NoGripRacing.com

Go Back   NoGripRacing Forums > General Discussion > Real Life Motorsport

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 6 December 07, 21:24   #1
GEISHA
Banned by Own Request
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Age: 62
Default Renault guilty

Renault has been found by the WMSC but no penalty will be given.
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/index.shtml
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...06205906.shtml
GEISHA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6 December 07, 22:21   #2
Wee Scot
 
Wee Scot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: "Underwater" in Dumfries, Virginia
Age: 59
Default

Incredible...

Of course, as the Autosport report points out, the FIA had set a similar precedent vis-a-vis McLaren after the first hearing on Stepneygate.
The FIA's decision not to punish the team, despite them being found guilty of having the illegal information in their possession, mirrors the McLaren case from earlier this year.

At the original July hearing into the Mike Coughlan/Nigel Stepney affair, McLaren were found guilty of having Ferrari information in their possession but were not punished because there was no evidence the team had gained any performance benefit from the details.

The decision not to punish the team left Briatore baffled at the time.

Speaking to Gazzetta dello Sport in July, he said: "I don't understand what happened, because to begin with you would only gather the World Council if you had proof. Otherwise, if you don't have proof, you avoid such a meeting.

"So I don't understand what happened: if the FIA admits to have established possession of Ferrari material by McLaren, then why is there no retribution? This verdict reminds me of Pontius Pilate."

McLaren were recalled for a second FIA hearing following the disclosure of fresh email evidence between Fernando Alonso and test driver Pedro de la Rosa.
Two ironies here, of course. One, that Briatore was so outraged back in July. And second, that the difference between $100M punishmnent and $0 came down to emails between Alonso and de la Rosa.

This is rich. Well, at least now we can all stop wondering about where Alonso will work next year...
Wee Scot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6 December 07, 22:38   #3
rasfigjohn
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wee Scot View Post
This is rich. Well, at least now we can all stop wondering about where Alonso will work next year...
Yeah... we were all so worried...
rasfigjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7 December 07, 09:18   #4
GEISHA
Banned by Own Request
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Age: 62
Default

Yeah... we were all so worried

Well Massa is far from worried.

The Ferrari driver told the Spanish television network TV3: "He has done Ferrari a great favour by leaving McLaren."

"The loss will be very significant to them (McLaren) because he is a great driver. They will notice it," Massa added.

McLaren lost quite a lot this year then:
100 m/m dollar, the drivers championship, the constructors championship, the Interlagos appeal,
Alonso and now the Renault case.

Last edited by GEISHA; 7 December 07 at 10:12.
GEISHA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7 December 07, 11:21   #5
Wee Scot
 
Wee Scot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: "Underwater" in Dumfries, Virginia
Age: 59
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEISHA View Post
"The loss will be very significant to them (McLaren) because he is a great driver. They will notice it," Massa added.
We shall see... We shall see...
Wee Scot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7 December 07, 12:13   #6
Highflyer
 
Highflyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Glasgow
Age: 42
Default

Hamilton is going to reign supreme,....watch and see!

Allan
Highflyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7 December 07, 12:19   #7
snowy
Uploader
 
snowy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEISHA View Post
Yeah... we were all so worried

McLaren lost quite a lot this year then:
100 m/m dollar, the drivers championship, the constructors championship, the Interlagos appeal,
Alonso and now the Renault case.
All that loss will be more than made up for by Lewis :roflmao: He has been going quite quickly in testing, especially since he hasn't even tried the 2009 slick tyres yet.
snowy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7 December 07, 12:46   #8
GEISHA
Banned by Own Request
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Age: 62
Default

Hamilton is going to reign supreme,....watch and see!

Ferrari is hard at work on a new Formula One simulator, according to reports.

The sports daily Marca claims that Marc Gene is at the forefront of the high-tech equipment's development, and that his test at Jerez this week was almost exclusively centred on collecting information for the simulator.
McLaren's top secret state-of-the-art simulator is known as being currently the best among F1 teams, and it took much of the credit for Lewis Hamilton's sensational rookie season in 2007.

But Marca believes that Ferrari's new simulator will be superior to all others in F1, following more than 18 months of development led by Felipe Massa's former race engineer Gabriele Delli Colli.


