SHIFT will NOT have tire wear or pit stops or weather

[gears]

If any of you still had hope that it would be a "sim", it's not.

No tire wear or pit stops or weather.

Will tire wear play a part during races? Will Tire wear be present in "Pro mode" and will it be real time tire wear, accelerated tire wear, or a fixed tire wear per track? Will we be able to feel the difference from cold tires and warm tires? Worn tire from new tire?

IB: Tire wear is not included in Need for Speed SHIFT.

Is there an option to get into the pits, because the tires are gone and the fuel is empty?

IB: There will be no pit support.

Is there a changing weather and day/night feature at real time in the game?

IB: We felt we could offer a more tailored and polished experience by keeping with preset weather and times of day for different track layouts. With dynamic weather and time there are always visual compromises that we didn't want to make, instead choosing to concentrate on really beautifying our selections. While the engine is capable of racing in the rain, feedback shows a tiny percentage of players ever actually do it.

http://www.drivingitalia.net/articol...software&id=93

[audir8fan]

rfactor has no rain. Hopefully the damage model won't be as "enthusiastic" as GRiD's

[Dzul]

Originally Posted by gears

IB: We felt we could offer a more tailored and polished experience by keeping with preset weather and times of day for different track layouts. With dynamic weather and time there are always visual compromises that we didn't want to make, instead choosing to concentrate on really beautifying our selections. While the engine is capable of racing in the rain, feedback shows a tiny percentage of players ever actually do it.

http://www.drivingitalia.net/articol...software&id=93

That's a lot of words for "we really couldn't be bothered about it"

[David Wright]

iRacing is perhaps the most hardcore of sims and when launched didn't have pitstops or weather and featured grids of 12. The omission of tyre wear is surprising, but hardly defines what is a sim. GPL didn't have tyre wear and am I right in thinking RBR didn't include tyre wear?

[-=Prodrive=-]

uh oh.

[trotter2k]

I was looking forward to this game as it looks good but with none of the above it proves once and for all EA sucks...lol

[boyracer5500]

the people at EA are making the game shit! WTF no weather or pits.

[-=Prodrive=-]

16 players max?

Please tell me there will be a server side option to increase that?

[David Wright]

Originally Posted by -=Prodrive=-

16 players max?

Please tell me there will be a server side option to increase that?

My interpretation of the interview is that all servers are run by EA. Presumably the idea is that console racers can race against PC racers on-line. The game clearly isn't designed for leagues and TBH 16 people is enough for your average pickup race - they don't improve with larger grids in my experience.

[kopyville]

what did I say in the begining? remove the F in Shift... need for speed s...

[Sitbon]

Originally Posted by gears

If any of you still had hope that it would be a "sim", it's not.

This is really starting to annoy me.

Did you even read the interview? It quite clearly says the physics are extremely advanced. Why would you not classify it as a sim if it features so many detailed physics, such as tire deformation and Lord knows what else?

It seems that, as soon as people get disappointed by this game, they called it an arcade game, which is really quite extraordinarly stupid. Not having pit stops doesn't make the physics any less detailed.

It seems quite clear now that no matter what, people will just keep out spouting complete nonsense, and only the upcoming demo will silence all the naysayers.

Can't wait for the demo.

[moppenheimer]

Originally Posted by Sitbon

This is really starting to annoy me.

Did you even read the interview? It quite clearly says the physics are extremely advanced. Why would you not classify it as a sim if it features so many detailed physics, such as tire deformation and Lord knows what else?

It seems that, as soon as people get disappointed by this game, they called it an arcade game, which is really quite extraordinarly stupid. Not having pit stops doesn't make the physics any less detailed.

It seems quite clear now that no matter what, people will just keep out spouting complete nonsense, and only the upcoming demo will silence all the naysayers.

Can't wait for the demo.

did you read the op, cant call it a sim, just because you have to brake, each time we find out something about the game it seems more and more like a slightly difficult version of grid... ea kills every racing game they touch

[-=Prodrive=-]

My interest in this game is waning with every bit of "news" I read.

