Are Simbin with it?

[zarker88]

After the recent threat by Simbin to abandon the PC market and target consoles instead, makes me wonder... Which consoles do they mean? Maybe the Snes, or perhaps playstation 16? No way could they mean any console released in the last 5 years.

I've just been playing GT4on some friends' consoles, and it's laughable that Simbin have any hope of competing with those games, if GTR EVO is anything to go by. I just can't believe the difference in quality, the console games just blew me away. OK - the physics are... well... Console type physics. I'd say the console physics relate to Simbin physics as SImbin graphics and features relate to the console games.

Simbin's threat, it seems, is just a weak bluff. They'd die a pretty quick death if they venture onto consoles, unless they pull their fingers out.

I'm wondering if they've even looked at console games like GT4 ?

[dadada1]

I think it would be naive to think that Simbin had not tried GT4 or even the latest GT5 prologue, they would surely be very useful tools for evaluating any future releases. My guess would be any future console release would be on Xbox, which would be a huge waste of time because of the lack of any quality steering wheels. If your questioning Evos accuracy with regards to physics I'd say you are very wrong and that Evo has the most accurate physics of any drving game yet produced.

[rookiedaz]

Can't agree mate. A good pc running those games would make a console look daft, as I understand it. And in any case, surely, surely, the most important thing is the physics. Pc hands down.

[zarker88]

no - not the physics. Just features and graphial quality. The features don't even match GTR2 standards (which has wet reflections and night racing).

[dadada1]

Originally Posted by rookiedaz

Can't agree mate. A good pc running those games would make a console look daft, as I understand it. And in any case, surely, surely, the most important thing is the physics. Pc hands down.

I agree with you but take a look at here at nogrip, all the latest F430s have been released using the ALMS model rather than FIA version. The reason seems to be that people prefer the look of both interior and exterior other accuracy of physics. People seem to prefer glossy over accurate.

[freejrs]

They are two totally different markets. You dont think that Simbin would just re-release EVO with better graphics on consoles do you???? It would be a completely different offering that would not really resemble thier PC games that much at all.

I say good luck to them. I think they may have more luck with the XBOX than the PS3 though. There is no way they will be able to go up against GT5 but the XBOX doesnt have any decent racers really. Forza is crap and PGR 4 is basically an arcade game.

[zarker88]

Originally Posted by freejrs

They are two totally different markets. You dont think that Simbin would just re-release EVO with better graphics on consoles do you???? It would be a completely different offering that would not really resemble thier PC games that much at all.

I say good luck to them. I think they may have more luck with the XBOX than the PS3 though. There is no way they will be able to go up against GT5 but the XBOX doesnt have any decent racers really. Forza is crap and PGR 4 is basically an arcade game.

Yes - let them try offering the console market the stuff they dish up to us - with no night racing, no decent wet weather effects, 2d treelines, average sound effects...

Its not just the specifics - THEY JUST DON'T SEEM TO BE TRYING! a few more cars with a few extra ploygons and more tyre grip just doesn't make a cutting edge game - a new breath of air - pushing the envelope - breaking new ground - improving the current - call it what you like.

And that's what they'll have to do for the consoles.
I don't think thay've got it in them

They a great modding team - but developing new technologies/ideas? I don't think so. Hopefully ISI are the ones to carry the flag forward a bit.

[rookiedaz]

Originally Posted by dadada1

I agree with you but take a look at here at nogrip, all the latest F430s have been released using the ALMS model rather than FIA version. The reason seems to be that people prefer the look of both interior and exterior other accuracy of physics. People seem to prefer glossy over accurate.

Well, just goes to show that there is no accounting for tatse then. Mind you, I only play the historics, as I find the modern stuff boring. And I know most people will find that bizarre too, but that's my preference.

[David Wright]

Simbin won't be using gMotor2 for consoles - they have produced a new game engine.

BTW my copis of RACE 07 and GTR Evo have wet weather reflections

[zarker88]

Originally Posted by David Wright

Simbin won't be using gMotor2 for consoles - they have produced a new game engine.

BTW my copis of RACE 07 and GTR Evo have wet weather reflections

Have they been added as a patch? I knoiw Simbin admitted there were no reflections when it was released due to their partners splitting up. I recently tried the Race07 demo again - but didn't try a wet race that time as I thought there was no point.

