Strange - realy strange

Pero_Grozni · 4 April 06, 22:48

Tonight I thought to have a bit of a change and was on the Mother in a Cobra. The race starts I get into the lead and get something like a 5~7 sec lead. Well than after the first corners and coming up to the Flugplatz I am allready cought in a Cobra. Than that guy was right with me for most of the lap and than finnaly passed me. Upon passing he got a huge advantage in the shortest of time (must have been like a 3~4 sec advantage over me in a period of around 40~50 sec). He than stopped and let me pass him effectivly not completing his lap properly so I couldnt see his laptime. Anyhow - I get to the finnish first after some kamikaze style last corner braking entry and I get my PB with a time of 8:57 something. I am deffinitly not fast on Nurby, but I do think that this is a good lap. The thing that is bothering me is that the guy could have gotten a 8:40 easily with the pace he was going at.

Of course right after the race I ask what was the trick - where did he get that extra speed... Answer was that it was due to Tailbraking he lerned of Aro(some fast guy - his setups usually have lots of rear bias on the brakes).
Now I have checked the replay of that lap and looking at him acctually I see nothing that really sticks out, except that he has very high cornerspeed.

Now if anyone is fammilliar with trick to make cars go faster - was this due to a special driving style or was it due to cheating with too high grip or something (he did have a missmatch BTW). I have a replay of it - uploaded to the hotlaps (is my hotlap of 8:57 something).
One option of course is that I am incompetent and simply cant do a good lap there, but still - I am wondering how he can hold the line where I have all the troubles to keep the car on the track.
Just look from his perspective and than after he passes me look from my perspective - you will see what I am talking about.

Now if there is a trick or a work around to go faster - something like braking trough the corner with a brake set so that it has more rear bias, than I had my last drive in GTL. I saw something like that in GPL and never drove a race in it again - I will not drive games in a way that is different to real life fast driving!

30+JimmyK · 5 April 06, 02:16

Did he mean "Trail braking"? If so its a braking style that has you not get off the gas completely when you use the brakes. I use it in the NASCAR league I race in. Its hard to explain (for me).

SFDMALEX · 5 April 06, 02:47

Well I trail brake all the time.

Thats when you keep braking into the corner.

Meaning you do not brake before the corner and then turn it.

You brake while turning in.

This allows you to brake later...

Depending on the corner its a usefull technique. I do it a lot at long sweeping tracks like Spa and Doni.

Pero_Grozni · 5 April 06, 05:36

No - he didnt mean trail braking (of course I do that a lot as well).
He ment tail-braking. Check that hotlap and you will see what I am talking about.

Roger · 5 April 06, 08:05

I sooooooo want to just say - accept it when you are beaten by a better man :p

I think there is a simple way to lay the demons to rest, get into another race(s) at a track(s) where you really know you are very close to the absolute record. If someone pulls away at seconds a lap, then you should be suspicious that all is not as it should be...........

Pero_Grozni · 5 April 06, 12:14

I have no problem getting beaten by someone that can drive better - heck I get beaten regulary. What I do have a problemn with is when I am beaten by a driving style that cannot be used in real life; a driving style where the little faults of the physics engine are exploited.

Dan · 5 April 06, 13:14

dont ever play GPL then Pero

SFDMALEX · 5 April 06, 17:43

dont ever use 30 degrees of lock then Pero

Pero_Grozni · 5 April 06, 20:49

hehehe - nevermind :p

Teq · 7 April 06, 23:00

Hi Pero.

This seems to be an old trick from GPL days. Have a look here at post #48. I think Kirk explained it perfectly.

