause the car to be affected by changes in the road surface (camber thrust?) - so maybe BB tried to model this? A practical example is the Alpine (again ) with swing axles and 3deg static camber (on mine) - it gets hold of any road surface variation and follows it, you just have to learn to live with it.

I quite like the idea that you have to plan your RT drive a little more carefully as a result. Ermm, also I don't really notice it - perhaps I'm not going fast enough!

As for guessing the camber curve - I agree it is not an exact science; so without access to each car, it is a fair argument to give sensible numbers to that feature of the physics.

A typical wishbone setup will give negative camber (positive in BB language ) in bump and run towards positive in droop. If the wishbones are short and the car has a lot of droop travel the positive camber will be very pronounced. I suspect that this might actually be helpful to a car as it rolls, keeping the inside wheel at a decent angle to the road. Pity all cars don't have a beam axle - that's easy to figure out

Originally Posted by KenKunen

as for making the existence of this more public, I would rather wait as I know there's a lot more work to be done yet, and I think we've got to the point in RT's life where those who are still interested aren't going to disappear if they have to wait another month or 2, so no rush IMO..

Absolutely

Originally Posted by KenKunen

BTW.. you never sent that alpine file I was after.. perhaps you could send me the latest and greatest you have made and I'll see how much I can integrate into the mod

Of course, I might be the only weirdo that likes it - I will send tonight when I get home. I have given the car quite a strong engine, making max torque lower down (I have been told that the 1800 was very grunty), also my version is heavier - I have allowed for driver and passenger, but having a chat about stage preparation with someone I was told that the under-tray was a massive/heavy construction, so I have slung some extra kilos in.

One thing I have not succeeded in the realism stakes is having a locking diff (works cars used a pawl diff), setting the RT diff to a locker makes the car ridiculously fast and easy to drive under power, so I have fiddled around to make it need more throttle control and to have some "lift-off" throttle steer.

[Midi]

I have driven with TT all in one patch.

I think this is that realistic what is possible in rt It's a shame that rt doesn't model the clutch, it would be good if you have to go off from gas when changing gears.

I drove:
With Cortina Russia Stage 2 and Finland Stage 4. With Kadett Finland Stage 5. With Alpine Kenya 1.

These all was great to drive and those tweaked car models(expectially alpine ) are great

I think original rt physics are funny and great to drive and then this is whole new game

Very great job TireTeam, Kenkunen and Florenzo

Now i'm going to install Porsche :arrow:

[Ollo]

Hm, I cant get the corrected TT file to download for some reason.

[Pero_Grozni]

Worked for me. Here try it with this post.

EDIT: removed the attachement-a bit of adjustments to them coming tommorow.

[Ollo]

Got it - thanks!

[CDK]

As the wheel moves up and down the camber change that is incountered is often refered to as bump steer. In circle track racing great effort is put into building and adjusting the front suspension so that there is as little bump steer as possiable. Having worked for many years with both real and virtual circle track suspension tuning I am finding a new challenge in road race work. All the tech theorys are the same you just have to try and find a set up that works leaning both ways. With camber you are simply trying to achieve as much tire patch contact as you can as the car A arms go up and down and the body rolls side to side

CDK

[Roger]

Bump steer is also caused by the geometric difference between the arc of the suspension movement and the arc of the steering arms. Depending on the design of the car, carefull attention to the height of the rack relative to the track rod ends can cure this. I suspect that we don't have this effect in RT at all.

Any steering we get over bumps will be camber thrust.

BTW - Sorry Ken, I did not send the file last as we had connection probs' at home.

[Dan]

As the wheel moves up and down the camber change that is incountered is often refered to as bump steer.

Wrong

Bump steer is caused by the geometric difference between the arc of the suspension movement and the arc of the steering arms.

Correct

but, this is not really relevant as there aren't seperate suspension and steering arms modelled in the game engine so I doubt the game will have bumpsteer

Roger, dont worry, I might not have time to do much with it for a day or so anyway but if you could send it soon I would appreciate it

[Roger]

Yer tis........

[Dan]

thanks

[CDK]

Roger and Ken,
My apologies I was way off on my terms and mismatched my explanations. I have been working with the camber angles and the changes they make thru compression and extension and was trying to add some input. This is a very complicated subject and alot has changed thought wise with the use of suspension modeling programs. What I find interesting is that almost any change in one area effects another there also seems to be 10 ways to achieve the same thing. IE. soft springs \big bars --- heavy springs\small bars. Add to that a good driver adapts to the car and it is hard to pin down a good set up.
There does not seem to be any way to adjust for bump steer in RT. Lets see if I can blow this one, but there are adjustments for Akerman.
Well back to the books, trying to come up with good info for future use.
CDK

[Roger]

I'm surprised about your comments re: bars/springs/drivers. I would sack your driver first a good test driver should be able to drive the car in such a way as to identify it's handling traits in a consistent manner - go and see if Alain Prost is available for this job!

Bars/springs - are you working on single seaters with downforce? Maybe if a car is running on slicks which like to be loaded by stiff bars to get them working I can see how you might get similar results.