[David Wright]

Its always had wet weather reflections. They are just more subtle than the reflections in GTR2. GTR2 is closer to a fully flooded track while RACE 07 is more like a track with puddles on it. The GTR2 approach is perhaps prettier but the RACE 07 approach is arguably more realistic. Also the reflections seem stronger on some tracks than others. In the demo Brands has very weak reflections but the reflections at Anderstorp are stronger.

[Mogget]

Its not just the specifics - THEY JUST DON'T SEEM TO BE TRYING! a few more cars with a few extra ploygons and more tyre grip just doesn't make a cutting edge game - a new breath of air - pushing the envelope - breaking new ground - improving the current - call it what you like.

And that's what they'll have to do for the consoles.

In what way are console racing games "breaking new ground"?

[zarker88]

Originally Posted by Mogget

In what way are console racing games "breaking new ground"?

Features and graphical effects.

I think what I'd like is GRID with Simbin physics. Well, Grid's graphics anyway.

Okay - I've retried the demo and you're right. There are reflections Don't know where I got the idea about Simbin's partner doing all the wet effects and pulling out before it was implemented...

[Husky42]

Originally Posted by zarker88

no - not the physics. Just features and graphial quality. The features don't even match GTR2 standards (which has wet reflections and night racing).

Sorry, but i have to disagree.

I have GT5 Prologue and its quite shit imo. First 1080p HD resolution on a 53 inch plasma would you think be astounding. No not really, 1650x1080 GTR2 with 16x AA and full ansio = astounding.

The GT series has great selection, but sounds that are so repetitive its not even funny. The physics are quite questionable. The cars just stick stick stick. I can go fast without even trying in GT games.

I use my PS3 for sports games. For racing games it is a complete and utter fail.

The fact that images even in HD are so jaggie it drives me insane.

The lack of being able to adjust my graphics in detail is also poor - Look at GTA IV - Brilliant game but i can guarantee when the pc release hits in a few weeks the iq will be 10x better.

I have it for PS3 and enjoyed it but was also disappointed i could not have it on PC first because i can use AA and transparency AA to make it look even better.

I'm not quite sure why people think GT5 looks soo good tbh. The models are nice, good reflections but the fact that the models and tracks are over lit and also lack any aa being applied along on the graphics side makes it a disappointing title.


And going back and reading your comments. I'
Let me hit some other points here:

You talk about grid graphics, yes its pretty in a arcade i'm in japan and on acid type of way. Glorified HDR - Unrealistic reflections. Its pretty for an arcade game.

Give me the graphics in EVO or GTR2 vs any of that arcade shit out there. Then you refer to GT4 - That game is not pretty at all. Not in the least, it doesn't even have full 1080 HD support i believe it is only 720p.

To me it sounds like your a racer, who wants arcade graphics. I could handle a little HDR but a very very minor amount. This world doesn't look like how most hdr makes it out to be - Why the hell would i want that in a sim.

If anything we need duller colors, less reflective, more shadow reactive. As right now, most stuff is still too cartoonish. I've toned down the lighting and reflections on most of my GTR2 content and imo it looks better this way.

Take a look at Lee's screenshots - His stuff showcases colors the way they need to be.

Zarker can i ask you to do something.

Take a screenshot of GTR2 for me, unedited whatever track you like.


Then i will take a shot, unedited. I want to compare what we see on screen.

[zarker88]

Well - I've ordered race07.
And i wont ask if there's a crack to allow me to make changes to my PLR file. But I think I'll still be playing GTR2 for quite a while -- at least there's mods for that one.

Sorry - I know this isn't the Race07 forum... but, well.

[David Wright]

Originally Posted by zarker88

And i wont ask if there's a crack to allow me to make changes to my PLR file.

No crack required at least for the Steam version, just notepad or similar. This was altered in a patch.

Why didn't you just get GTR Evo? You get RACE 07, plus almost 20 GT cars plus the Ring for $20.

[zarker88]

hmm - and the all the GTL cars too.

Looks like another purchase for me...

Things seem to have changed since I first tried Race07's demo and its heavy protection.

[Hansaplast]

The casual console-gamer sits on a couch, has no wheel,
is not interested in the reality of a simulation,
cant even handle an FPS-shooter cause he has no mouse,
is in the age of 12 to 17 and dont know a shit about to drive a car,
and got a giant acces to illegal copies for his console at school.