[nigelfortune]

Originally Posted by moppenheimer

did you read the op, cant call it a sim, just because you have to brake, each time we find out something about the game it seems more and more like a slightly difficult version of grid... ea kills every racing game they touch

Haha EAsport is like Demesdos "it kills all known germs (games) dead"

[David Wright]

Originally Posted by -=Prodrive=-

My interest in this game is waning with every bit of "news" I read.

Its the opposite for me

I suppose it depends on your initial expectations and your priorities in a racing sim.

My initial expectations were low - the demo for the last NFS was dreadful. I was never expecting GTR3 - just hoping for GRID with (much) better physics.

My priorities in a racing sim are good physics, good AI, good graphics, and good sound. My typical races are 30-45 minutes long and don't involve pitstops. I do sometimes race online but never in a league. I enjoy mods, but they are not essential, especially if a game comes with a lot of content.

For me, accurate track bumps is a key part of the next step in racing sims. I did think these would remain an iRacing exclusive as I didn't think "mainstream" titles would go to the trouble and expense of getting this data. But the interview with Ian gave me hope that we might get "real bumps" in a £25 mainstream title rather than having to pay $20 for each track and a similar amount for the privilege of using it each month.

[-=Prodrive=-]

But 16 player max, no tyre wear...

Surely something like tyre wear is a fundamental part of racing? How can such a "advanced" physics engine be not calculating tyre wear? I don't understand that decision.

And the 16 player limit is just stupid. If the netcode is great, which he claims it is, why not 30 players, or 40?

[xanaxkamikaze]

Big surprise.... not!

[Sitbon]

Originally Posted by -=Prodrive=-

But 16 player max, no tyre wear...

Surely something like tyre wear is a fundamental part of racing? How can such a "advanced" physics engine be not calculating tyre wear? I don't understand that decision.

And the 16 player limit is just stupid. If the netcode is great, which he claims it is, why not 30 players, or 40?

It's not a matter of netcode, but graphics and memory. 16 players max is both offline and online.

[Mogget]

My interpretation of the interview is that all servers are run by EA

My interpretation of the interview is that Need for Speed : Shift will be shit

And the 16 player limit is just stupid. If the netcode is great, which he claims it is, why not 30 players, or 40?

My interpretation of the limit is that even a 5Ghz liquid nitrogen cooled Core 2 Quad would struggle to cope with more than 16 cars on screen with graphics as glossy as that.

[DoMw94]

i said all along this would be crap!

[Mogget]

Give that man a medal

[zud the spud]

It's competing with Race Driver GRID and that didn't have tyre wear weather or pit stops. It's still way too early to judge anything about this game, for my opinion wait until the demo is released.

[Mogget]

Why call it a sim if it's competing with Race Driver GRID?

[David Wright]

Originally Posted by Sitbon

It's not a matter of netcode, but graphics and memory. 16 players max is both offline and online.

You also have to remember this is primarily a console title, just like previous NFS titles and just like Codies titles have been since the original TOCA.

The benefits of cross-platform titles is we get a lot of cars and tracks for our money. The downside is it will not support large grids of cars. The PC version of Race Driver 3 for example was limited to 12 players online.

[freejrs]

Originally Posted by DoMw94

i said all along this would be crap!

Originally Posted by Mogget

Give that man a medal

Im probably just a little high but lmao!!

[gears]

Originally Posted by Sitbon

This is really starting to annoy me.

Did you even read the interview? It quite clearly says the physics are extremely advanced. Why would you not classify it as a sim if it features so many detailed physics, such as tire deformation and Lord knows what else?

It seems that, as soon as people get disappointed by this game, they called it an arcade game, which is really quite extraordinarly stupid. Not having pit stops doesn't make the physics any less detailed.

Having a few "sim features" does not make it a Sim

The most advanced physics engine in the world means absolutely nothing without tire wear.

I mean really.....

No weather? Fair enough. rFactor does not have weather.

No pitstops? Ummmmm.....errrrrr......ok.......

No tire wear?????!!!!!!!!!


I have no doubt it will be fun and look and drive great.

But it's a "racing game" with a few "sim features".

Why can't they just call it what it is?

