I miss Geoff Crammond`s

[Chronus]

Just to add that aside from one's opinion...aside from my own opinion, that is, in regards to physics models, equations and algorithms and my own personal quest for realism, 3 guys stand out the most in this small world of racing simulations:
- Dave Kaemmer
- Brian Beckman
- Geoff Crammond

Obviously, it will never happen, but imagine just for one moment what could happen if these three (all of them have ultra-solid mathematical backgrounds, 2 of them being Physicists) ever joined forces to create the best simulation platform.

I tremble...

[NorthernUnion]

I'd be stoked to listen/read that interview is anyone knows where it is?

[Chronus]

I don't know if NoGrip's policy allows for posting the lnk...

I found both the podcast and the pdf of the interview given to a magazine. The podcast, however, seems unavailable at the moment.

[PortuguesePilot]

last i heard of Crammond was in early 2004 and he was collaborating with a software company called Lost Studio in making a new version of Stunt Car Racer. the studio's name ended up being prophetic and the software house folded before the project was completed. i have never heard of GP5. if it packed the same level of oomph of GP4, i would have loved it to come out.

oh, and a side note (because it was mentioned): i don't appreciate iRacing's "business" model one bit. this may sound unrelated in a talk about simulations and their realism but, in fact, it's a very important issue. for me, at least. i'm not a cow, so i don't like to be milked. you may have the greatest, most realistic simulation ever but if you'll implement said "business" model, then i'm out.

[pflynhi]

GP4,F1C and NR2003 all have a home on my new PC
great thread, and thanks for the many helpful links to update the classics.
the '91 vid was cool too .
i agree Kaemmer and Crammond should be first ballott sim racing hall of famers, if there was such a thing

[Chronus]

Just watched a few videos of GP4 and darn!!!!, Crammond's eye for detail was stunning.

Check this (you all prolly know this one but...):

[Chronus]

Forgot to add the guys behind rFactor to the list of Great Ones. Its basically due to them that many of us are part of this simracing community, as isiMotor spawned a myriad of sims and projects.

Credit where its due.

[Kazumi]

Originally Posted by Chronus

What we need is someone who is on it for much more than just money - actually, someone who believes in his/her work and is willing to research&develop properly and wait for the returns...in the long run.

Mhh... then again that one would also need to be willing to develop a full "game" otherwise he could work for manufactors or racing teams or the NASA (as some other devs do and/or did) (hopefully not just for the money )

Originally Posted by PortuguesePilot

apparently, though, some (most?) people are not that interested in the same level of realism and complexity in racing games. many people still prefer the instantly playable, pedal-to-the-metal,

Well, I (and many others) can do that in a (real) car.

I'd be completely lost in a plain!

Then in a sim if it's to difficult just for "sim-ness" I can't countersteer with 90° of 900° and full throttle while the same is possible in the real car counterpart with ease

Some adapt,... others give up.

Originally Posted by PortuguesePilot

300km/h-in-curves-with-no-grip-loss arcade racing game where you can just hit reverse and continue a race, even if you hit a wall dead on at 400km/h (unrealistic speeds used on purpose... because on those games any little Civic will pull those numbers).

it seems that the demand for an ultra-realistic racing game is NOT that high, which makes the obvious investment (in time, money and research) not very attractive to gaming publishers. from my personal point of view, it's a pity...

Mhh... the performance of the cars is no issue in most sims.

If the performance exceeds the performance of the real car counterpart then it's likely just the 'wrong' car simulated (say if a 300 hp got 400 hp in the sim) , so to speak (simple example their are like 1000 other things which are less easy to spot)

If the "ultra fast" is so popular then why did the Sci-Fi Racer sub genre almost disappear (except Wipeout series)

It's not that easy...

[PortuguesePilot]

Originally Posted by Kazumi

Then in a sim if it's to difficult just for "sim-ness" I can't countersteer with 90° of 900° and full throttle while the same is possible in the real car counterpart with ease

in a way i agree. difficulty does not necessarily equate with realism, so difficulty for the sheer difficulty is NOT the right way to go. what i was saying, though - and i thought was obvious but apparently wasn't - is that simulating a race car and driving the said race car on a simulated track, all of them in their completeness, will result in a somewhat challenging endeavour. much more challenging than pushing A on your X-Box joypad, at least. if it was so easy to drive a race car around a track, then everyone would be a race car driver. most games now-a-days (Need for Speed [safe Shift], Midnight Club, Juiced, etc.) are just arcade "instant speed" mindless fun. don't understand this the wrong way, i have no personal grudge against arcade games nor against people who enjoy them - i'm known to indulge myself in them occasionally - but i just prefer the serious approach to actual racing and as close to reality as it can be.