Is thats the primary target group of Simbins marketing ?

[dadada1]

Although I'm not sure I agree with your generalisation, the casual console gamer would soon get bored with a Simbin game when they find they cant keep the car on the track and compete with the AI for more than a couple of laps. I'm sure Simbin have done their homework on a future market for their products and that a large percentage of dedicated Simmers (ie a lot of us) will happily make the migration over to consules as long as we have the support decent wheel to go with it. Without this any driving game is pointless whether it be arcade or proper simulation, this is the issue that really concerns me about Simbins decision.

[David Wright]

The problem is PC games are dying - through lack of popularity or piracy or both. Just visit your local game store if you don't believe me. No developer can afford to ignore consoles even for games which traditionally have been the PCs "jewel in the crown". Crytek recently said they were abandoning PC only titles after their experience with Crysis. Console titles sell in such huge numbers that you don't have to compete directly with the likes of Gran Turismo (and to be fair most reviewers say GT is becoming more sim-like). Just get 10% of Gran Turismo sales and you massively outsell what a PC sim would sell.

[Speedracer1904]

Realistic PC driving game has it's niche market. Just take a look at Nascar 2003, rFactor, GTR seires. It may not set sales records but there a die-hard follwing. There're will be room for PC based driving sim. I hope Simbin learns from what happend to TOCA made by codemasters. It decided to go to more arcade style racing, well.....latest Race Driver game I don't think never sold well.

Formula 1 teams use sims to train it's drivers. As PC get's more powerful it would be able to do kinematics on more complicated car model. At that point lower budget race team may be intrested in using the program to run test on thier setups. Sim is alot cheaper than paying for a track day.

So if Simbin sticks with making realistic racing game, it may pay off at the end. They could make in the future "home version" of GTR for $20 and "pro version" for perfessional teams and sell it for "$2000", and they'll pay for it too, you can't rent a track for $2000.

[trotter2k]

GT5 Prologue is just like a Beta of what there doing there is more to come when GT5 comes out fully , i hope Simbin make a great job with the console market with the new Racing wheels coming out for the PS3 fully FFB that has been designed around GT5 and i also have Race07 witch is a good game even in the wet , at least there trying some thing new to them that ISI have not thought of doing with Rfactor but i don't think they will give up on PC's.

[RMi Release Group]

I think realistic driving in any virtual form will quickly go from being a "niche" market in a year or two and IMHO already has. Nearly every new race game on consoles is having more true views ( cockpit driving ) and some sort of physics that are starting to mimic, in at least garage settings, are close to the real life counterparts. Ya know, all Forza2 needed was a true cockpit mode to be a near-sim.

As the quality of consoles steps up, the hard core audiences that cut thier teeth on PS1 have grown from 8-14 year olds... those kids are now 24-32... thus the market has seen much more success with race sims as the developers have dipped thier toes into giving abit of realisim here.. and there... and the community screams out for more, because they realize they can have thier game and realism too. You cant argue the fact that "tuner" games like GT4 and Forza have driven sales of real aftermarket parts for gamers real cars ( ask my buddy about his '06 scooby STi, all of his purchases began with "ohhh check out this upgrade in my game for my scooby, im getting that/those for mine in x weeks" )

Now watch and mark my words, within 5 years all the top consoles will have impecacabe sims with huge online communities and aftermarket cockpits, wheels, events you name it. Ive tried iRacing, wish I could aford it, and seeing the way that is converting masses away from GMotor... once an "iRacing" clone hits consoles.. the sky is the limit and I could go on forever about the inter-relationships and how one thing drives another cause / effect. ( i mean isnt it obvious? or am i waaaaaaay off base? )

BTW: if you are a sim company or software house reading this thread, yes I am available for employment as I am currently unemployed. A visionary, team player and a game player... just PM me!

[Pierre61]

It's an interesting discussion.
On the one hand I was watching a UK TV show called PLYR recently and they did a review of 'Race Pro' ... the Simbin console offering, and it got a decided 'yawn'.
Is it a question of platforms? ... The more I look around the sim racing forums the more I get the impression that the average PC sim racer is a 30-40 years old bloke ... not that interested in kazamo crash effects et al and could care less about Ronky Spiral Carts.