Pero_Grozni · 9 April 06, 22:25

Yes - that is what I had in mind.
And this has been bothering me for a week now - it has bothered me so much that I acctually went and did some calculatons of weight transfer, friction circle...
As the parameters are not exactly spot on I cant really be sure, but the calculations as such show that acctually engine braking would give more grip on the fronts than slight braking if the traction circle is taken into consideration. Now that goes for the brakes set so that you get optimal braking.
But I can see now how with lots of rear brakes you could stay on the throttle to have a good braking line and enough braking(although the brakes would fry and you wouldnt get enough braking IRL) and than go into a corner with holding the brake slightly right to the apex. With a good brake distribution(50/50 or even less than 50% on the front) you could get a good weight transfer and not overdo the friction in the moving direction -> ultimatly giving you more max traction force in the radial direction than you can get with engine braking alone. The difference however shouldnt be large -> acctually I doubt that you gain anything with that IRL. I suspect that in all of our sims the friction circle is not done well and you can cheat it driving that way.
And a thing I didnt do - I didnt calculate the radial grip on the rear tires. Probably it get's too low than and the car should loose rear grip because of that.
It also is difficult to determine how much deceleration you can get with engine braking. I guess that it must be quite high if you go down into a low gear -> I once mannaged to acctually loose rear grip(kinda got a locked rear wheels) in my Alfa 75 when I shifted down in high rews and dumped the clutch. I can imagine that racing cars with high compresion are much more agressive than that -> making heal toe necesary to keep going straight.
I would say that trail braking is the way to go till you get onto the desired line and than go on the throttle, but trail braking as such is very hard to do on comp pedals and with no feel of what the car is really doing.
My moto always has been - either throttle or brake while driving. I always was trying to get as little as possible situations where I was coming from the braking section to the apex using engine braking. Very often I was already using some throttle which if I think about it is not quite good as you are giving away your front max grip. Better would be using minimal braking, but of course this will only work properly with lots or rear bias otherwise the fronts will do too much of the braking and also wont have the optimal radial grip.

Also depends on the driving technique - I am more a fan of the wild driving technique than a clean racer. My goal in every corner where braking is needed is to get into the corner slightly sideways right to the apex and have the car turned so that it is almost exactly pointing towards the middle of the exit/straight region of the corner. This way I can get on a lot of power very quickly and have less turning on the end of the corner maximising my straightline speed than. The entry is also done on the max of the grip - acctually a bit over the limmit meaning more speed trough that section.
Very hard to get right, but once you get it right the laptimes drop a lot.
Very possibly I cant do that properly on Nurby due to not knowing the exact lines/combinations and also the fear I cought while trying to drive Nurby properly in GPL. I always find that I am braking where I shouldnt be.
For some strange reason I can cope with rallytracks using driving techniqe I like, but cant really get it working on Nurby.
BTW: I still think that braking into corners like some guys do (GPL especially) never would work in real life and that the sims cant really simulate the real transition that happens there yet.
If that wouldnt be so, than all real racing drivers would be qualifying driving like that - they do trail brake, but not nearly as much as it is done in racing sims - better said they dont have bogus brake bias setttings.

Dan · 10 April 06, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pero_Grozni

I once mannaged to acctually loose rear grip(kinda got a locked rear wheels) in my Alfa 75 when I shifted down in high rews and dumped the clutch. I can imagine that racing cars with high compresion are much more agressive than that -> making heal toe necesary to keep going straight.

well that reminds me of my first RWD car, a capri 3.0.. after driving fwd for a long time and aggresively shifting down and using the engine braking for extra control under hard braking, it took me a few days to adjust my driving to shift down at a lower engine speed because I was locking the rear wheels even with heel/toe :roflmao:

Lord_Verminaard · 13 April 06, 22:48

Happened to me in the Camaro as well, was in 4th at about 85 mph approaching a hard left, braking hard, heel/toe down to 3rd, then to 2nd, just as I let off the brake and turned in, around I went, rear wheels hopped something fierce. Probably was going somewhere around 40 mph then. Damn solid rear axle cars.

Did the same turn a bit later in my Scirocco at about 60, didnt even squak the tires.

Brendan

Small_Fryz · 15 April 06, 10:23

Sounds very interesting.

I can use a bit of acceleration while braking, as i use this method in GT4 to stabalise MR cars under heavy braking. So i can apply this to GTL also. And as for real life drivers not useing this technique check out this link (telemetry of Schumacher vs Barrachello in 2003 F1.

I always left foot brake so it wouldnt take much to learn or at least try these techniques. I will give them a go and see if it makes any difference.