Originally Posted by Kazumi

Mhh... the performance of the cars is no issue in most sims.

in actual sims, no. it really isn't much. but on the average "racing" game, yes. it most definitely is.

Originally Posted by Kazumi

If the "ultra fast" is so popular then why did the Sci-Fi Racer sub genre almost disappear (except Wipeout series)

hmmm. allow me to go out on a limb, here: was it 'cos the sci-fi racers weren't on any of the Fast and Furious movies?

[Kazumi]

Originally Posted by PortuguesePilot

in a way i agree. difficulty does not necessarily equate with realism, so difficulty for the sheer difficulty is NOT the right way to go. what i was saying, though - and i thought was obvious but apparently wasn't - is that simulating a race car and driving the said race car on a simulated track, all of them in their completeness, will result in a somewhat challenging endeavour. much more challenging than pushing A on your X-Box joypad, at least. if it was so easy to drive a race car around a track, then everyone would be a race car driver. most games now-a-days (Need for Speed [safe Shift], Midnight Club, Juiced, etc.) are just arcade "instant speed" mindless fun. don't understand this the wrong way, i have no personal grudge against arcade games nor against people who enjoy them - i'm known to indulge myself in them occasionally - but i just prefer the serious approach to actual racing and as close to reality as it can be.

No, good point

However I think sims can or even must be "pick up and play" and also enjoyable for, say, 10 minutes (in that time you can take a real car to an autocross place and just have more or less serious fun, or finish a ~ 10 km long stage)

Another thing is that many people actually want a challenge. Even if a sim is easy you need to practice a bit, learn braking points and so on, as you said. But in the end those arcade games supply challenges and feel more rewarding, for many people.

Originally Posted by PortuguesePilot

hmmm. allow me to go out on a limb, here: was it 'cos the sci-fi racers weren't on any of the Fast and Furious movies?

True, to some extent.

Generally science fiction got some problems in popularity. can't remember any successful movies or tv series recently (maybe Avatar if that counts as sci-fi) . So, yeah, it doesn't help that people aren't interested in that kind of design. Nothing beats a Supra

[Chronus]

Originally Posted by PortuguesePilot

in a way i agree. difficulty does not necessarily equate with realism, so difficulty for the sheer difficulty is NOT the right way to go. what i was saying, though - and i thought was obvious but apparently wasn't - is that simulating a race car and driving the said race car on a simulated track, all of them in their completeness, will result in a somewhat challenging endeavour. much more challenging than pushing A on your X-Box joypad, at least. [...]

Difficulty does not equate with realism at all.

Pilot after pilot have discussed this with sim developers: GT/NGT/DP cars are much easier to control and drive fast than as they're being portrayed in most simulations.

The inflexion point (where ease turns into difficulty) is that professional pilots are frequently in those last 3% of adhesion, very close to losing it completelly - and even then, they're able (some times) to control the car.

But this absurd idea (difficulty=realism) is more widespread than we think.

When Jeremy Clarkson (Top Gear) introduced Gregger Huttu and the whole simulation vs reality affair, he clearly said about Gregger Huttu:
"he now races in a fiendishly difficulty simulation called iRacing".

From the outside (general public) to the inside, the impression is that driving simulations is supposed to be difficult.

Now, where does that marry with the notion of PC sims being arcade? Hmmm...

[Hitman_M3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDIK6WHPj-w

[Apex1972]

Originally Posted by Hitman_M3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDIK6WHPj-w

No more Codemasters for me. Where can I get this mod I still have my copy of this game in the box.

[Dogzero1]

Here is one of my vids. I prefer GP4 with the older addons. Great stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBLe5Tqx85g

[Black Rebel]

Yeah it was really cool!

[tak47]

I have F1 Championship Season 2000 and I think its the best game I`ve ever played.
Too bad it doesnt work anymore in my win7.
GP4 is also a very good game.

