Steering with your right foot and differentials

darock · 19 February 09, 11:53

If you're a newbie, or just someone that thinks the default setups are good enough................

Try steering your car into a corner with your right foot.

On the turnin, if you're fighting understeer, what do you do? Ease off the gas until it starts to answer your steering wheel? Try letting off a bit more emphatically. You're trying to get the car to do something called "power off oversteer". And they'll do it if the setup will let them.

What do you do if your quick letup of the accelerator doesn't do anything? Try reducing the differential coast setting. And don't be shy about it.

The default setting on a lot of cars is something like 40 and 50% for power and coast. And the car plows like a tractor on turnin. But knock that coast value down about 10% at a time and see what happens with the turnin. There are a number of cars that work really well with no coast at all. Zero percent. But lots more that work great with 5-15%.

darock · 19 February 09, 12:00

Don't be afraid of the term "power off oversteer" because of the word "oversteer".

We're TUNING the setup, not flipping on/off switches. And we can adjust the differential quite accurately. What you're doing is moving the setup that's understeering toward oversteer. And when you get it in between, you have........ neither. The car happily steers where you point it.

Sometimes you still have to help the wheel point with some right foot movement, but that's to be expected. After all, if you don't have some natural understeer, you won't have a car that can power out of the turn without understeering when the power down unloads the fronts.

matmo · 19 February 09, 12:24

U rock!

RafaelBR · 19 February 09, 19:09

I use the differentials a lot to tune the FWD cars. In my experience, the diffs along with the brake bias and the gear ratios are the major setup changes needed for the FWD WTCC cars.

I find the default setup understeers a lot under braking and at corner turn-in. The default brake bias is 60:40, which I find utter crap. The car brakes like a tractor plowing through a field, and Motec data shows that the front wheels lock much sooner than the rear ones. I usually run 51:49 or 52:48, depending on the car or track. I find that you can shorten considerably your brake zone and you can take advantage of trail braking with this setup, which I find impossible with the default setup. During the race, I notice that the front tyres suffer massive wear after 8 or 10 laps, so I configure the paddle shifters of my Momo to adjust the brake bias during race, dropping the front bias even further (49:51, even 48:52).

About the coast diff, I find that 15% is too low. I usually set the rear a little stiff to kill turn-in understeer, but I find 25%, 30% is usually enough. I don't like to lift too much off the throttle because the revs drop too much in these cars, and they don't have strong and responsive engines. I like to keep high revs during a corner to make a better exit.

Another major tweak for me is the power diff. IMHO, it's the most difficult and a very important setup with the FWD WTCC cars. Too much makes the car understeer badly at corner exit, and too little makes the car underpowered to carry speed to the next straight. It really depends on the track, and I run lots of Practice sessions to get it right.

I didn't test diff tweaks in the GT cars, but I find them essential in setting the FWD WTCC cars. By setting them, the gear ratios and the brake bias, I usually cut 1,5 to 2 seconds almost instantly from my lap times. In GTR 2, I didn't see such value from setting the diffs, except the coast one for brake stability, but in RACE07/Evo they can make or break the setup.

darock · 19 February 09, 19:55

RafealBR, we're on the same page for sure. The percentages do have quite a bit of range with all the different type cars in the game. The physics of the game locates the center of gravity of the car front to back and that seems to be one of the major factors on how the diff effects the car. Along with the horsepower of the car and which end has the driving wheels.

One other thing I've noticed that seems worth mentioning is an oddity. With some cars, the difference between the power and coast settings for the differential can create a funny handling effect. I've not figured much out about it, but it's obvious when present. If the two settings are too far apart, sometimes there is an obvious deadzone in the steering through the apex of the turn. It's as if the game is overreacting to the car's weight transfer from deceleration to acceleration. It's during that time when the car is between fore to aft weight transfers.

darock · 19 February 09, 20:03

BTW, has anyone got a working rule they use, or a guiding idea for how they've found the preload to work in the game?

Please, leave off the posts that simply recount how it works in real life. What would be worthwhile is what you've found how it works in the game works for you, not what somebody wrote in a book. It really doesn't seem to work in the game like it's written up in books.

