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Old 9 September 10, 13:11   #1
CarlitosF1
 
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Question Gearing for slow hairpins in GT1 cars

Hi everyone, been struggling to find my best laptime in Donington GP, I'm a noob, and so far I can't go any faster than 1.27.1 with the Murcielago.

I came across this video of an alien laptime, 1.24.7 (alien to me anyway!) and noticed this guy is only reducing to 2nd gear in the hairpins. Now, isn't it supposed to be best to always set up your car so that you take the slowest turn of the track in 1st? Do you use 1st in this track's hairpins anyway?

Also, do you make 4th 5th and 6th gradually shorter in your gearing? I know it's supposed to be a good idea in high powered F1 single seaters, but I'm clueless about GT cars.


Last edited by CX650; 9 September 10 at 21:58.
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Old 9 September 10, 15:57   #2
m0ng0l
 
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Originally Posted by CarlitosF1 View Post
isn't it supposed to be best to always set up your car so that you take the slowest turn of the track in 1st? ...
Not when is gives you too much wheelspin. Also, if the 1st is so short that it only gives you a fraction of a second of acceleration before you need to upshift, then it's better to avoid it.

I set the 6th to suit the fastest part of a track. I like to be on the brakes just moments before the Revs would peak. The rest of the gears spread evenly. The purpose is to keep the engine withinh optimum revs through the gears. But the track layout may force you to alter your gears.

Last edited by m0ng0l; 9 September 10 at 16:18.
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Old 9 September 10, 16:37   #3
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Yes and watch on wich rpm the max power is. It's not usefull to change gear many rpm after.
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Old 9 September 10, 16:55   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlitosF1 View Post
Do you use 1st in this track's hairpins anyway?

Also, do you make 4th 5th and 6th gradually shorter in your gearing?
I always make my setups to use 1st gear in the slowest part of the track. The only exception is if the race begins with a standing start and the track does not have a slow enough corner.

I use a utility called Tom's Engine Shop to find the best power band for the car in question, then set the gearing to stay within that range as much as possible. The car needs the maximum power the faster you are going to overcome the added drag. This means you typically have smaller gaps between the gears (looks like a decreasing height stair steps) in the higher gears. The trick is to keep the revs in the maximum power range the faster you are going. If the car has a very flat torque curve this becomes less important.

One other thing to consider (in addition to the short-shift thing Jonathan mentioned) is the car may be more stable on corner exit in a higher gear. It will be less touchy to small throttle changes and you can actually go to power sooner in a higher gear.
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Old 9 September 10, 17:04   #5
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Personally I never put a GT car in 1st gear unless it's just about stopped, starting from the line or pitting. GT cars produce alot of power, therefore 2nd gear is often short enough for tight corners and provides steady power delivery with minimal spinning. If you find 2nd gear too long then shorten it a little. A good rule of thumb was provided by m0ng0l: choose 6th gear to coincide with the fastest part of the track and spread the gears. Also, you can choose 2nd gear to coincide with the slowest corner, then spread the rest of the gears out evenly. This could provide a good starting point for gear tweaking while follwing jonathan49000's advice.

F1 cars have an insane power/weight ratio, therefore the first few gears are actually quite long. Their upper end gears tend to be more closely spaced because the physical limitations of the top speed are approached quickly from about 5th gear onwards. At tighter tracks they sometimes don't even use 7th gear, since shortening all the gear ratios to fit into the limited top speed allowed by the track results in lots of wheel spin under acceleration and a greater possibility of rear end lock-ups under braking: a very unstable car...

Edit: lol. Lantern posted while I was typing . And yes, Lantern has good advice too
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Old 9 September 10, 19:42   #6
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Thx guys! Will try Engine Shop, heard about it before. I think I'm not getting rid of the 1st for the hairpins, since downshifting to 1st is helping me stop the car when braking hard (or that's how it feels anyway). But I tried to simply short-shift to 2nd when coming out of the hairpins and not only I didn't lose any time: the extra confidence allowed me to shave a couple tenths!