Is the chassis rigid enough?

The biggest difference between bars and springs must surely be in longtidudinal weight transfer - so a softer spring could help traction (braking or acceleration), whereas the bar is not doing anything at this point.

I am sure you know that if you stiffen a car with springs you hardly impact the dynamic weight transfer at all, the static weight distribution will be affected by how much load each wheel carries. You do, of course affect how much the car rolls with springs. But if you add an anti-roll bar you DO affect dynamic weight transfer because the bar transfers weight from one wheel to the other.

Or, are you getting confusing results because the stiff bars or stiff springs are all working because they are keeping the wheel in the same part of it's camber curve?

[CDK]

Roger,
A good test drivers job is to run consistent laps for data collection. A good drivers job is to take what ever he is given and take it to the front. Most drivers complain the car is cra# if is not set up to there style.The guys who are really good get in any thing and adapt and go.
Most of my comments are coming from U.S. racing, translation big heavy cars on pavement (Tarmac) oval tracks. Also big HP in light cars on dirt ovals. The way the cars are set up are often very different(between pavement and dirt) what works in one will sometimes cause the opposite effect in the other.
A few years back the pavement cars never even used bars, big springs were the call of the day. Front bars were introduced and slowly became common place but remained small(diameter) later rear bars started to pop up. Then the springs got softer and the bars bigger, give it a couple of years and it will go back the other way. Spring rate and weight transfer is a big topic but with modeling programs the new fad is called the moment center, a ever elusive point that moves around basicly as the car moves. What is interesting is in RT the MOI and COM sorta of compare to the moment center,I am still reading and trying to digest and put into practical use the moment center ideas and how I can translate them to the RT parameters, there are a lot of similarities and the things we can work with in the RT modeling seem to be very advanced in there own right. The things used to get the cars to work in a 3D virtual world cross over to the real one.
For all the changes that occur and somtimes come back to things used years ago the overall times seen on courses has not changed that much and a lot of the times it can be traced to the tires, soft sticky tires make good lap times.Well that should get me in enough trouble for today.

CDK
PS. Thanks for making me think and look things up if I just throw things out and nobody says anything I will think its right and not learn anything new.

[Roger]

I think the problem you will get with RT (I am not totally sure about this, but have done some visual experiments) is that the roll axis is level with the wheel centres and cannot be adjusted. So, in that respect it is probably not going to be quite as elusive as in real life. Although I am sure that RT cars rotate around their CofG (is that your COM?), when you watch a replay you can see that they interact with the tyres dynamically so appear to rotate from all sorts of positions (which is quite cunning!)

I would be interested to know what you make of my Physics Calculator as I have been trying to understand this stuff too (although I'm an amateur at this!).

[Pero_Grozni]

Just wanted to pop by and give some comments on Rogers alpine version.
For me it is curently the best set up car in RT. Almost all of the characteristic you can expect from an rear engined low weight car show up in his version. The understeer and oversteer transition is just briliant and understeer can be fixed with the handbrake(like i do it in real life from time to time). The oversteer characteristic are great too. It allows a lot of oversteer and if you overdo it it spins like it should.
And i didnt notice anything strange from the radical camber values he used. Acctually i found that his alp was quite stable after jumps and over bumps. It did show a litle nervusenes when at high speed, but i guess that with such a configuration the real alp used(the rear axis and the weigth distribution) it had to be nervus at high speeds too, so that is also very good.

BTW: TTrealmod used on testing
And dont get me wrong-i think Kens version is great too. It is just that Rogers feels a bit better for a rearengined light car.

Cheers PG

[Roger]

Thanks for the kind words PG

Not only tested, but also developed on the TT mod (latest corrected tyres after Ken released his Beta). It is worth saying that simply changing the tyres to your latest type utterly transformed the car

I have no idea how it runs on original tyres and 1.3 torque - it could be utterly horrible.

[Ralph_B]

Sorry to interrupt the interesting discussion. But beeing on topic "TT_tires" - just wanted to mention, that we (TheTireTeam) have uploaded a slightly modified evolution of our tire.ini's for the FTC-cars on page1 of this thread. We have corrected the sometimes very different performance of some cars. So for one example the grip of the Escort was extreme low in comparison to other cars.
So if you have installed an older version (before March 10th), please update.

Greetings,
Ralph.B (member of TheTireTeam) :wave:

[CDK]

Caught the lip and vered off a bit there and on a subject that is volumous.For those interested scan for upcoming New Topic as Roger and I and anyone else interested may explore more into the mysterys of handeling and my poor spelling.
CDK

[JuanManuel]

hello, this is my very first post.

i always come to no-grip to d/l some RT stuff like physics, new cars or some misc stuff to make this game a little more realistic. I saw the new in racesimcentral.com, so i d/l the all in one patch and the new updates in this thread. Now i can say:

THIS THING IS FAAAAANTASTIC!!!!!!! :OMG:

i dont know the exact words, but i guess is understeer, i can take the turns and control the car in the way i like. it´s great, thanks for your work (and it´s only a beta!! :OMG: )

cheers.