[RacingManiac]

Originally Posted by -=Prodrive=-

But 16 player max, no tyre wear...

Surely something like tyre wear is a fundamental part of racing? How can such a "advanced" physics engine be not calculating tyre wear? I don't understand that decision.

And the 16 player limit is just stupid. If the netcode is great, which he claims it is, why not 30 players, or 40?

not sure how accurate the tirewear in a given sim right now is....or where do they get their data from...tire data on its performance is relatively easy(I say relatively because its actually a very expensive test, but its being done everyday) to get, but accurate wear performance can depend on so many factors that to properly define it and model it in game will be difficult.

[David Wright]

Good point RacingManiac.

While I'm sure we are all puzzled at the omission of tyre wear, some do seem to be saying they'd rather drive an old "sim" with inferior physics with tyre wear than drive Shift with better physics but no tyre wear. I really don't follow the logic

Let's face it, although it does seem that you can do a 20 lap race at the Ring - most Shift users including myself will be doing 30-45 minute races when tyre wear isn't much of an issue.

[-=Prodrive=-]

Originally Posted by Sitbon

It's not a matter of netcode, but graphics and memory. 16 players max is both offline and online.

What ever happened to designing a game for the future?

Since when did developers start creating games simply for current hardware? If you cant run with 50 cars etc, then lower the detail levels.

I dont buy the idea that its graphics and ram limited, more like the console version only supports 16 players, therefore the PC version does too, and they simply haven't been bothered to adjust that aspect taking into account the PC's extra abilities.

[gears]

Originally Posted by David Wright

While I'm sure we are all puzzled at the omission of tyre wear, some do seem to be saying they'd rather drive an old "sim" with inferior physics with tyre wear than drive Shift with better physics but no tyre wear. I really don't follow the logic

Well that's really not the point of my thread. (I will mostly likely buy SHIFT because it looks like it will be fun as hell )

The point is that they've been saying it will have a "full sim mode".

I didn't believe it then, and all evidence so far indicates it won't be "full" or "sim" (difficult AI doesn't make it a "sim" either)

I highly doubt there will even be practice or qualifying rounds (a la Grid), but I could be wrong.

[DucFreak]

Originally Posted by -=Prodrive=-

What ever happened to designing a game for the future?

Since when did developers start creating games simply for current hardware? If you cant run with 50 cars etc, then lower the detail levels.

I dont buy the idea that its graphics and ram limited, more like the console version only supports 16 players, therefore the PC version does too, and they simply haven't been bothered to adjust that aspect taking into account the PC's extra abilities.

IMHO the 16 players probably was a compromise taken by either the devs or the publisher (may both), so that it was played with no worries in most (average) computers, and especially on the consoles (PS3 and XboX360).
The fact that fluid 60fps gaming in consoles is now used as marketing, makes companies admit compromises.
The PC version will probably suffer from this, as I can not believe SHIFT will be a totally separate development from the console versions, maybe not even a more evolved one from those (I do hope I'm wrong in this though).

While I agree with David, that no tyre-wear features won't harm racing in short stints (no aparent downsides), in the end I too am extremely disapointed about not having any sign or hint of tyre-wear features in this title (and what about tyre-temps???), when even console games in the jurassic Sega Saturn or Playstation PS-One had this, with tenths of (lower) gaming power at disposal, so certainly it can only be pure marketing choice.

...my biggest concern now, after these "bomb news" for the most "die-hard" simracers, is what kind of shortcuts (marketing crapp) have also affected the other things that we don't know yet... tyre and engine temps, brake temps, fuel wear and its weight, damage in physics (not just visually), setups, etc, all the huge ammount of things that this can be related with.
...and we're not even including yet the adjustment features to drive with no aids with a higher-end wheel like G25 / Fanatec (if these exhist).

It may feel nice, but... what about the strategical part of racing?

I don't want to be around ISI game-engine too much longer, I love nKPro but it's limited on too many aspects at this point, iRacing is a no-no for me (no need to comment, everything already said on other threads), latest SimBin products are just more of the same with no real appealing content to me to justify any "dedication" over what I have now.
...I've been looking at SHIFT as a nice alternative for my PC racing needs, but I'm not sure what to expect now?