About the only time it seems to work consistently at all for me, it appears to loosen up entry and exit when it's set to the lower numbers. That is, on cars that seem to respond to it at all. It hasn't seemed to affect the response time at all. I'm guessing I just haven't found which car really showcases it's effects.

anybody?

RafaelBR · 19 February 09, 20:13

I experience a handling effect from different diff setups mainly when the power diff is too high. I find that I enter the corner with a balanced car, lift the throttle, hit the apex, all of that with good balance. If I just feather the throttle after the apex, the car immediatelly understeers a lot. Then I know that I have to lower the power settings. I usually set the power diff like this: I start with a high value (usually 40%) and I lower it until this "snap understeer effect" is gone.

As for the preload, I'm not able to feel any difference in its settings. I usually leave it at an intermediate value (2 or 3), but I'm not able to see any effect on handling.

darock · 19 February 09, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by RafaelBR

As for the preload, I'm not able to feel any difference in its settings. I usually leave it at an intermediate value (2 or 3), but I'm not able to see any effect on handling.

Same here, except...........

sometimes with the powerful cars, they do seem to respond with the setting at 4 or 5. Truth is, it's not significant enough to tell for sure if or what might be better.

Every so often, I take a shot a setting the preload to 1 and then backing up that test with a run at max. Darned if I think anything happens. I'm guessing it does, I just don't know what to expect and it's too subtle or it's not over/under steer modifying.

Phantom Mark · 20 February 09, 00:31

You have to remember the stock default setups were made to make the cars playable with ALL control devices, so whilst they may feel utter crap with a decent wheel and pedals they make a lot of sense with a Keyboard or XB360 controller

Preload......

The best way to describe how it feels when messing with the preload ( not the technical way )

Say your at 40% diff and 1 preload, apex to exit you touch the throttle and instantly you have power oversteer , by adding more preload the less sensitive the throttle becomes and more aparant traction you gain meaning its easier and quicker to get the throttle down hard.........that oversteer will kick in later in corner than previously, the easiest way I can explain what you should be expecting in a visual way

This description deliberately ignores the other tuning options you could use to cure the problem btw.......

RafaelBR · 20 February 09, 10:38

The stock setups for the GT cars are a little understeering but make sense. They are a good base to work upon. After all, it's better to have an understeering setup when using a keyboard or joystick, since you can't modulate effectively your throttle application to avoid a spin.

But the default brake bias for the FWD WTCC cars is completely off IMHO, whatever control method you use. It makes the car go completely straight when you touch the brakes.

darock · 20 February 09, 12:26

It's sorta hard to believe that the stock setups for any cars have been so expertly tuned to work for every input device possible. Especially when so many of those setups don't even have the gearbox tuned to match the track that setup is provided for. Gearing is dead simple to do and takes no time at all. And the input device isn't even in the picture when it comes to gearing.

Once you start working with the spring rates and really changing them, you'll also discover that those rates really aren't set anywhere close to sensibly for a bunch of the cars. Lots of the garage settings have so little effect, that it's fairly easy to change them quite a lot and have "perfect" results with any input device. Brake bias happens to be one of the few settings that is the most obvious.

BTW, if you'd like to see how effective some things are, simply set your FL to max, and the FR to min for that thing. And test the car. Try spring rates and shock rates. If you can do it dispassionately, you'll see how little some of the things matter. And discover the truth in, "if you think something helps you, whether it does or not, then it helps you."

Phantom Mark · 20 February 09, 13:10

Safe defaults better explains the definition of default setups for original content.

As you already discovered many things are merely a fine tuner in the setup options, things you really only feel when pushing the absolute limits. There is plenty enough coarse tuning options to be felt tho I think ??

darock · 20 February 09, 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantom Mark

Safe defaults better explains the definition of default setups for original content.

As you already discovered many things are merely a fine tuner in the setup options, things you really only feel when pushing the absolute limits. There is plenty enough coarse tuning options to be felt tho I think ??

??????????????

What I've found is that many things are not a fine tuner in the setup options, but hardly affect the handling with large changes of the setup values.