4 April 06, 22:48	#1
Pero_Grozni TT/3 Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Jesenice, Slovenia Age: 32	Strange - realy strange Tonight I thought to have a bit of a change and was on the Mother in a Cobra. The race starts I get into the lead and get something like a 5~7 sec lead. Well than after the first corners and coming up to the Flugplatz I am allready cought in a Cobra. Than that guy was right with me for most of the lap and than finnaly passed me. Upon passing he got a huge advantage in the shortest of time (must have been like a 3~4 sec advantage over me in a period of around 40~50 sec). He than stopped and let me pass him effectivly not completing his lap properly so I couldnt see his laptime. Anyhow - I get to the finnish first after some kamikaze style last corner braking entry and I get my PB with a time of 8:57 something. I am deffinitly not fast on Nurby, but I do think that this is a good lap. The thing that is bothering me is that the guy could have gotten a 8:40 easily with the pace he was going at. Of course right after the race I ask what was the trick - where did he get that extra speed... Answer was that it was due to Tailbraking he lerned of Aro(some fast guy - his setups usually have lots of rear bias on the brakes). Now I have checked the replay of that lap and looking at him acctually I see nothing that really sticks out, except that he has very high cornerspeed. Now if anyone is fammilliar with trick to make cars go faster - was this due to a special driving style or was it due to cheating with too high grip or something (he did have a missmatch BTW). I have a replay of it - uploaded to the hotlaps (is my hotlap of 8:57 something). One option of course is that I am incompetent and simply cant do a good lap there, but still - I am wondering how he can hold the line where I have all the troubles to keep the car on the track. Just look from his perspective and than after he passes me look from my perspective - you will see what I am talking about. Now if there is a trick or a work around to go faster - something like braking trough the corner with a brake set so that it has more rear bias, than I had my last drive in GTL. I saw something like that in GPL and never drove a race in it again - I will not drive games in a way that is different to real life fast driving!

5 April 06, 02:16	#2
30+JimmyK Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ontario, Canada	Did he mean "Trail braking"? If so its a braking style that has you not get off the gas completely when you use the brakes. I use it in the NASCAR league I race in. Its hard to explain (for me).

5 April 06, 02:47	#3
SFDMALEX Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Canada	Well I trail brake all the time. Thats when you keep braking into the corner. Meaning you do not brake before the corner and then turn it. You brake while turning in. This allows you to brake later... Depending on the corner its a usefull technique. I do it a lot at long sweeping tracks like Spa and Doni.

5 April 06, 05:36	#4
Pero_Grozni TT/3 Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Jesenice, Slovenia Age: 32	No - he didnt mean trail braking (of course I do that a lot as well). He ment tail-braking. Check that hotlap and you will see what I am talking about.

5 April 06, 08:05	#5
Roger TT/3 Join Date: May 2003 Location: England Age: 54	I sooooooo want to just say - accept it when you are beaten by a better man :p I think there is a simple way to lay the demons to rest, get into another race(s) at a track(s) where you really know you are very close to the absolute record. If someone pulls away at seconds a lap, then you should be suspicious that all is not as it should be...........

5 April 06, 12:14	#6
Pero_Grozni TT/3 Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Jesenice, Slovenia Age: 32	I have no problem getting beaten by someone that can drive better - heck I get beaten regulary. What I do have a problemn with is when I am beaten by a driving style that cannot be used in real life; a driving style where the little faults of the physics engine are exploited.

5 April 06, 13:14	#7
Dan Site Founder Join Date: Feb 2003	dont ever play GPL then Pero

5 April 06, 17:43	#8
SFDMALEX Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Canada	dont ever use 30 degrees of lock then Pero

5 April 06, 20:49	#9
Pero_Grozni TT/3 Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Jesenice, Slovenia Age: 32	hehehe - nevermind :p

7 April 06, 23:00	#10
Teq Join Date: May 2003 Location: Poland	Hi Pero. This seems to be an old trick from GPL days. Have a look here at post #48. I think Kirk explained it perfectly.

