When to use clutch, heel-toe, d-clutch?

Sitbon · 15 July 09, 19:11

Hi.

So I'm actually still playing GT Legends and eventually I step things up and move to GTR2 (been playing both for years but only very recently with a wheel). I do have a few questions that I can't seem to find an answer for. Which cars use a system that requires certain driving techniques, and how do I see that?

For example how do you know which racing cars require double-clutch shifting and which ones don't? I read that you didn't even need to use the clutch in GTR2, and only use it when leaving the cockpits.

I think no matter what, I will use heel and toe because it seems like it's way too much fun. I'm currently modifying my G25 pedals (moving clutch and brake forward, moving the gas left) so I'm not quite ready for using it, but I look forward to it.

I also don't really know anything about the sport.

I can't really enjoy seeing other people drive, so I don't watch anything even though my interest in the sport is so high. Don't know the difference between the classes, GT, G3, etc.

TICTOC · 15 July 09, 20:13

Double clutching is purely up to you, but heel and toe down changes
avoid compression lock ups when down shifting. If you're downshifting
and the car is becoming unsettled, or even spinning out when you release
the clutch a good dose of throttle between the gear change will fix this.

Cam.

~~Visceral_Syn~~ · 15 July 09, 20:27

Only time to use the clutch is launch, be sure to disable auto-clutch or it will tank the launching.

Heel and Toe will provide stability in heavy braking zones, very recommended to determing which zones you should need to do heel and toe techniques.

Classes, for GTR², replicate FIA GT 2003 and 2004 seasons, the GT class is represented by 550hp or more cars, while nGT are represented by cars 500hp or less but more than 400hp. G2, and G3 are cars that participated in the 24 hours of Spa, so not really a class, in the sense of the GT, and nGT. Because they have a specific requirements. The horse power ranges might be off slightly, the tips in driving school has the exact figures or GTR² on Wikipedia

...Syn...

text taken from Driving school textfile:

Quote:

The FIA GT Championship features two distinct classes of cars for the regular season and adds a few more for the Proximus 24 Hours of Spa event.

Each of the classes has separate limits and requirements for performance, which allows for similarly performing cars to be judged against each other for the closest racing and points championship possible. Having mixed classes also makes the races more exciting for the spectator by having more overtaking, and adds an additional amount of race strategy for the drivers.

Learning to use traffic to your advantage is a key to becoming successful in mixed class racing, and following proper etiquette when being overtaken is vital to keep your car on the track and to avoid making enemies.

GT CLASS

GT class is the highest powered group of cars in the series, featuring engines generally in the 600-650 BHP range. It consists of high powered supercars, including the Ferrari 575, Lamborghini Murcielago R-GT, Lister Storm, and the Saleen S7R.

NGT CLASS

The NGT cars are closer in performance to their production versions, but still highly tuned, with engines in the 430-460 BHP range. This class includes the Porsche 996 GT3 RS and RSR, Ferrari 360, Nissan 350Z, and TVR 400R.

SPA SPECIAL CLASSES

The Proximus 24 Hours of Spa endurance event allows a wider mix of cars to be run that do not take part in the standard season, and includes special categories G2 and NG3. The performance of the cars in these groups varies greatly from the relatively modest Lotus Elise and its 200BHP to the Chevrolet Corvette C5R which runs 610BHP, and many cars in between, such as the BMW M3 GTR, Morgan Aero 8, Mosler MT900, Porsche 996 GT2 Bi-Turbo, Chrysler Viper Competition Coupe, and more.

Sitbon · 16 July 09, 12:57

Thanks for the info.

So heel and toe is recommended without auto-clutch, because the car will be too upset without, no? Doesn't that mean you should absolutely heel and toe if you're not using auto-clutch, because otherwise it will be too difficult to be fast and smooth?

I wish the Simbin games would be more clear about screwing up gear change. I read you could get away with screwing up and you won't really damage your car if you don't use the clutch and stuff. That's not realistic and no fun. Although understandable because not everyone has a clutch pedal, or a proper set-up so they can heel toe and double-clutch.