It actually makes sense for Simbin to restrict the effect of the setup changes. They have to keep the impact of changes mild in order to keep the cars handling well enough to keep the interest of the guys who have no idea what they're doing. If the ignorant ones could ruin the car handling with setup changes, a bunch of them would wander off to find something more fun than cars that're almost impossible to drive (and it being their own fault).

Do this test. Set one corner to maximum spring and maximum shock and drive the car. If the settings were really effective, the car would be evil wouldn't it. Your lap times won't even show much effect. That is, unless you BELIEVE you're going to have an evil handling car and that affects the way you drive the sucker. Dive the sucker with no expectations, and you won't see or feel a significant difference. Simbin can't afford to have the setup changes have significant effects with fine tuning changes, because the more than fine tune changes would have catastrophic effect. And would drive away the people who don't know what they're doing in the garage but tinker about in there.

Phantom Mark · 20 February 09, 14:21

Sorry,

I think there is a missunderstanding of what I mean here.

There is many options which are mainly geared towards fine tuning ( ie you need to adjust them a lot to see a perceived difference ), and of course your correct that some options have been restricted to within sensible bounds.

darock · 8 March 09, 02:10

Has anybody seen the Caster setting do anything at all?

It appears to be one of those settings that is ignored by the game.

~~gazman~~ · 8 March 09, 02:40

caster does work. you will mostly notice it under brakes as it will snake into the corner especially used with - camber and pushed forwards. Also caster will stop you outside front wheel from tucking under and going into understeer on entry and mid corner.

darock · 8 March 09, 03:01

So can you give an example of one of your settings?

Is there a certain turn at a track that usually shows the need for caster? and which way do you usually adjust it?

The 2nd turn at Magny-Cours is a good example of a turn that shows camber setting for the FL for example. Seems if it's good there, it'll be good all round the place.

slickdevel · 8 March 09, 12:47

darock, I've been playing at Monza and have found how little most of the "adjustments" will affect the drivability of the car[WTCC Honda] or my lap times. I reference this to the F1 Challenge '99-'02 sim that I've been using for years. I could also add all the other F1 and CART sims I've played! These Evo cars are fun to drive, it's nice to know I can enter an online race, pick a track, a car[that I've never even driven before] and while not be competitive off the bat, have fun and survive! I watch my laptimes drop[or stabilize] as I get used to the track and car.

I'm glad there are a few things that do make a difference. Thanks for pointing some of them out.

darock · 13 March 09, 13:02

Since the caster was mentioned in this thread, I've done everything I know to discover an effect it produces. I haven't noticed any difference at all going into turns or anywhere else. I assumed that might be from my already having tuned out lots of turnin understeer, so I pulled most of that off so the car would rely on the caster being better. No luck at all.

Would any of you who believe it works take another shot at explaining how to use it. And if you'd provide a test you feel shows it working that'd go a long way.

Truth is, I've been driving GTR2 mostly in the last weeks. During recent testing GTR2 was used a bit for comparison of setup changes, and the really excellent handling of the Porsche RSR and Ferrari 550 caught my attention. I've not been able to get any GTREvolution car to come close to either of those two. And I've been trying to figure out what in their makeup is the reason. whatever............ we all have our reasons to do this mess, and driving fun is mine. And the GTR2 cars got it, and I've yet to find an Evo that will free up with anywhere close to the controllability of those two. whatever........

Sensekhmet · 14 March 09, 10:02

One thing I noticed is although I seem to use TTO (trailing throttle oversteer) a lot in real life (hey, I race a small French car... TTO is in its genes) and in Richard Burns Rally, in RACE/GTR Evo I spend very little time off the brakes/gas in the corner, so I can't really play around with TTO much.

~~Visceral_Syn~~ · 14 March 09, 13:29

Caster in conjunction with camber and ARB settings, allows you to get a decent contact patch with out having to use excessive stiff ARB for precision steering. I don't much play Race 07 nowadays, nor even own GTR-E, but in GTR� with the nGT Ferrari 360-GTC, depending on track i'll typically set ARB 120~160, Caster 4.5 to 5.3, and camber enuff to for 5 degree temp spread in race trim all around and 7degree temp spread up front in qualify setup.