A simulator bred championship is on the cards?
Where are the days of the natural gifted drivers???
GEISHA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7 December 07, 12:51   #9
rasfigjohn
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Default

Let's read Felipe and Lewis:

Felipe: "It's interesting, the throttle used to be like a button, you'd lift or floor it with no half measures. Now you need to be as smooth as possible. But from a safety point of view, these limitations in the use of electronics look like a step backwards to me: in the event of wet races we'll have a lot more accidents. "
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63971

Lewis: "It was fun. It was great, it is like back to normal, I much prefer the car without traction control, I feel more natural without traction control, to be honest. This year, although the car was great, driving with traction control was more unnatural to me. I wanted the minimum level but the team wanted me to use to maximum. I think it is more fun."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64307

Massa sounds soooo old...
rasfigjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7 December 07, 13:51   #10
snowy
Uploader
 
snowy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEISHA View Post

But Marca believes that Ferrari's new simulator will be superior to all others in F1, following more than 18 months of development led by Felipe Massa's former race engineer Gabriele Delli Colli.
On countless occassions Lewis was asked about the time he spends or had spent on the simulator prior to a race. And he repeatedly informed us that he either hadn't been on it, had run a lap or two on Playstation or hadn't found it very helpful. I am inclined to believe him, particularly in light of the time he set on a wet greasy Top Gear track in a medium priced road car. I find it impossible to believe that anyone would deliberately establish a set of erroneous and possibly extremely dangerous reflex actions in a simulation of a track they intend to race on in real life. Racing cars are driven using data received by millions of sensory organs, those predominently situated on the drivers bottom are credited with the most factual authenticity.

Last edited by snowy; 7 December 07 at 14:02.
snowy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9 December 07, 21:11   #11
Kongo
NG's Badass Bassist
 
Kongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK, England, East Midlands, Leicester
Default

Do have to ask where the consistancy lies tho dont ya?
(ON Renault being guilty for same as McLaren).
Kongo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9 December 07, 22:33   #12
Roger
TT/3
 
Roger's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: England
Age: 55
Default

I am just flat confused about how I feel with all this.........:confused: I really want to shout the FIA down, but I kinda see the reasoning. What IS wrong is the continuing witch-hunt against Mclaren - "we'll decide if we like the car just a few weeks before the season starts" that's not reasonable or decent..........the car design will be fixed by now, so surely the FIA can rule on whether they have a problem with I anywhere
Roger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 December 07, 00:27   #13
Revvin
 
Revvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wales, UK
Default

There is no consistency because its different to the McLaren case. Renault were found guilty because they had the information but the FIA were unable to prove they used the information unlike the McLaren case where emails clearly showed the information being dissemintated within the team at a number of levels and between a number of employees. Apart from that there is a firm belief within the FIA it seems that McLaren not only lied at the July hearing but also were economical with the truth in the September hearing so scrutinising the car now still leaves an element of doubt that parts could be changed after the scrutinising period but before the season begins next year.
Revvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 December 07, 09:21   #14
Roger
TT/3
 
Roger's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: England
Age: 55
Default

Well, there are discussions going on all over the place the suggest that the Renault use of the information was not all that different to McLaren's. Also, I don't believe that the FIA ever proved conclusively that McLaren used the data in the design of their car (a couple of drivers talking about it is not really the same as engineering stuff into the car). Certainly, with the evidence the FIA had against McLaren it would have been unlikely that a "proper" court would have convicted them.

In truth, the reason this rumbles on & on is the utterly hysterical nature of the penalty and continued hounding of the team. It was out of all proportion to the alleged "crime" and especially when you look at the pretty shaky evidence.

If I am being honest, it was a relief that Renault didn't get the same type of punishment - can you imagine the outfall of that? !!!

Anyway; I prefer the weak option right now - and that is to let it all rest and put 2007 behind and look forward to 2008.
Roger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 December 07, 17:00   #15
Revvin
 
Revvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wales, UK
Default

Come on Roger! read the transcripts this was engineer, test driver and race driver discussing possible ways to enhance their car from the data received illegally such as the gas used in the tyres, pit stop strategy etc. To not punish that would be negligence by the FIA.

The hysteria comes from certain corners of the British media and IMHO a tint of xenophobia because the 'wronged' team was Ferrari which gave some a new reason to bring up the pathetic tired old 'FIA and Ferrari in cahoots with each other' conspiracy theories.
Revvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 December 07, 17:13   #16
James_1
Uploader
 
James_1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kent, UK
Age: 22
Default

Quote:
Ferrari is hard at work on a new Formula One simulator, according to reports.
I wonder they will sell it to us lot...and then sue us for having secret infomation.
James_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 December 07, 17:14   #17
washington96
 
washington96's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: UK
Age: 45
Default

The fact that Renault were found guilty of having the information should be enough for some kind of penalty. Otherwise what is there to stop teams from stealing information from each other?

How can they say that no advantage was gained from the information? The fact that they had the information is an advantage. Knowing how another team goes about building their cars and systems is an advantage whether the information is used on your teams car or not. This wasn't just one employee that had the discs. Plenty of Renault staff saw the information contained on them.

Another cockup by the FIA which to be honest is to be expected these days.