Simbin do what they do well.. they make cracking good games for the PC ... a small market .. do they want to make stylish racing games for an audience that couldn't give two hoots?

I'm hoping they will want to have a large slice of a small pie rather than go scrabbling after the big pie console crumbs.

[infinitewinter]

Originally Posted by Pierre61

I'm hoping they will want to have a large slice of a small pie rather than go scrabbling after the big pie console crumbs.

I have a feeling Simbin are developing delusions of grandeur. If they think they have a snowball's chance in the console market, they are wrong unless they decide to make pure console-style (NOT ported sim) games. With their recent complaints about backporting of content (hey, maybe if your game was easily moddable and had more features than the older titles, people would port the old stuff forward instead) they've shown me that they've basically jumped the shark as developers.

"Nothing new to see here, but give us money anyways!"

[Husky42]

Originally Posted by David Wright

The problem is PC games are dying - through lack of popularity or piracy or both. Just visit your local game store if you don't believe me. No developer can afford to ignore consoles even for games which traditionally have been the PCs "jewel in the crown". Crytek recently said they were abandoning PC only titles after their experience with Crysis. Console titles sell in such huge numbers that you don't have to compete directly with the likes of Gran Turismo (and to be fair most reviewers say GT is becoming more sim-like). Just get 10% of Gran Turismo sales and you massively outsell what a PC sim would sell.

Dave to this i digress, no it isnt!

The revenue last year for PC Games is mis reported.Here is why: Online Sales - If you look at numbers you realize the outlet for many titles is now online via steam or d2d - I hardly buy boxed software anymore. If i can get a digitial distribution then back it up myself.. Why not? Many pc gamers are doing this. Also, the pc has many exclusive titles and although they end up ported to Consoles later the same go's with exclusive titles being ported to PC from consoles.

Your following this rash little push from console gamers that keep saying the PC Gaming market is dead. Best Buy, Circuit city all still have PC Game sections rival that to the cosoles, unfortunately Gamestop and these places have dedicated themselves more so to Consoles.

However, this "pc gaming is dying" trash has been around for years, when the NES came out - PC gaming was going to die, when the playstation came out - PC Gaming was going to die, with the ps2 and xbox came out - PC Gaming was going to die.

See where i'm headed, being an avid gamer - I own a PS3 and two pc systems. (personally do not like the 360 had one and sold it)

I understandably prefer to game on the PC.

Thats not to say that pc gaming is in disarray. Hardcore pc enthusiast although great in numbers, are still a minority. Console gamers generally are retards. I'm referring to the ones posting on ign/gamespot from there old ass dells about how there console blows pc's away.

These are the people who do not understand the advantages of 16af, Super Sampling AA and Transparency AA - Consoles are jaggy shitboxes when compared to the IQ you get with a PC.

We may not have the largest amount of games, but at least the titles we have are general quality titles. Sure I use my PS3 for Soul Caliber and my sports games, but for RTS, FPS and Racing + Flight Sims - PC wins hands down.

[zarker88]

Originally Posted by infinitewinter

I have a feeling Simbin are developing delusions of grandeur. If they think they have a snowball's chance in the console market, they are wrong unless they decide to make pure console-style (NOT ported sim) games. With their recent complaints about backporting of content (hey, maybe if your game was easily moddable and had more features than the older titles, people would port the old stuff forward instead) they've shown me that they've basically jumped the shark as developers.

"Nothing new to see here, but give us money anyways!"

Have you checked the DOWNLOADS / CARS section here? Its stuffed full of ported over stuff from GTR2 - including the GTL cars and the GTR2 cars. I was really surprised myself, and may even buy EVO on account of this change of heart from Simbin.

Although I really can't understand the drooling about a 2007 version of 'The Ring', with smooth surfaces and modern buildings. I can understand the need though, driving modern cars with just a few centimeters clearance under the skirts really isn't ideal for a bumpy, rutty fun-filled 1960's track - which is why I generally avoid them.

[David Wright]

Originally Posted by Speedracer1904

I hope Simbin learns from what happend to TOCA made by codemasters. It decided to go to more arcade style racing, well.....latest Race Driver game I don't think never sold well.

Are you kidding?

First, TOCA was never a true PC sim, it was always a Playstation port port with unrealistic physics. Second, the latest Race Driver Grid has sold just fine - in the top 3 of the charts in the UK. Simbin titles never get any where near the top 10 let alone the top 3.