For Power Differential settings, on twisty, medium to low speed corner type tracks, i use low power settings, from 25 to 35. Because the outside tire needs to slip for the turn, and to get a good exit speed. On not so twisty tracks, IE: Monza, i crank that Power Diff to 40 or 45, because i'm not tryin to slip, want as much power, ASAP.

As for coast diff, i found out like you mention above, if you want power-off oversteer the lower the coast the more that happens, i much prefer power-off understeer so i use high coast settings from 60~80.

Preload speeds up or slows down the transition to or from power, most notably, the higher the preload the faster and more violent the transition, if you want some serious oversteer, keep lowering the coast and increase the preload, if you enter a braking zone incorrectly, you are almost likely to be in a flat spin from snap oversteer, because if you lift to correct, the back is coming out. I find the preload setting most notably is felt where you get back on the gas, and how you get back on the gas alters this. Supposedly, mid-engined cars are not supposedta be affected all that much by preload settings, but i don't remember where i read this.

just my observations

Settings mentioned are metric, i'm american, but i escaped and lived in germany for while, imperial measurement system makes no sense to me, now.

...Syn...

~~gazman~~ · 14 March 09, 14:50

you always use positve caster and negative camber together unless it's a oval set and then you want less caster and positive caster on the left side or inside wheel.

positive caster lenghtens the wheel base makes the car harder to turn in but its more stable.

If you look at newer rear wheel drive cars when they are on full lock you can see the inner front wheel leaning back and over to the outside edge and the front outside wheel leaning back and on the inside edge of the tyre.
Older cars didn't use much positive caster or negative camber,toe in toe out. when they do U turns or heavy enertia turns the front outside tyre wants to fold over ( rim rubbin ) because they are nearly set straight up n down and with enrtia and weight pushing on the front outside makes the tyre fold over more, where a newer car and with + caster, camber,toe out the outside front tyre will stand more upright with weight and enertia.

+ caster also adds - camber .
I've seen better explanations, hope this helps and doesn't confuse

hoefsy · 7 April 09, 12:14

Guys, this post has really helped me with my Alfa setup, but i cant get the feel for the gts at all. Power/cost/caster and toe ins. Any advice on getting the things to turn in and not understear in middle of corners. Any advice welcome....

mr brownstone · 20 July 09, 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoefsy

Any advice on getting the things to turn in and not understear in middle of corners. Any advice welcome....

Brake a bit earlier and lay off the gas mid corner?

It could always come down to your driving style? set up changes will make some difference but its impossible to make the car do what you want through changing the set up if your not prepared to adjust your corner entry/exit technique, you have to balance the two. change your approach much more than the set up and you "will" get results

Mr B

stevecrossland · 20 July 09, 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by darock

Since the caster was mentioned in this thread, I've done everything I know to discover an effect it produces. I haven't noticed any difference at all going into turns or anywhere else. I assumed that might be from my already having tuned out lots of turnin understeer, so I pulled most of that off so the car would rely on the caster being better. No luck at all.

Would any of you who believe it works take another shot at explaining how to use it. And if you'd provide a test you feel shows it working that'd go a long way.

Truth is, I've been driving GTR2 mostly in the last weeks. During recent testing GTR2 was used a bit for comparison of setup changes, and the really excellent handling of the Porsche RSR and Ferrari 550 caught my attention. I've not been able to get any GTREvolution car to come close to either of those two. And I've been trying to figure out what in their makeup is the reason. whatever............ we all have our reasons to do this mess, and driving fun is mine. And the GTR2 cars got it, and I've yet to find an Evo that will free up with anywhere close to the controllability of those two. whatever........

This strikes as quite interesting...
Most people I know who like the way the cars react to setup changes in GTR2 usually don't like the GTR Evolution way & vice versa. Having driven both games a lot I sway more to the belief that the GTR EVO (RACE07) game reacts better to the minor clicks in car setup menu.

This also will depend on your controller & controller settings. So have a play with those too.

In both games they DO make a difference & it helps to understand exactly how the changes are affecting the car's handling. The trick will be to make only adjust 1 particular setting each time.