[gavkiwi]

I am keen to try GP4 again, but does anyone know if there is an application that you can download that will improve the graphics and screen resolutions for modern PC's in say one simple step or so. I tried a few mths back to install GP4 im my rather new-ish pc, and it didn't look that great. Which kinda put me off really trying to play this game. There are some really nice mods of old F1 seasons i'd quite like to try. cheers

[JellybeanTiger]

Geoff Crammond gave me my first adrenalin rush when I purchased the first F1GP for my Amiga 500 all those years ago.

[Petrolmania]

Originally Posted by Chronus

When Jeremy Clarkson (Top Gear) introduced Gregger Huttu and the whole simulation vs reality affair, he clearly said about Gregger Huttu:
"he now races in a fiendishly difficulty simulation called iRacing".

From the outside (general public) to the inside, the impression is that driving simulations is supposed to be difficult.
.

I agree. iRacing IS arcade. Fun to play as a game but hardly a "sim". The very idea an MX5 suddenly sliding off the road at anything above walking speed is just absurd!

Den.

[Dogzero1]

Originally Posted by kurtdaniel

Geoff Crammond is a big name in automotive racing.. he designed a lot of <snip> quality car accessories[/URL] that are widely used today.. he surely is missed by car enthusiasts.. But his works will live forever..

What are you on about?

[PortuguesePilot]

it's most likely a bot. he links to unrelated stuff on all of his posts...

[IceT]

Originally Posted by gavkiwi

I am keen to try GP4 again, but does anyone know if there is an application that you can download that will improve the graphics and screen resolutions for modern PC's in say one simple step or so. I tried a few mths back to install GP4 im my rather new-ish pc, and it didn't look that great. Which kinda put me off really trying to play this game. There are some really nice mods of old F1 seasons i'd quite like to try. cheers

you have to open the graphics file with an editor and write your resolution by hand. You can also tweak some more points there.

[Dogzero1]

I still play GP4 coz I love it. It is still the best F1 race sim ever made.
Here is one of my old vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBLe5...feature=relmfu

oops, just realised I have posted it before, sorry. Anyway it's worth watching again.

[Catlin]

I just dug up my old copy of GP4 and cant get it to run on win 7 64b

Ive patched it to the latest 9.6 then installed gpxpatch, set XPSP3 compatibility and run as admin.

The game just comes up with gp4.exe has stopped responding when i boot it up.

[NorthernUnion]

Have you tried running it as an admin?

[Catlin]

I stated that in my post, yeah.

[PortuguesePilot]

i honestly don't know what can be wrong. i have the same OS as you (W7 64b) and the game launches well here. maybe it's something else, like gfx/sfx/mobo drivers or a combination of factors or something? just guessing...

[smoglessbutton4]

I got EA Sports F1 2001 and Grand Prix 3 (and the 2000 season expansion) from my grandparents back in '08! I was hooked on the pair of them and later got F1 Challenge, then, with my own money, I got GP4 last year. I've come a long way since I was playing Need for Speed II SE aged 4! Awesome. End of story.

[Jagdpanzer]

Still have Gp4 installed on my machine. Does anyone know if the Car Set manager and Track Set manager by Zaz is still supported? This used to be the easiest way to swap mods and tracks, but mine has gone buggy and I don't know if there is another utility that will do the same thing.

BTW, Grand Prix Legends is the best F1 game ever created from the driving point of view. No other game physics can even compare to it...

[Nappe1]

Originally Posted by Chronus

Early 2010, heard a podcast of him explaining he had some unfinished business called GP5, that he still was programming a lot in C++ for a variety of projects (the nature of which he didn't disclose).

There is a pdf of the interview for a magazine, somewhere.

Unfortunately, Crammond has dropped quite few promising projects during last few years, most likely not believing that they would be worth of effort. Stunt Car Racer Pro being one of them and the one I anticipated with great interest. IIRC he mentioning return of Revs, which was about 10-15 years ahead of it's time when released. (in fact so much that the hardware was not ready for such huge physics engine. I do recal seeing Revs running eventually on SuperCPU boosted C64, but even with 16 times faster CPU than the original hardware had, it was still almost unplayable.)

As sad as it sounds, the times when one guy did the whole game (usually great game) seem to be ending soon, if not already. Sid Meyer (Railroad Tycoon, Civilization, Colonization...), Chris Sawyer (Transport Tycoon, Rollercoaster Tycoon), Will Wright (Sim City, Sims, Spore...), Geoff Crammond (Revs, Stunt Car Racer, GP-series...) some great names there and only Will Wright seems to be active anymore.