~~Visceral_Syn~~ · 16 July 09, 13:07

Auto-Clutch, automatically blips the gas, which stabilizes it ALOT. Example, use a circuit with a huge braking zone, like for turn 1 on Monza, or turn 1 at Catalunya. Test this braking area with and without auto-clutch. You don't need to use the clutch at all, but with auto-clutch you don't need to blip the gas on downshifts, and you kinda can't get back on the gas at the right rpms ( that part is blurry for me, i still don't launch well, but the Aussie i was racing with, said it killed his launching something bad ). Auto-Clutch off, you will need to blip the gas to keep'er stable in braking, your braking zone shrinks, maybe not significantly but it shrinks. I remember a race with the guys, at donington, i missed my braking point by maybe a meter, and was blippin and downshifting like a mad-man, and i got away with not lockin them up, and insanely shortened braking zone before that nasty-silly chicane.

Most of the cars replicated from FIA GT 2003 and 2004 gearboxes didn't require clutching to shift gears. Thats a subject talked to death in the early days on RaceSimCentral forums. Outside of the launch, there isn't any real use for the clutch in racing.
...Syn...

Sitbon · 16 July 09, 17:25

Darn, I still don't understand. How can the GT cars from 03 and 04 not require clutching to shift gears? How do you heel and toe without using the clutch? Are you saying those cars basically drive like GTR2 with auto-clutch on?

boyracer5500 · 16 July 09, 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sitbon

Darn, I still don't understand. How can the GT cars from 03 and 04 not require clutching to shift gears? How do you heel and toe without using the clutch? Are you saying those cars basically drive like GTR2 with auto-clutch on?

sequential transmissions. They are built in such a way where you really dont have to use the clutch at all except launching and in the pits. IRL the DBR9 has a system where they don't need to heel toe because the car does it for them. I only use the clutch in the pits, launching the car and in the braking zones when I heel-toe. The cars that are in G2 and G3 haven't been homoligated so thats why they have a special class for them. Haven't you noticed the C5-R/bi-turbo 911 runs like a GT car and the mosler/M3 GTR runs like an NGT. They just haven't been homoligated to run the class but it is within the specs.

freejrs · 16 July 09, 18:06

Basically just use the clutch to leave the pits and then shift up without using the clutch but lifting the accelerator briefly. Then use the clutch to downshift and heel toe. It is not required that you use the clutch to downshift everytime but it can help to balance the car and also save your gear box a bit on long runs (real life).

Thats how I approach it anyway.

Sitbon · 16 July 09, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by boyracer5500

IRL the DBR9 has a system where they don't need to heel toe because the car does it for them.

Where's the fun in that? Yuck.

Freejrs, that's a nice approach. I think I'll do it like that.

How do I know which cars in GT Legends has a sequential transmission and which don't, by the way? Man, this is too confusing. There's basically all these different types of cars and I don't really know anything about their drivetrains or transmission types so I don't know to even bother with heel and toe, et cetera. And even if I did, it wouldn't be necessary because the game doesn't treat it like real life, and won't punish you.

boyracer5500 · 16 July 09, 19:12

All the cars in GTL have H pattern transmissions. You can still clutchless upshift in them as well as IRL but its harder to do. It may not be fun in the DBR9 but if you have to drive for a few hours its a lifesaver for the driver. The game does treat it like real life though. I have no combined pedals for the gas/brake and I keep autoclutch off unless im using a car with paddle shifters such as an open wheel or the ferrari 360. I guess I take it very seriously to increase the immersion. I also change the side my G25 shifter is on depend on where the wheel is in the cockpit.

freejrs · 16 July 09, 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by boyracer5500

I also change the side my G25 shifter is on depend on where the wheel is in the cockpit.

Doesn't everyone???

~~Visceral_Syn~~ · 16 July 09, 19:23

Did any cars replicated in GTL have Sequential's?

GTL's relation to GTR² is they are made by the same devolpers. GTL is justa buncha old cars. GTR² replicates FIA GT 2003 and 2004 season.

If you are doing a endurance-race, certain things will break, so it will punish you.

...Syn...

edit... i take it back GTL replicates the FIA GTC-TC, again a buncha old cars...

freejrs · 16 July 09, 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Visceral_Syn

Did any cars replicated in GTL have Sequential's?

No. I very much doubt it.