We are often engaged in practice servers where our times are being beaten by a tenth of a second & so we are constantly making tiny adjustments in order to gain precious tenths. And it works... sometimes you make the wrong choice & go backwards but usually it ends up in faster setups. Constant evolution of setups. As a result, most guys in our league are up to & over a second per lap quicker at tracks this time around from last season's quick times.

Maybe someone needs to create a list of what all the adjustments do to the car...

The one thing I really couldn't feel any difference with was the preload setting, but reading one of the posts gave me another thing to try out.

Good luck...

~~AndrewJ~~ · 20 July 09, 03:00

I dont know

I tried it but my toes cant grip my Momo no matter what foot I use.

lol

Robertradr · 15 October 09, 17:39

one of the best threads in forum.....more please

enriko81 · 11 December 09, 16:48

i did some hot laps with FM, imho with formula master best settings for differencial are
power:25%-30%
coast:30%

hog075 · 10 July 10, 21:16

Nice thread I like the default setup I have learned to adjust my driving style to match them but the understeer drives me mad in the wtcc fwd cars so I tried this and what a result all the fwd cars handle so much better thanks a lot.

-=Prodrive=- · 22 July 10, 10:07

I'm having a hard time spotting the difference between the settings.

I put coast at 10% went out for a few laps, felt ok, but it then to 60% did a few laps, and it honestly felt pretty much the same.

Does a higher coast value mean that the rear end should be coming around more on corner entry?

PS, BMW 320 driver.

Goffik · 22 July 10, 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Prodrive=-

I'm having a hard time spotting the difference between the settings.

Same here. Back when I just used the default setups, adjusting the diff made a real difference (at least on FWD cars). But since I started learning how to setup other areas, it seems to make less and less difference. Most of the time I just leave it at default now.

holdenss06 · 22 July 10, 11:07

Lower coast values generally mean that the car is easier to turn in, but too little coast can have the rear end swing out when off the throttle... at least that's what I've experienced.

Goffik · 22 July 10, 12:18

Indeed, I take back what I said above. I guess I wasn't noticing the affects because I was busy messing with other areas at the same time. Just tried lowering the diff on one of my 'finished' setups, and the difference was clear. Much easier to turn in, knocked 1sec off of my best lap time.

Time to revisit all my setups, methinks.

19 February 09, 11:53	#1
darock Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Carolina	Steering with your right foot and differentials If you're a newbie, or just someone that thinks the default setups are good enough................ Try steering your car into a corner with your right foot. On the turnin, if you're fighting understeer, what do you do? Ease off the gas until it starts to answer your steering wheel? Try letting off a bit more emphatically. You're trying to get the car to do something called "power off oversteer". And they'll do it if the setup will let them. What do you do if your quick letup of the accelerator doesn't do anything? Try reducing the differential coast setting. And don't be shy about it. The default setting on a lot of cars is something like 40 and 50% for power and coast. And the car plows like a tractor on turnin. But knock that coast value down about 10% at a time and see what happens with the turnin. There are a number of cars that work really well with no coast at all. Zero percent. But lots more that work great with 5-15%.

20 February 09, 00:31	#9
Phantom Mark Join Date: Nov 2006	You have to remember the stock default setups were made to make the cars playable with ALL control devices, so whilst they may feel utter crap with a decent wheel and pedals they make a lot of sense with a Keyboard or XB360 controller Preload...... The best way to describe how it feels when messing with the preload ( not the technical way ) Say your at 40% diff and 1 preload, apex to exit you touch the throttle and instantly you have power oversteer , by adding more preload the less sensitive the throttle becomes and more aparant traction you gain meaning its easier and quicker to get the throttle down hard.........that oversteer will kick in later in corner than previously, the easiest way I can explain what you should be expecting in a visual way This description deliberately ignores the other tuning options you could use to cure the problem btw....... Last edited by Phantom Mark; 20 February 09 at 10:49. Reason: Added some detail....... :)

7 April 09, 12:14	#23
hoefsy Join Date: Dec 2008	Gts----Audi Guys, this post has really helped me with my Alfa setup, but i cant get the feel for the gts at all. Power/cost/caster and toe ins. Any advice on getting the things to turn in and not understear in middle of corners. Any advice welcome....