9 April 06, 22:25	#11
Pero_Grozni TT/3 Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Jesenice, Slovenia Age: 32	Yes - that is what I had in mind. And this has been bothering me for a week now - it has bothered me so much that I acctually went and did some calculatons of weight transfer, friction circle... As the parameters are not exactly spot on I cant really be sure, but the calculations as such show that acctually engine braking would give more grip on the fronts than slight braking if the traction circle is taken into consideration. Now that goes for the brakes set so that you get optimal braking. But I can see now how with lots of rear brakes you could stay on the throttle to have a good braking line and enough braking(although the brakes would fry and you wouldnt get enough braking IRL) and than go into a corner with holding the brake slightly right to the apex. With a good brake distribution(50/50 or even less than 50% on the front) you could get a good weight transfer and not overdo the friction in the moving direction -> ultimatly giving you more max traction force in the radial direction than you can get with engine braking alone. The difference however shouldnt be large -> acctually I doubt that you gain anything with that IRL. I suspect that in all of our sims the friction circle is not done well and you can cheat it driving that way. And a thing I didnt do - I didnt calculate the radial grip on the rear tires. Probably it get's too low than and the car should loose rear grip because of that. It also is difficult to determine how much deceleration you can get with engine braking. I guess that it must be quite high if you go down into a low gear -> I once mannaged to acctually loose rear grip(kinda got a locked rear wheels) in my Alfa 75 when I shifted down in high rews and dumped the clutch. I can imagine that racing cars with high compresion are much more agressive than that -> making heal toe necesary to keep going straight. I would say that trail braking is the way to go till you get onto the desired line and than go on the throttle, but trail braking as such is very hard to do on comp pedals and with no feel of what the car is really doing. My moto always has been - either throttle or brake while driving. I always was trying to get as little as possible situations where I was coming from the braking section to the apex using engine braking. Very often I was already using some throttle which if I think about it is not quite good as you are giving away your front max grip. Better would be using minimal braking, but of course this will only work properly with lots or rear bias otherwise the fronts will do too much of the braking and also wont have the optimal radial grip. Also depends on the driving technique - I am more a fan of the wild driving technique than a clean racer. My goal in every corner where braking is needed is to get into the corner slightly sideways right to the apex and have the car turned so that it is almost exactly pointing towards the middle of the exit/straight region of the corner. This way I can get on a lot of power very quickly and have less turning on the end of the corner maximising my straightline speed than. The entry is also done on the max of the grip - acctually a bit over the limmit meaning more speed trough that section. Very hard to get right, but once you get it right the laptimes drop a lot. Very possibly I cant do that properly on Nurby due to not knowing the exact lines/combinations and also the fear I cought while trying to drive Nurby properly in GPL. I always find that I am braking where I shouldnt be. For some strange reason I can cope with rallytracks using driving techniqe I like, but cant really get it working on Nurby. BTW: I still think that braking into corners like some guys do (GPL especially) never would work in real life and that the sims cant really simulate the real transition that happens there yet. If that wouldnt be so, than all real racing drivers would be qualifying driving like that - they do trail brake, but not nearly as much as it is done in racing sims - better said they dont have bogus brake bias setttings.

13 April 06, 22:48	#13
Lord_Verminaard Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Mt. Vernon, Ohio Age: 34	Happened to me in the Camaro as well, was in 4th at about 85 mph approaching a hard left, braking hard, heel/toe down to 3rd, then to 2nd, just as I let off the brake and turned in, around I went, rear wheels hopped something fierce. Probably was going somewhere around 40 mph then. Damn solid rear axle cars. Did the same turn a bit later in my Scirocco at about 60, didnt even squak the tires. Brendan

15 April 06, 10:23	#14
Small_Fryz Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Queensland, Australia Age: 24	Sounds very interesting. I can use a bit of acceleration while braking, as i use this method in GT4 to stabalise MR cars under heavy braking. So i can apply this to GTL also. And as for real life drivers not useing this technique check out this link (telemetry of Schumacher vs Barrachello in 2003 F1. I always left foot brake so it wouldnt take much to learn or at least try these techniques. I will give them a go and see if it makes any difference.