~~Visceral_Syn~~ · 16 July 09, 19:50

Maybe the TVR ??? Big maybe ????
...Syn...

Sitbon · 17 July 09, 14:37

I have this book by the Skip Barber school that I'm reading. I re-read the section on shifting and it's making a lot more sense now. Heel and toe is doable if you're not using the clutch because you'll just move it to neutral without clutching and then blip it. In some cars you can choose not to double-clutch or even not use the clutch! But according to the book it's always best to double-clutch, because you're not gonna win that much time anyway if you do speed shifts or whatever. On top of that, double-clutching just seems fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boyracer5500

I also change the side my G25 shifter is on depend on where the wheel is in the cockpit.

I may do this as well. Not sure if it will be comfortable with my setup.

stagman · 18 July 09, 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Visceral_Syn

Most of the cars replicated from FIA GT 2003 and 2004 gearboxes didn't require clutching to shift gears.

Maybe not a mandatory requirement but pretty much all the drivers then and even now still heel & toe the down shifts. Up shifts are done by flatshifting, i.e. shifting gear without lifting the throttle, not depressing clutch. Reason this can be done is an ignition cut switch that is activated by the gear shift lever.
That is how one should do it if you want to be realistic. However GTR/GTR2 does not really punish you if you decide to left foot brake everywhere and disregard the clutch pedal. I guess it just wasn't programmed it to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boyracer5500

IRL the DBR9 has a system where they don't need to heel toe because the car does it for them.

It has a system where the throttle blip is applied when the clutch is depressed. The left foot does the clutching, the right does the braking without the need to H&T. At least that was the case in the JetAlliance car. How it works I don't know, Prodrive never told claiming it was their secret. It must have a way of knowing when to operate - my guess is a switch in the shift lever that is activated on downshifts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boyracer5500

I only use the clutch in the pits, launching the car and in the braking zones when I heel-toe.

As mentioned above, pretty much how the proffesional drivers operate their modern GT cars. A modern Touring Car (e.g. WTCC) is a different beast where a different driving style is used.
Now with FIA GT becoming more of a series of sprint races I think the GT driving style will eventually steer toward the WTCC style that many PC simmers already use - left foot braking and no clutch on shifting either up or down.

freejrs · 18 July 09, 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by stagman

Now with FIA GT becoming more of a series of sprint races I think the GT driving style will eventually steer toward the WTCC style that many PC simmers already use - left foot braking and no clutch on shifting either up or down.

Surely you would need to have autoclutch and autoblip enabled if you were to drive like this in GTR2??? I find if I don't lift the accelerator when shifting up and autoclutch is off the car does not like it at all.

stagman · 18 July 09, 18:02

Really? I am a sucker for realism so I don't butcher that car that way but my mate does drive in that manner. No auto clutch or blip, though he does blip the throttle on downshifts which may make it less likely to go wrong. He ain't very consistent so it may have an effect on his style....
That said, the comment was pointed toward where I think the real life driving style is headed, not that of the sim - where I beleive you can get away with a lot of car abuse.

15 July 09, 19:11	#1
Sitbon Join Date: May 2009	When to use clutch, heel-toe, d-clutch? Hi. So I'm actually still playing GT Legends and eventually I step things up and move to GTR2 (been playing both for years but only very recently with a wheel). I do have a few questions that I can't seem to find an answer for. Which cars use a system that requires certain driving techniques, and how do I see that? For example how do you know which racing cars require double-clutch shifting and which ones don't? I read that you didn't even need to use the clutch in GTR2, and only use it when leaving the cockpits. I think no matter what, I will use heel and toe because it seems like it's way too much fun. I'm currently modifying my G25 pedals (moving clutch and brake forward, moving the gas left) so I'm not quite ready for using it, but I look forward to it. I also don't really know anything about the sport. I can't really enjoy seeing other people drive, so I don't watch anything even though my interest in the sport is so high. Don't know the difference between the classes, GT, G3, etc.