11 December 09, 16:48	#28
enriko81 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: italy	formula master i did some hot laps with FM, imho with formula master best settings for differencial are power:25%-30% coast:30%

19 February 09, 12:00	#2
darock Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Carolina	Don't be afraid of the term "power off oversteer" because of the word "oversteer". We're TUNING the setup, not flipping on/off switches. And we can adjust the differential quite accurately. What you're doing is moving the setup that's understeering toward oversteer. And when you get it in between, you have........ neither. The car happily steers where you point it. Sometimes you still have to help the wheel point with some right foot movement, but that's to be expected. After all, if you don't have some natural understeer, you won't have a car that can power out of the turn without understeering when the power down unloads the fronts.

19 February 09, 12:24	#3
matmo Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Near Imola	U rock!

19 February 09, 19:09	#4
RafaelBR Join Date: Feb 2008	I use the differentials a lot to tune the FWD cars. In my experience, the diffs along with the brake bias and the gear ratios are the major setup changes needed for the FWD WTCC cars. I find the default setup understeers a lot under braking and at corner turn-in. The default brake bias is 60:40, which I find utter crap. The car brakes like a tractor plowing through a field, and Motec data shows that the front wheels lock much sooner than the rear ones. I usually run 51:49 or 52:48, depending on the car or track. I find that you can shorten considerably your brake zone and you can take advantage of trail braking with this setup, which I find impossible with the default setup. During the race, I notice that the front tyres suffer massive wear after 8 or 10 laps, so I configure the paddle shifters of my Momo to adjust the brake bias during race, dropping the front bias even further (49:51, even 48:52). About the coast diff, I find that 15% is too low. I usually set the rear a little stiff to kill turn-in understeer, but I find 25%, 30% is usually enough. I don't like to lift too much off the throttle because the revs drop too much in these cars, and they don't have strong and responsive engines. I like to keep high revs during a corner to make a better exit. Another major tweak for me is the power diff. IMHO, it's the most difficult and a very important setup with the FWD WTCC cars. Too much makes the car understeer badly at corner exit, and too little makes the car underpowered to carry speed to the next straight. It really depends on the track, and I run lots of Practice sessions to get it right. I didn't test diff tweaks in the GT cars, but I find them essential in setting the FWD WTCC cars. By setting them, the gear ratios and the brake bias, I usually cut 1,5 to 2 seconds almost instantly from my lap times. In GTR 2, I didn't see such value from setting the diffs, except the coast one for brake stability, but in RACE07/Evo they can make or break the setup.

19 February 09, 19:55	#5
darock Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Carolina	RafealBR, we're on the same page for sure. The percentages do have quite a bit of range with all the different type cars in the game. The physics of the game locates the center of gravity of the car front to back and that seems to be one of the major factors on how the diff effects the car. Along with the horsepower of the car and which end has the driving wheels. One other thing I've noticed that seems worth mentioning is an oddity. With some cars, the difference between the power and coast settings for the differential can create a funny handling effect. I've not figured much out about it, but it's obvious when present. If the two settings are too far apart, sometimes there is an obvious deadzone in the steering through the apex of the turn. It's as if the game is overreacting to the car's weight transfer from deceleration to acceleration. It's during that time when the car is between fore to aft weight transfers.

19 February 09, 20:03	#6
darock Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Carolina	BTW, has anyone got a working rule they use, or a guiding idea for how they've found the preload to work in the game? Please, leave off the posts that simply recount how it works in real life. What would be worthwhile is what you've found how it works in the game works for you, not what somebody wrote in a book. It really doesn't seem to work in the game like it's written up in books. About the only time it seems to work consistently at all for me, it appears to loosen up entry and exit when it's set to the lower numbers. That is, on cars that seem to respond to it at all. It hasn't seemed to affect the response time at all. I'm guessing I just haven't found which car really showcases it's effects. anybody?