[Dan]

I split the topic, the rest of the discussion of editing the physics can be found here

feedback on this beta set of cars should be posted in this thread still, thanks

[R-Rosengren]

i dont think the real mod is too hard to drive with :p but never tested the all in one mod, cos the installer never responds..

[Ralph_B]

After a longer period of testing we (TheTireTeam) found some better values for the tires, if you want to use Ken's cars together with the TT-realmod. So we have uploaded a new, slightly modified version for the "corrected_TT-mod Tires" on page1 of this thread (it is the same file as in the TT-realmod Tread). So feel free to check them out and replace your current version.

Greetings,
Ralph.B (member of TheTireTeam) :wave:

[GregoryB]

Thank you Ken and the Tire Team for all your dedicated work on the new patches. Having just tried Colin McRae Rally 2 demo I’m grateful for anything I can get.

I like the new patches (I installed all three together to be eligible for weekly competition, so I’m not sure which is affecting what) but I wonder if RT cars are now getting harder to drive than real cars, the level of grip seems even lower than in real life. Though as they trundle along on the replays they look very realistic.

They’re great on tarmac and snow but on gravel, especially when it’s bumpy, they feel too floaty and bouncy imo. On Russia 5 and Finland 3 they not only feel floaty… :OMG: see attachment.

Not sure what’s happened to the brakes. They’re much weaker now, which is very good, but I can’t do left foot braking for hairpins in FWD cars anymore. Handbrake’s fine though.

Now can anyone tell me how to uninstall the All In One patches and the Realdata patch separately or altogether :confused: so I can compare and also go back to original settings for this weeks comp.

[Dan]

Gregory, the easiest way to restore that many things to default is to copy everything in the rally trophy/data/ folder from the cd to the same place in your game install folder

[Ralph_B]

They’re great on tarmac and snow but on gravel, especially when it’s bumpy, they feel too floaty and bouncy imo. On Russia 5 and Finland 3 they not only feel floaty… see attachment.

Looking to your screenshot, it doesn't make me wonder, the tires are FEELING floaty - the car IS floating! But away from joking - I don't know, whats going on here, but this cannot be the result of our tire-settings. We only changed the physical behavior like grip, stiffness or whatever you want, but not the appearance of the tires or car. The optical "floating" of the car must be a matter of the 3d-model, I think. I once noticed just the opposit with Daves Skoda or a little less with Richards Peugeot 404 - they seem to have a flat or sinking into the ground a little bit.
Does this happen only with the Healey or have you noticed this with all cars? I could imagine that effect by the FTC-cars as a possible sideeffect of the change in the 3d-Models tirewidth, but don't really think, that this is the reason. And for addoncars there isn't changed anything - so it is theoretical impossible, that this is effected by the real-mods.

The less effective brakes can be caused by Kens and Florenzo's mod. But I think, that is more a improvement than a disadvantage - the brakes of the original cars have been to agressive and you only had the possibility of no braking or blocking the wheels completely. For leftfoot-tailbraking for FWD cars you may be right, but have you tried to change the brake-bias to the rear-axle in the tuning-menue? This may be a solution.
And when speaking of tuning, have you tried a softer suspension setting, when you feel, the cars a bouncing on gravel?
Don't want to neglect, that there may be some problems with the realmods, but often the problems are caused by a wrong car-settup and not fault of the mods. I myself haven't expierienced this things so far, but maybe I've been to much involved in the edits and used to the realdata cars and tires, so that I am not objective anymore.

Greetings,
Ralph.B

[GregoryB]

The cars have now settled down and are visually back on the road.
Ralph, I'll get back to you and your comments soon but ATM I have a slightly more urgent problem.
Ken, I copied the Data folder from the CD into the RT folder and now I can’t start RT :cry: – I get an error message “File error: Missing variable’Languageld01’ data/language/language ini.”
So I tried copying the Language.bzf again but that didn’t help.
BTW I did made a back-up of the Data folder before I tried this.

[Dan]

ahh my mistake.. the 1.01 patch replaces these files in the data folder so you need them from the 1.01 patch not the cd.. hence your error

language.bzf
extras.bzf
settings/input.ini
global/fonts.bzf

[GregoryB]

Phew – that’s a relief. All working again before RTWS set in (Rally Trophy Withdrawal Symptoms), thanks Ken.
I didn’t copy the settings/input ini. as I have some personal settings there that suit my wheel and style of driving.
Then I re-installed Ken’s RT Cars Final rtp.
Last (the order is important) I re-installed some of those mouth-watering add-on cars in my downloads folder.
I think everything’s back to where it was before and there sure is a big difference between the old physics versus the three patches. I like the feel of more contact with the ground and that you can hang the back-end out without the car spinning at the slightest provocation with the old physics.
I like the much more realistic speeds the cars travel at and the weaker brakes with the new. Yes Ralph, I could set the suspension softer to reduce the bounciness, but I’d never be able to keep up with all you hotshots if I did.