16 July 09, 13:07	#5
~~Visceral_Syn~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Memphis, TN Age: 41	Auto-Clutch, automatically blips the gas, which stabilizes it ALOT. Example, use a circuit with a huge braking zone, like for turn 1 on Monza, or turn 1 at Catalunya. Test this braking area with and without auto-clutch. You don't need to use the clutch at all, but with auto-clutch you don't need to blip the gas on downshifts, and you kinda can't get back on the gas at the right rpms ( that part is blurry for me, i still don't launch well, but the Aussie i was racing with, said it killed his launching something bad ). Auto-Clutch off, you will need to blip the gas to keep'er stable in braking, your braking zone shrinks, maybe not significantly but it shrinks. I remember a race with the guys, at donington, i missed my braking point by maybe a meter, and was blippin and downshifting like a mad-man, and i got away with not lockin them up, and insanely shortened braking zone before that nasty-silly chicane. Most of the cars replicated from FIA GT 2003 and 2004 gearboxes didn't require clutching to shift gears. Thats a subject talked to death in the early days on RaceSimCentral forums. Outside of the launch, there isn't any real use for the clutch in racing. ...Syn... Last edited by Visceral_Syn; 16 July 09 at 13:15. Reason: some more clarification

16 July 09, 19:23	#12
~~Visceral_Syn~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Memphis, TN Age: 41	Did any cars replicated in GTL have Sequential's? GTL's relation to GTR² is they are made by the same devolpers. GTL is justa buncha old cars. GTR² replicates FIA GT 2003 and 2004 season. If you are doing a endurance-race, certain things will break, so it will punish you. ...Syn... edit... i take it back GTL replicates the FIA GTC-TC, again a buncha old cars... Last edited by Visceral_Syn; 16 July 09 at 19:30. Reason: update

15 July 09, 20:13	#2
TICTOC Uploader Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Age: 45	Double clutching is purely up to you, but heel and toe down changes avoid compression lock ups when down shifting. If you're downshifting and the car is becoming unsettled, or even spinning out when you release the clutch a good dose of throttle between the gear change will fix this. Cam.

16 July 09, 12:57	#4
Sitbon Join Date: May 2009	Thanks for the info. So heel and toe is recommended without auto-clutch, because the car will be too upset without, no? Doesn't that mean you should absolutely heel and toe if you're not using auto-clutch, because otherwise it will be too difficult to be fast and smooth? I wish the Simbin games would be more clear about screwing up gear change. I read you could get away with screwing up and you won't really damage your car if you don't use the clutch and stuff. That's not realistic and no fun. Although understandable because not everyone has a clutch pedal, or a proper set-up so they can heel toe and double-clutch.

16 July 09, 17:25	#6
Sitbon Join Date: May 2009	Darn, I still don't understand. How can the GT cars from 03 and 04 not require clutching to shift gears? How do you heel and toe without using the clutch? Are you saying those cars basically drive like GTR2 with auto-clutch on?

16 July 09, 18:06	#8
freejrs Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Shire Age: 26	Basically just use the clutch to leave the pits and then shift up without using the clutch but lifting the accelerator briefly. Then use the clutch to downshift and heel toe. It is not required that you use the clutch to downshift everytime but it can help to balance the car and also save your gear box a bit on long runs (real life). Thats how I approach it anyway.

16 July 09, 19:12	#10
boyracer5500 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Womens Lingere Age: 19	All the cars in GTL have H pattern transmissions. You can still clutchless upshift in them as well as IRL but its harder to do. It may not be fun in the DBR9 but if you have to drive for a few hours its a lifesaver for the driver. The game does treat it like real life though. I have no combined pedals for the gas/brake and I keep autoclutch off unless im using a car with paddle shifters such as an open wheel or the ferrari 360. I guess I take it very seriously to increase the immersion. I also change the side my G25 shifter is on depend on where the wheel is in the cockpit.

16 July 09, 19:50	#14
~~Visceral_Syn~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Memphis, TN Age: 41	Maybe the TVR ??? Big maybe ???? ...Syn...

18 July 09, 18:02	#18
stagman Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Dirtyville, NL Age: 37	Really? I am a sucker for realism so I don't butcher that car that way but my mate does drive in that manner. No auto clutch or blip, though he does blip the throttle on downshifts which may make it less likely to go wrong. He ain't very consistent so it may have an effect on his style.... That said, the comment was pointed toward where I think the real life driving style is headed, not that of the sim - where I beleive you can get away with a lot of car abuse.