So if Simbin sticks with making realistic racing game, it may pay off at the end. They could make in the future "home version" of GTR for $20 and "pro version" for perfessional teams and sell it for "$2000", and they'll pay for it too, you can't rent a track for $2000.

I'm sure Simbin will stick with the realistic racing game. But it will sell on console as well as PC and it will have features and optional aids which appeal to the broader console audience.

[Mogget]

The problem is PC games are dying - through lack of popularity or piracy or both. Just visit your local game store if you don't believe me.

The vast majority of PC gamers buy online.

[David Wright]

Originally Posted by Husky42

Dave to this i digress, no it isnt!

The revenue last year for PC Games is mis reported.Here is why: Online Sales - If you look at numbers you realize the outlet for many titles is now online via steam or d2d - I hardly buy boxed software anymore. If i can get a digitial distribution then back it up myself.. Why not? Many pc gamers are doing this. Also, the pc has many exclusive titles and although they end up ported to Consoles later the same go's with exclusive titles being ported to PC from consoles.

Your following this rash little push from console gamers that keep saying the PC Gaming market is dead. Best Buy, Circuit city all still have PC Game sections rival that to the cosoles, unfortunately Gamestop and these places have dedicated themselves more so to Consoles.

However, this "pc gaming is dying" trash has been around for years, when the NES came out - PC gaming was going to die, when the playstation came out - PC Gaming was going to die, with the ps2 and xbox came out - PC Gaming was going to die.

See where i'm headed, being an avid gamer - I own a PS3 and two pc systems. (personally do not like the 360 had one and sold it)

I understandably prefer to game on the PC.

Thats not to say that pc gaming is in disarray. Hardcore pc enthusiast although great in numbers, are still a minority. Console gamers generally are retards. I'm referring to the ones posting on ign/gamespot from there old ass dells about how there console blows pc's away.

These are the people who do not understand the advantages of 16af, Super Sampling AA and Transparency AA - Consoles are jaggy shitboxes when compared to the IQ you get with a PC.

We may not have the largest amount of games, but at least the titles we have are general quality titles. Sure I use my PS3 for Soul Caliber and my sports games, but for RTS, FPS and Racing + Flight Sims - PC wins hands down.

I didn't say that PC gaming was dead, just dying

Traditional PC games are now selling far better on console than on PC. With Bioshock the ratio was 5:1 in favour of the console and with Call of Duty 4 the ratio was 10:1.

Less than 10 years ago we had F1 titles from EA and Crammond, NASCAR titles from EA and Sierra, rally sims like Rally Trophy and RBR, and bike sims like Superbike 2001. Where are these titles now? Dead or on console. We know that both Simbin and Blimey are working on new sims for consoles. We know Simbin have said they will still support the PC, we are just hoping that Blimey will too.

The original GTA was released at the same time on PC and console. GTA 4 will come out on PC six months after release on console.

Have you ever wondered why mainstream driving wheels such as the Logitech DFP and the new Logitech DFGT are sold as Playstation wheels?

PC gaming will of course survive. MMOGs and The Sims will no doubt top the charts for years to come. There will also be niche products such as iRacing, LFS and rFactor which are best suited to the PC. But the days of mainstream PC only racing sims (and most other games categories) are over. The best thing for the PC is that the XBox360 isn't so far removed from a PC and porting an XBox title to the PC isn't too difficult.

[Mogget]

Traditional PC games are now selling far better on console than on PC. With Bioshock the ratio was 5:1 in favour of the console and with Call of Duty 4 the ratio was 10:1.

BioShock can be considered to be a "traditional PC game" only by the fact that it is an FPS. The style of gameplay is clearly "console", which is why it is rubbish.

[AMAjr455]

good Stuff

I own all three, PS3, 360 and PC. I'll prefer PC always for racing, but will buy all racers on other two as well, I enjoy them for what they offer, not every game has to be created equal for me to enjoy it.

[Dyno247365]

Originally Posted by RMi Release Group

I think realistic driving in any virtual form will quickly go from being a "niche" market in a year or two and IMHO already has. Nearly every new race game on consoles is having more true views ( cockpit driving ) and some sort of physics that are starting to mimic, in at least garage settings, are close to the real life counterparts. Ya know, all Forza2 needed was a true cockpit mode to be a near-sim.