"wait and see then", I say everytime... and we'll all see then, I guess.

BTW, speaking of alternatives, I hope I'm wrong with this one but slowly I start to agree with the other guys lusting over the upcoming GT5 on PS3... I tested the current GT5-Prologue and it was way better than I ever expected.

[AeroMechanical]

I'm sure that the SMS guys are doing their damnedest to fight for as much realism as they can. They're into that as much as we are. Of course, they're probably into making money and feeding their families and such as much as we are too.

I'm sure the engine itself supports tire wear... who knows, maybe there will be some sneaky variables hiding in a configuration file somewhere. Consoles don't have text editors.

[MaddmattH]

Oh man, I've been so looking forward to this game. This just disappoints me

They have said in interviews before that the focus is on WTCC-style races, so short sprint races. Remember Race 07 didn't have proper pit-stop support until a patch that added endurance racing to it.

The omission of tyre wear sucks, but on the other hand it's not a huge factor in short races is it? Never seemed to be much of an issue in the WTCC races I did in Race 07. Although it did seem to come into pay a bit at the end of the race.

The most important thing is the actual physics, and how the cars handle. I hope they get this right, they do have the people for it.

Face it, the old ISI physics engine is far from perfect.
But really, the same team worked on GTR2. The car handling there was off, odd aero and weird tyre physics under breaking. But it was still considered an excellent sim

It could still be a good sim for sprint races.

things like tire deformation based on g-forces, tire pressures, rubber thickness, which only the most diehard sim fans will notice, but we know it's there.

Can't ignore the good points

[Sitbon]

Originally Posted by -=Prodrive=-

What ever happened to designing a game for the future?

Are you kidding? The graphics in Shift are simply ludicrous. It's what I call truly next-gen.

[redi]

Originally Posted by MaddmattH

Oh man, I've been so looking forward to this game. This just disappoints me

They have said in interviews before that the focus is on WTCC-style races, so short sprint races. Remember Race 07 didn't have proper pit-stop support until a patch that added endurance racing to it.

The omission of tyre wear sucks, but on the other hand it's not a huge factor in short races is it? Never seemed to be much of an issue in the WTCC races I did in Race 07. Although it did seem to come into pay a bit at the end of the race.

The most important thing is the actual physics, and how the cars handle. I hope they get this right, they do have the people for it.

Face it, the old ISI physics engine is far from perfect.
But really, the same team worked on GTR2. The car handling there was off, odd aero and weird tyre physics under breaking. But it was still considered an excellent sim

It could still be a good sim for sprint races.


Can't ignore the good points

+1

As if the current race sims (GTR2, GT Legends, GTRe, rFactor) are perfect by including everything. GTR2's cars are difficult to handle, and people mistake that for realism. I still hate how cars in GTR2 and GTL spin/slide when going 10 kph, how can you call that realism?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to this one, perhaps in a later patch they'll add an option for enabling tire wear

Personlly I think that all the people boo-ing at NFS:Shift are people expecting any new race sim to be GTR3 and if it's not then it's bad And shouting that the sim sucks before having driven a single lap in it is just... stark raving mad.

[Raikku]

Oh no!

[Sidewinder16]

The removal of tyre wear, weather, etc etc will not be an issue if the game manages to entertain people. Sure it may not be realistic but that will not matter to the end user if he/she finds the game entertaining and a joy to play.

[Raikku]

If it just be better than Grid etc.

I drove Grid after long break(PS3 version+G25), and what horrible experience it was!

[Sitbon]

Originally Posted by redi

Anyway, I'm looking forward to this one, perhaps in a later patch they'll add an option for enabling tire wear

There will be a lot of post-launch development.

I think tire wear is important, but tire temperature is much more important. If it doesn't take that into account, it would be a huge shame.

Everything seems to be indicating that tire temperature does seem to be taken into account. If you check out this video http://pc.ign.com/dor/objects/143191...shift_pt1.html you can see a lot of numbers on the cockpit display, including temperature in celcius. Just one temperature, though.

[hoboholic]

I'm gonna defend these guys for a second...