Thx Pokkel121, thought that the "shorter 4th 5th and 6th gears" applied to GT cars too, but didn't quite think that the ratio weight/power in F1s is brutal, one of its own. BTW, do modern F1 cars really don't use 7th gear in some tracks? Monaco? Hungaroring? Didn't quite know this.
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Old 10 September 10, 06:14   #7
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Well, I found this page, a lap of Monaco described by a few drivers: http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/4218/365/

Nowhere do they mention reaching for 7th gear, while the top speed they reach in 6th is around 280km/h! That's still frighteningly quick, and you haven't even engaged top gear...
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Old 10 September 10, 06:28   #8
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As far as the power/weight ratios:

F1 - http://www.f1technical.net/articles/4

Here they say that modern F1 car engines are estimated to produce around 720HP (550kW), with a minimum weight of 600kg, so that's a ratio of 1.2HP/kg or 0.92kW/kg.

GT1 - (http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Se...0-the-classes/)

Here it is stated that a modern GT1 car, maximum power capped at 600HP (450kW) with a minimum weight of 1250kg.

This implies a power/weight ratio of 0.48HP/kg or 0.36kW/kg for the GT1 cars.


*drumroll please*

Soooo, the F1 car's power/weight ratio is at least twice that of a GT1 car!!! Insane
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Old 10 September 10, 10:14   #9
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Both Kimi and Coulthard specifically mention they reach top speed in 6th, so it seems you're right pokkel.

TWICE, OMG!! I'll stick to the Murcielago for the moment, I haven't tried to drive an F1 in a proper sim but I guess they're quite harder to control. BTW, How slow is 1.27 in Donington with a GT1? I'm really struggling to go any faster than that...

and again!
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Old 10 September 10, 11:14   #10
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Try a 20-40 minute race at Donington. It wont help your time, but it helps get used to the "rythm" of the track and builds experience. In my experience, i allways get a better feel for the track and even the setup after some racing. It's only natural to push harder when you are pursued or want to overtake others.
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Old 10 September 10, 11:31   #11
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m0ng0l is right. Another advantage is that you can sit behind other cars and observe racing lines, trying a few different ways of negotiating corners and such. This will also improve your laptimes with increased experience. Just for kicks I'll grab the Lambo this weekend and do a few laps around Donington to post a time. I'll get back to you .

Good luck and have fun...
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Old 10 September 10, 13:34   #12
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Thx guys, will try a 20 laps race with AI at 100%, certainly I've only been hotlapping this track and haven't tried to race in it.
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Old 10 September 10, 13:42   #13
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If you have not touched the car set up, it is normal to have times slower by 2-3 secs of the car potential.

In addition to the gearing box, make sure at least that you set a correct brake bias and to correct the most obvious understeer/oversteer issues. Also for a hotlap, increase the max rev limit to the max.
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Old 10 September 10, 14:17   #14
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I actually DID touch it: revs, little fuel, aero, even rollbars and all. I'm just THAT slow my friend! However, I'm new to setups as well, so I'm sort of messing around trying to find out what works best for me. I think I'm fairly aware of where I'm losing time, at least. So practice is probably what i need the most...
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Old 10 September 10, 16:50   #15
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Additionally you can also train yourself using the time trial mode and learn the ghost car's racing line. At least you've got a real racing driver piloting the ghost car to follow. And he did a 1:24.5, so the driver on the video isn't alien. I recently did a hotlap myself and got a 1:25.5 using the Murcielago. But then I used the keyboard with some assists turned on

I've attached a replay and the setting for the Murcielago, just in case.
Murcielago_settings_and_replay.rar

Keep on practicing
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Old 11 September 10, 18:35   #16
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Thanks gaz232, been checking your replay and it's obvious that your setup is better. I had too little rear wing, just 6, which made my car extremely nervous. I'm down to 1.26.5 now, and working hard to improve. I play with no assists and a rumblepad.
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Old 12 September 10, 09:56   #17
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Well now, isn't this interesting

I have stone-walled at a time of 1:27:00 at Donington in the Lambo. To go faster I shall need to spend alot of time with the setup, since I need to get the car to ride rumblestrips and curbs better. But, IMHO, a 1:26:00 is about the best I can hope for. So, I'm considerably slower than CarlitosF1 and qaz232.