So I think the moral of this story is it's okay to steal information from another team as long as you can conceal any of the information being used on your present or next years cars. The actual gaining of the information is obviously not an infringment to the rules.
washington96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 December 07, 17:41   #18
Smokinmasta
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norfolk UK
Default

All stinks of double standards to me.
The crime so to speak is having info on the other teams cars - so regardless of use/non use any team should be punished. Seems yet again with FIA that politics 'seem' to be involved in the decision making. Just seems to me far too much is made of the 'crime' anyway. It happens in most other walks of life/industry and in paticular in sport!!! As an example, when football mangers go to other teams or players for that matter, do they forget anything they have learnt about other players weaknesses and strengths etc.............and not adding to the Ferrari and FIA nonsense how about the FIA being french based and Renault being er.....French
Smokinmasta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 December 07, 19:32   #19
Revvin
 
Revvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wales, UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by washington96 View Post
The fact that Renault were found guilty of having the information should be enough for some kind of penalty. Otherwise what is there to stop teams from stealing information from each other?

How can they say that no advantage was gained from the information? The fact that they had the information is an advantage. Knowing how another team goes about building their cars and systems is an advantage whether the information is used on your teams car or not. This wasn't just one employee that had the discs. Plenty of Renault staff saw the information contained on them.

Another cockup by the FIA which to be honest is to be expected these days.

So I think the moral of this story is it's okay to steal information from another team as long as you can conceal any of the information being used on your present or next years cars. The actual gaining of the information is obviously not an infringment to the rules.
The facts at hand in the McLaren case clearly showed willing by a number of McLaren employees to try and gain a competitive advantage, that is what McLaren were punished for under the sporting code. The FIA said they had insufficient evidence to prove this was the case at Renault. The FIA have not closed the case on this and have said if further information comes to light then they will be punished. The FIA are at fault for not tightening up the definition of the breach of the sporting code they punished McLaren for so that they could have punished Renault for having that information regardless of the lack of proof about the dissemination of that information.
Revvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 December 07, 19:48   #20
washington96
 
washington96's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: UK
Age: 45
Default

The crime so to speak is having info on the other teams cars - so regardless of use/non use any team should be punished

Exactly.

The FIA are at fault for not tightening up the definition of the breach of the sporting code they punished McLaren for so that they could have punished Renault for having that information regardless of the lack of proof about the dissemination of that information.

Totally agree and that was my point.
washington96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 December 07, 21:47   #21
Revvin
 
Revvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wales, UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by washington96 View Post
The crime so to speak is having info on the other teams cars - so regardless of use/non use any team should be punished

Exactly.
I recall McLaren were found guilty of possessing the Ferrari data back in the July hearing but not punished despite being in breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code which is what Renault were charged with. It was only when new evidence that showed the ammount of dissemination that went on within McLaren that made the FIA act and this is where there is some parity between the two cases. This is why the FIA have stated that if further evidence comes to light they will act and moseley has said that drivers will not escape punishment like the McLaren duo did. I'd agree that any team having the information should be punished but a precedent was set with McLaren.
Revvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 December 07, 09:54   #22
washington96
 
washington96's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: UK
Age: 45
Default

Yes the precedent was set at McLaren, but in the aftermath of all the crap we had last season you would think the FIA would close the door on this type of activity and make it very clear that any team holding any information on another team will be penalised.

In both cases they said yes the team are guilty but there will be no penalty. So where is the incentive not to steal information from another team???
washington96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 December 07, 18:54   #23
Revvin
 
Revvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wales, UK
Default

I agree with you, I think the regulations need better definition so the lawyers have no room for manouvre but then the FIA should have made the example in the McLaren case as the article they accussed of McLaren and Renault of breaching is pretty broad and could cover the actual possession of other competitors data

Quote:
151. Breach of rules
Any of the following offences in addition to any offences specifically referred to previously, shall be deemed to be a breach of these rules :
a) All bribery or attempt, directly or indirectly, to bribe any person having official duties in relation to a competition or being employed in any manner in connection with a competition and the acceptance of, or offer to accept, any bribe by such an official or employee.
b) Any action having as its object the entry or participation in a competition of an automobile known to be ineligible therefor.
c) Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally.
The hearing last July should have been the end of it, punishment there and then but the media and the likes of Jackie Stewart, Martin Brundle etc made it sound like it was some kind of witch hunt (the FIA are possibly taking legal action against Brundle) So the FIA are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Revvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 December 07, 09:38   #24
snowy
Uploader
 
snowy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Default

The FIA may be damned if they do and damned if they don't but there is a good reason for that. They are the spawn of Satan and the most corrupt, inept, pathetic, tunnel visioned and petty minded governing body in sport. They embody all that is implied by the adage "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". I spit on them and all their progeny. :evil:
snowy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 December 07, 09:47   #25
washington96
 
washington96's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: UK
Age: 45
Default

They will be damned if they keep on behaving as they have over the last few years and they will be damned if they don't get their act together and start overseeing the sport as they were appointed to instead of trying to control every single act that every team makes.