19 February 09, 20:13	#7
RafaelBR Join Date: Feb 2008	I experience a handling effect from different diff setups mainly when the power diff is too high. I find that I enter the corner with a balanced car, lift the throttle, hit the apex, all of that with good balance. If I just feather the throttle after the apex, the car immediatelly understeers a lot. Then I know that I have to lower the power settings. I usually set the power diff like this: I start with a high value (usually 40%) and I lower it until this "snap understeer effect" is gone. As for the preload, I'm not able to feel any difference in its settings. I usually leave it at an intermediate value (2 or 3), but I'm not able to see any effect on handling.

20 February 09, 10:38	#10
RafaelBR Join Date: Feb 2008	The stock setups for the GT cars are a little understeering but make sense. They are a good base to work upon. After all, it's better to have an understeering setup when using a keyboard or joystick, since you can't modulate effectively your throttle application to avoid a spin. But the default brake bias for the FWD WTCC cars is completely off IMHO, whatever control method you use. It makes the car go completely straight when you touch the brakes.

20 February 09, 12:26	#11
darock Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Carolina	It's sorta hard to believe that the stock setups for any cars have been so expertly tuned to work for every input device possible. Especially when so many of those setups don't even have the gearbox tuned to match the track that setup is provided for. Gearing is dead simple to do and takes no time at all. And the input device isn't even in the picture when it comes to gearing. Once you start working with the spring rates and really changing them, you'll also discover that those rates really aren't set anywhere close to sensibly for a bunch of the cars. Lots of the garage settings have so little effect, that it's fairly easy to change them quite a lot and have "perfect" results with any input device. Brake bias happens to be one of the few settings that is the most obvious. BTW, if you'd like to see how effective some things are, simply set your FL to max, and the FR to min for that thing. And test the car. Try spring rates and shock rates. If you can do it dispassionately, you'll see how little some of the things matter. And discover the truth in, "if you think something helps you, whether it does or not, then it helps you."

20 February 09, 13:10	#12
Phantom Mark Join Date: Nov 2006	Safe defaults better explains the definition of default setups for original content. As you already discovered many things are merely a fine tuner in the setup options, things you really only feel when pushing the absolute limits. There is plenty enough coarse tuning options to be felt tho I think ??

20 February 09, 14:21	#14
Phantom Mark Join Date: Nov 2006	Sorry, I think there is a missunderstanding of what I mean here. There is many options which are mainly geared towards fine tuning ( ie you need to adjust them a lot to see a perceived difference ), and of course your correct that some options have been restricted to within sensible bounds.

8 March 09, 02:10	#15
darock Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Carolina	Has anybody seen the Caster setting do anything at all? It appears to be one of those settings that is ignored by the game.

8 March 09, 02:40	#16
~~gazman~~ Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: canberra Australia	caster does work. you will mostly notice it under brakes as it will snake into the corner especially used with - camber and pushed forwards. Also caster will stop you outside front wheel from tucking under and going into understeer on entry and mid corner.

8 March 09, 03:01	#17
darock Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Carolina	So can you give an example of one of your settings? Is there a certain turn at a track that usually shows the need for caster? and which way do you usually adjust it? The 2nd turn at Magny-Cours is a good example of a turn that shows camber setting for the FL for example. Seems if it's good there, it'll be good all round the place.

8 March 09, 12:47	#18
slickdevel Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Hamden, CT Age: 72	darock, I've been playing at Monza and have found how little most of the "adjustments" will affect the drivability of the car[WTCC Honda] or my lap times. I reference this to the F1 Challenge '99-'02 sim that I've been using for years. I could also add all the other F1 and CART sims I've played! These Evo cars are fun to drive, it's nice to know I can enter an online race, pick a track, a car[that I've never even driven before] and while not be competitive off the bat, have fun and survive! I watch my laptimes drop[or stabilize] as I get used to the track and car. I'm glad there are a few things that do make a difference. Thanks for pointing some of them out.