BUT

I'm using a racing wheel and pedals, with no aids except auto-clutch, since I don't have a clutch, whereas you guys are using rumblepads and keyboards. I am now understanding an important point with regards hotlaps and "aliens": It is possible to lap faster when using keyboard or rumblepad with a few aids on than with a racing wheel and pedals and no aids...

So, I'm out of the race for the fastest lap at Donington

BUT

Keep at it CarlitosF1, you might just surprise yourself with your final time AND not too shabby for a "noob" either .

I have no experience racing GTR2 with any input devices other than wheel and pedals, so I'm using logic without experience here. CarlitosF1, try qaz232's setup suggestions, and also use the driving aids of stability control and anti-spin. You should be able to improve your time somewhat, since the car will be more stable under really quick direction changes, hard acceleration and riding rumblestrips, especially when using a keyboard or gamepad!

Good luck and have fun . Do keep us posted on your progress...
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Old 12 September 10, 10:17   #18
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For laptimes, I can clean Donington 2003 but 2004 have a lot of posted lap...

The first one, Mike66520 is a cheater, on some of his hotlaps where he didn't used TC, his inside front wheels slips when accelerating, that mean he changed .hdc from rear wheel drive to 4wheels drive...
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Old 12 September 10, 15:39   #19
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I use no aids except for auto-clutch, and would like to keep it just like that. Can't improve anymore, btw. Also, Donington has to be one of the most challenging tracks out there. Turn 1 and the off-camber blind right-hander that leads to the back straight are soooo nasty...

Pokkel, how do you make the car more stable over kerbs? Mine seems to get terrible oversteer... Also, what's your rear wing setting? I got mine in 8...
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Old 13 September 10, 06:39   #20
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I used a rear wing setting of 8. Any lower and the car was too loose. As far as setting up the car, have a look here:

http://onlineracers.net/images/SetupMatrix.pdf

Very nice setup guide. You should be able to set your car up very well with this.
Have fun
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Old 13 September 10, 15:44   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlitosF1 View Post
Also, Donington has to be one of the most challenging tracks out there...
I was wondering when you'd come to that conclusion. I love it, but it's allways unforgiving. Try Zhuai instead.
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Old 13 September 10, 19:52   #22
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Thx pokkel. But the thing with grip over kerbs is I'm finding opposite advice here and there, so I'm a little lost... In Donington, particularly the kerb at turn 1 just makes my rear snap out, even with the lightest contact. Don't know what's wrong with that turn, I seem to have understeer and oversteer all at once, a very moody car, even though it's fairly stable elsewhere at the track.

Down to 1.26.3 btw, serious sweating and hair loss involved, room for another 3 or 4 tenths of improvement I think!!

Will try Zuhai m0ng0l, don't know that track, but I drove at Barcelona yesterday for a while, and with that smooth asphalt it seemed like a piece of cake next to Donington , which it's not at all.
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Old 14 September 10, 10:32   #23
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Aaaah, you have come across a general rule of thumb with some of the default cars in the game: stay away from the rumble strips, period.

There are precious few that you can use to your advantage, example: exiting Stavelot at Spa Francorchamps. If you just touch the inside rumble strip at full throttle on the exit, then the rumble strip will "pull" the car into the corner exit just enough to get out of Stavelot at full throttle. Avoiding the rumble strip requires a momentary throttle lift-off, using the lift-off oversteer of the car to get through the curve...
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Old 14 September 10, 12:07   #24
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Donnington is difficult to learn, difficult to master, difficult to attack, and very hard to find the correct setup. It's not impossible, but it drove me crazy when i wasn't experienced enough with setups. Now i have a basic setup for a car that works as a good starting point for any track setup, and it's easy to make simple chnges to fit particular tracks. But i don't think i could have found that "personal" setup at Donington.