As the quality of consoles steps up, the hard core audiences that cut thier teeth on PS1 have grown from 8-14 year olds... those kids are now 24-32... thus the market has seen much more success with race sims as the developers have dipped thier toes into giving abit of realisim here.. and there... and the community screams out for more, because they realize they can have thier game and realism too. You cant argue the fact that "tuner" games like GT4 and Forza have driven sales of real aftermarket parts for gamers real cars ( ask my buddy about his '06 scooby STi, all of his purchases began with "ohhh check out this upgrade in my game for my scooby, im getting that/those for mine in x weeks" )

Now watch and mark my words, within 5 years all the top consoles will have impecacabe sims with huge online communities and aftermarket cockpits, wheels, events you name it. Ive tried iRacing, wish I could aford it, and seeing the way that is converting masses away from GMotor... once an "iRacing" clone hits consoles.. the sky is the limit and I could go on forever about the inter-relationships and how one thing drives another cause / effect. ( i mean isnt it obvious? or am i waaaaaaay off base? )

BTW: if you are a sim company or software house reading this thread, yes I am available for employment as I am currently unemployed. A visionary, team player and a game player... just PM me!

I agree with all of this except that iRacing is converting people. I'm seeing iRacing for what it is, a scam. gMotor games have always been inexpensive and free modding communities. at iRacing, each track and car you want costs the same amount of one gMotor game. How can you see any sense in this?

[David Wright]

Just because iRacing is expensive, it doesn't make it a scam.

There are two extreems of game development. One is to get a huge development budget and sell your title on console or multiple platforms for $50 or so, resulting in sales in the millions and you get your money back. The other is to get a huge development budget and sell your title for a high price to a few thousand customers. The latter is the iRacing approach.

Its a bit like cars - Ford make millions of cars for a low price and Ferrari make a few thousand for a high price. Its just that for PC racing sims up till now we have just had the option of buying a Ford. iRacing are trying to sell a Ferrari.

Scams are designed to make money. If Mr Henry has really invested almost $20 Million in iRacing and their membership doesn't grow much beyond the 5-10,000 they currently have, then he won't be making any money for a very long time, if ever.

[darock]

Originally Posted by internet wisdom

Formula 1 teams use sims to train it's drivers.

LOL...........

Sorry, but F1 teams use their test teams and the feeder series to train their drivers. Nobody in the real world puts their scrawny butt into a F1 car who needs "training" of the sort you'd get from a game.

It's absolutely amazing the crap that is believed and passed around on the internet.

[Dyno247365]

F1 teams don't need to train their drivers. They've been driving since before they were potty trained.

[unklepepper]

Id link to utube of Nico Rosburg in the Williams F1 simulator training for singapore but im drunk n cant be arsed!

[zarker88]

what you been drinking? Shroom tea?

[darock]

Originally Posted by unklepepper

Id link to utube of Nico Rosburg in the Williams F1 simulator training for singapore but im drunk n cant be arsed!

If the Williams F1 team has a simulator that runs a pc game, then we all ought to apply for driver's jobs.

I'm guessing the video was shot from an angle that didn't show the token slot beside the monitor. But hey, who can argue with a vid on UTube. Or a drunk.

[Husky42]

Originally Posted by darock

If the Williams F1 team has a simulator that runs a pc game, then we all ought to apply for driver's jobs.

I'm guessing the video was shot from an angle that didn't show the token slot beside the monitor. But hey, who can argue with a vid on UTube. Or a drunk.

It was on that stupid preview show for the singapore gp.. forgot the name of it. Inside track or something like that.

Looks kinda like F1C lol

[unklepepper]

Its only so they knew which way to go when they got to the track! It was quite lacking detail, like the bumps & piquet "taking one for the team" on cue But it is a useful tool for teams. The A1GP teams are using a full size simulator to get used to the new car, they were driving snetterton from TRD3 so the sim engine is probably not to dissimilar to what we use!

[David Wright]

There was an engineer from one of the F1 teams who posted on a forum recently. Their racing sim is far far more sophisticated than ours, though obviously it lacks stuff like AI.

[zarker88]

I think the guy who released NETKAR PRO has some big input into those professional sims. At least that's the impression he always seems to give in his excuses for not releasing any patches or further development on it :/