13 March 09, 13:02	#19
darock Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Carolina	Since the caster was mentioned in this thread, I've done everything I know to discover an effect it produces. I haven't noticed any difference at all going into turns or anywhere else. I assumed that might be from my already having tuned out lots of turnin understeer, so I pulled most of that off so the car would rely on the caster being better. No luck at all. Would any of you who believe it works take another shot at explaining how to use it. And if you'd provide a test you feel shows it working that'd go a long way. Truth is, I've been driving GTR2 mostly in the last weeks. During recent testing GTR2 was used a bit for comparison of setup changes, and the really excellent handling of the Porsche RSR and Ferrari 550 caught my attention. I've not been able to get any GTREvolution car to come close to either of those two. And I've been trying to figure out what in their makeup is the reason. whatever............ we all have our reasons to do this mess, and driving fun is mine. And the GTR2 cars got it, and I've yet to find an Evo that will free up with anywhere close to the controllability of those two. whatever........

14 March 09, 10:02	#20
Sensekhmet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Poland	One thing I noticed is although I seem to use TTO (trailing throttle oversteer) a lot in real life (hey, I race a small French car... TTO is in its genes) and in Richard Burns Rally, in RACE/GTR Evo I spend very little time off the brakes/gas in the corner, so I can't really play around with TTO much.

14 March 09, 13:29	#21
~~Visceral_Syn~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Memphis, TN Age: 46	Caster in conjunction with camber and ARB settings, allows you to get a decent contact patch with out having to use excessive stiff ARB for precision steering. I don't much play Race 07 nowadays, nor even own GTR-E, but in GTR� with the nGT Ferrari 360-GTC, depending on track i'll typically set ARB 120~160, Caster 4.5 to 5.3, and camber enuff to for 5 degree temp spread in race trim all around and 7degree temp spread up front in qualify setup. For Power Differential settings, on twisty, medium to low speed corner type tracks, i use low power settings, from 25 to 35. Because the outside tire needs to slip for the turn, and to get a good exit speed. On not so twisty tracks, IE: Monza, i crank that Power Diff to 40 or 45, because i'm not tryin to slip, want as much power, ASAP. As for coast diff, i found out like you mention above, if you want power-off oversteer the lower the coast the more that happens, i much prefer power-off understeer so i use high coast settings from 60~80. Preload speeds up or slows down the transition to or from power, most notably, the higher the preload the faster and more violent the transition, if you want some serious oversteer, keep lowering the coast and increase the preload, if you enter a braking zone incorrectly, you are almost likely to be in a flat spin from snap oversteer, because if you lift to correct, the back is coming out. I find the preload setting most notably is felt where you get back on the gas, and how you get back on the gas alters this. Supposedly, mid-engined cars are not supposedta be affected all that much by preload settings, but i don't remember where i read this. just my observations Settings mentioned are metric, i'm american, but i escaped and lived in germany for while, imperial measurement system makes no sense to me, now. ...Syn...

20 July 09, 03:00	#26
~~AndrewJ~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2009	I dont know I tried it but my toes cant grip my Momo no matter what foot I use. lol

15 October 09, 17:39	#27
Robertradr Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Durham City , UK.	one of the best threads in forum.....more please

10 July 10, 21:16	#29
hog075 Join Date: May 2010	Nice thread I like the default setup I have learned to adjust my driving style to match them but the understeer drives me mad in the wtcc fwd cars so I tried this and what a result all the fwd cars handle so much better thanks a lot.

22 July 10, 10:07	#30
-=Prodrive=- Uploader Join Date: May 2006 Location: London, UK Age: 37	I'm having a hard time spotting the difference between the settings. I put coast at 10% went out for a few laps, felt ok, but it then to 60% did a few laps, and it honestly felt pretty much the same. Does a higher coast value mean that the rear end should be coming around more on corner entry? PS, BMW 320 driver.

22 July 10, 11:07	#32
holdenss06 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Age: 24	Lower coast values generally mean that the car is easier to turn in, but too little coast can have the rear end swing out when off the throttle... at least that's what I've experienced.

22 July 10, 12:18	#33
Goffik Join Date: Aug 2009	Indeed, I take back what I said above. I guess I wasn't noticing the affects because I was busy messing with other areas at the same time. Just tried lowering the diff on one of my 'finished' setups, and the difference was clear. Much easier to turn in, knocked 1sec off of my best lap time. Time to revisit all my setups, methinks.