1. If feedback shows that most people aren't going to use it (which is shown in the amount of people using rfactor alone) then why spend time coding that when you can put that time towards something else?

2. Pitstops aren't a necessity people, alot of people like really short races, 5-20 laps. Meaning no pitstops is necessery anyway. Plus, most motorsport series don't even HAVE pitstops. Does this make the racing any less exciting?

3. Tire wear? Not needed, just go race...

My point is....If it handles well and looks great. Then who are we to complain?
Especially if we haven't even paid for it yet. I mean, sure...If I buy it and it sucks then sure, I'd be asking for my money back. But theres no sense in outkasting it just because it isn't GTR2.

Pessimism is FAR to large in this day and age...what ever happend to Optomism?
Who knows, maybe I'm just so young that I still remember how to enjoy a good game

[Sitbon]

Originally Posted by hoboholic

what ever happend to Optomism?

It was replaced with Optimism.

Originally Posted by hoboholic

3. Tire wear? Not needed, just go race...

Oh come on, man. What's the point of having 33 different types of tires if there's no tire wear? There will be no trade-offs, slick tires will always own.

[pitradio]

Originally Posted by Sitbon

It was replaced with Optimism.


Oh come on, man. What's the point of having 33 different types of tires if there's no tire wear? There will be no trade-offs, slick tires will always own.

Oh? And if it's hot? So that soft slick tyres have less grip because they're too hot?

[Sitbon]

Originally Posted by pitradio

Oh? And if it's hot? So that soft slick tyres have less grip because they're too hot?

Well, I'm not sure.. I don't know everything about tires yet. All I know is that soft slicks don't last very long and that is something you have to take into account when you choose tires. If tires don't wear out, things change. Everything should be as realistic as possible, IMO.

[Mogget]

I don't want to be around ISI game-engine too much longer

...and yet Power & Glory 2 uses an ISI engine

[motorro]

Originally Posted by hoboholic

My point is....If it handles well and looks great. Then who are we to complain?
Especially if we haven't even paid for it yet.

We are the racing-sim-community, we live on complaint, we complain faster than we go around the track, we complain louder than a 70's Can-Am, we even have a "base-complaint" that works for most games/sims/mods

[DrugsDen]

Pit stops and Tire wear are a BIG part of sim racing how can you do 3 hour races without tire wear and pit stops? is the hole car a fuel tank cos the car is not going to do to many laps without a pit stop is it!
EA= kids games they can stick shift TBH its just old hat with new gfx POOR

[trotter2k]

ill go buy it for the way it looks and all but only on the PS3, kind of funny how GT4 has Tire Wear/Pit Stops and could be classed as a Sim but ill stick to True Sims on the PC

[hoboholic]

Originally Posted by Sitbon

It was replaced with Optimism.


Oh come on, man. What's the point of having 33 different types of tires if there's no tire wear? There will be no trade-offs, slick tires will always own.

Because different tyre manufactures will have different handling tyres... Bridgstones will be different to Dunlop...

Originally Posted by motorro

We are the racing-sim-community, we live on complaint, we complain faster than we go around the track, we complain louder than a 70's Can-Am, we even have a "base-complaint" that works for most games/sims/mods

Good call...

Originally Posted by DrugsDen

Pit stops and Tire wear are a BIG part of sim racing how can you do 3 hour races without tire wear and pit stops? is the hole car a fuel tank cos the car is not going to do to many laps without a pit stop is it!
EA= kids games they can stick shift TBH its just old hat with new gfx POOR

Since when did endurance racing because the MAJOR part in sim racing?
Sim racing is about REALISM IN RACING.
WTCC don't have pitstops...quess it's not realistic...
Formula Ford don't have pitstops....not realistic?
MotoGP?....I rest my case.

Comment back when you realise that there are actually shorter races in existance...

[trotter2k]

Ive just seen the Trailer for GT5 take a look at this guys )
http://www.granturismoworld.com/en/g...iler/index.htm

[hoboholic]

Yeah, GT5 looks completely awesome... Perfect graphics. The best looking racing game ever, and I doubt that many people will deny that.