I think Zhuhai would be a better track to learn. Confidence builds gradually there, and it doesn't drive me crazy. I also like the rythm of it.

Many things can make a car moody, and i can't guess your setup but one way to keep the rear less nervous is to have more preload on the differential. It should make rear wheel slip less likely.

Maybe do what Pokkel121 says and stay away from the strips.
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Old 14 September 10, 19:22   #25
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I couldn't resist taking a few laps at Donny to see where I stand. I used a Tom Goodall setup and did my usual tweaks and hit 26.1, then tried a different one I had and was .5 up, but could not hold on and, honestly, lost interest as I don't like the track. Here are the setups and any others I have for that track/car. I think my limit would be around 1:25.0, but I will never see that as I dislike the track that much!

I will, however, put in some time at Zhuhai if the interest is there.
Attached Files
File Type: zip TG08_Lambo_Doni.zip (3.3 KB, 5 views)
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Old 14 September 10, 23:05   #26
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Dammit, now i have to.
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Old 15 September 10, 07:29   #27
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Will post the replay of my 1.26.3 when I get back home this evening. BTW, I use a Lambo in it skinned like this, it's a blast. Does that cause an error if you try to watch my replay without having the same skin?

Lapped Zhuhai for a while yesterday, lovely little track m0ng0l, will try and see if I can get anywhere near quick in there...

Pokkel, my Lambo is happy to run over kerbs on corner exit (in fact in Donington I'm consistently using the one at the exit of the Hairpin) (the Hairpin that is NOT a hairpin at all, I mean). It's on corner entry where I can't touch them, particularly in turn 1. My preload is in 3, but I suspect it has a more to do with my fast/rebound settings. Can't remember the values now, but I have them higher/ faster than the defaults.
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Old 15 September 10, 14:08   #28
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Well i got my ass handed to me yesterday, but Lambo is a not a car i'm used to. So i tried the RSR which i'm much more at home with, and i got my ass handed to me again, struggleing with low 1:30s... at least i managed to improve the setup and get the car to behave. The bumps and low grip really make life difficult, tyres make lovely noises though.

I spin easily if i mess with rumble strips entering turn 1 and Coppice (turn 8), but i'm too busy locking up and bouncing around entering the hairpin to be bothered by the strip there.

More practise for me...
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Old 8 December 11, 21:40   #29
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I try and learn racing lines, braking/geears///rpmss switching on/off AUTOPILOT in cockpit while on any track in Practice mode...So I can flip back and forth over contuinuous laps ! Doesn't work in Time Trials obviously LOL/

I always drive Full SIMULATOR, no helps/aids, look to apex 35%/ World movem. 50%...manual/auto clutch; may revert to auto trans to learn the flow first. Engine braking is really not helpful...I can slow rapidly on the edge of traction from 171 mph to 2nd gear after the straight on Anderstorp to take that turn, with out downshift braking...which I find can upset the cars balance...

Hope this may help others out... ?
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Old 8 December 11, 21:43   #30
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oh... fav cars is LAmbo R-GT and MC12 and Saleen. rear-engine beasts like Porsche 911, 996, 997 I'm not used to...yet? TVR I love...just don't really like sitting on rhs. lol. FXX...well...not ready yet.
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Old 8 December 11, 22:43   #31
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Default Donnington - Challenging ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m0ng0l View Post
I was wondering when you'd come to that conclusion. I love it, but it's allways unforgiving. Try Zhuai instead.
You bet...especially the hairpin ! OMG... Only really tried it in S2U: wrong entry/gear speed = lose the race !...but now I am hook, line and sinker with GTR 2....!

Now I need a wheel/pedal upgrade ! Driving with F430 GT exp.
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