They have gotten out of control and it's plainly obvious that Max Mosely cannot control his own emotions and bias when it comes to doing his job. It's way beyond the time he left and made way for somebody who isn't quite as inept.

After last year there can't be many people who have faith or trust in the FIA.
washington96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 December 07, 11:38   #26
FlashHeart
 
FlashHeart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Age: 49
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revvin View Post
The hysteria comes from certain corners of the British media and IMHO a tint of xenophobia because the 'wronged' team was Ferrari which gave some a new reason to bring up the pathetic tired old 'FIA and Ferrari in cahoots with each other' conspiracy theories.

Aaaaaah, that'll be the 'tired old theory' that Mad Max freely admitted to a month or so ago, then?

I seem to remember something along the lines of "we do favour Ferarri in our decisions, because they are Italian and most others in the teams/FIA etc are British and we don't want them to think we are prejudiced"

wasn't exactly those words - but that was the message. I'll go try and find it again.

Hey - won't it be really funny if Kovy goes to McLaren (we all know how Ron likes his Finns) and decides to spill the beans on Renault?

Probably doesn't know anything, mind...

Whilst looking for above mentioned Mosley interview, I stumbled upon this, from after the Mclaren/Ferrari case:

Quote:
"What's very important though is that people believe the spying has been stopped and will continue to be stopped. Then it does no harm at all.

"The only harm would come if people started to believe it was endemic and we couldn't stamp it out."
from HERE

Also - read THIS one (of many that say the same) and you can't fail to see that the FIA suck big time.

Sort of an EU Commission for motorsport!

Last edited by FlashHeart; 12 December 07 at 11:52. Reason: more info
FlashHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 December 07, 11:58   #27
FlashHeart
 
FlashHeart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Age: 49
Default

Sorry for double post - just found this little nugget on F1 Fanatic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Mosley interview
The McLaren-Ferrari spy scandal

Regarding Ron Dennis telling him about Fernando Alonso’s emails:

At that stage I’d already been told that some emails existed, by Bernie [Ecclestone]. Actually, he’d been shown a Blackberry, but at the time I thought he’d been shown the actual emails… Bernie just said: “I’ve seen these emails, they’re all in Spanish, but I’m told they’re very compromising”… They either came from Alonso or de la Rosa.

This is interesting because it shows that the FIA heard about the new evidence that led to McLaren’s eventual publication before McLaren did. Also the fact that Fernando Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa’s discussions were in Spanish suggests they weren’t disseminated beyond the pair to other engineers or drivers.

Asked directly whether McLaren were convicted without any hard evidence he responded:

This is true. For a lot of it, you had to draw the inference. For me, the key thing was the discussion between de la Rosa and Alonso about information from Stepney being tried in the simulator, and/or the wind tunnel, plus the information about the gas in the tyres and so on. We were given evidence to the effect that none of these things had been tried and that the decision not to try them had been taken by de la Rosa, without consulting any of the engineers. That wasn’t credible.

Max Mosley, Lewis Hamilton, FIA Gala, 2007 | FIAAsked about the inspection of the 2008 McLaren - the results of which won’t be revealed until February next year - he said, “I hope it will turn out that there’s absolutely nothing. But it would be utterly wrong for us not to look.” Last week The Independent said an anonymous FIA source indicated McLaren were in the clear.
FlashHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 December 07, 19:49   #28
Roger
TT/3
 
Roger's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: England
Age: 55
Default

Anyone read McLaren's letter of apology to the FIA? Seems there was even more to this than we suspected. As a stout defender of McLaren - I will probably have some words to eat..........anyone got some garnish
Roger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 December 07, 17:12   #29
Revvin
 
Revvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wales, UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
Anyone read McLaren's letter of apology to the FIA? Seems there was even more to this than we suspected. As a stout defender of McLaren - I will probably have some words to eat..........anyone got some garnish
Has Dennis made the ultimate sacrifice and possibly brought heavy doubt on his own future while hopefully securing McLaren a place in next years championship by stating they will not be pursuing designs based on what could be construed as Ferrari IP?
Revvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 December 07, 17:17   #30
Roger
TT/3
 
Roger's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: England
Age: 55
Default

That's how I read it............still chewing some words.........hard to speak
Roger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 23:05.


Powered by vBulletin® - Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

www.nogripracing.com 2003 - 2014
Page generated in 0.23646 seconds with 8 queries