not a bug as such...

[night_owl2007]

hey all, ive done a few laps in the corvette C2 Z06 round spa04, and no matter what front tyres i use, or what camber, pressures or setup differences etc, the thing just burns the front tyres ridiculously... and im not the only one, my buddy cam said after a lap or two his tyres where the same in it, has this been noted already and will there be a fix, or has no one else had this problem and me and cam cant drive the thing for crap?

question number 2...
the FFB settings are great in P&G2, ive imported them to my GTR2 second installation and they work fine with a profile tweak, but im kinda asking one of the team this question...you mind if i paste the FFB settings from the .plr file in a FFB help thread for GTR2 if ever needed, or would you guys prefer i didnt do this? cos of all the hard work that goes into tweaking this kinda thing i'd certainly understand a firm "no"

[DucFreak]

Originally Posted by night_owl2007

hey all, ive done a few laps in the corvette C2 Z06 round spa04, and no matter what front tyres i use, or what camber, pressures or setup differences etc, the thing just burns the front tyres ridiculously... and im not the only one, my buddy cam said after a lap or two his tyres where the same in it, has this been noted already and will there be a fix, or has no one else had this problem and me and cam cant drive the thing for crap?

question number 2...
the FFB settings are great in P&G2, ive imported them to my GTR2 second installation and they work fine with a profile tweak, but im kinda asking one of the team this question...you mind if i paste the FFB settings from the .plr file in a FFB help thread for GTR2 if ever needed, or would you guys prefer i didnt do this? cos of all the hard work that goes into tweaking this kinda thing i'd certainly understand a firm "no"

To answer your first question, I guess you're overdriving it with the steering (too much lock in your setup for the steering lock in your physical wheel-controller), so perhaps could presume your using small lock in your actual wheel controller (?)...

...are you using a wheel with non-adjustable steering lock (Momo, RGT, etc)?

...if you're using a Logitech DFP, DFGT, G25 or Fanatec Porsche wheels, raise the steering lock to 900º (degrees) in the driver settings, then try again (adjust steering-lock in car-setup accordingly).

Regarding the second question, personally I think it sounds basicly like an honest good idea, but better send a PM to Aris and Zoomie just in case.

[night_owl2007]

thanks for the reply ducfreak!
as for my wheel, its a G25, and its at 800+ rotation... my buddy cams also got a G25 and his lock is 900... so i dont think thats the problem? you tried this car at spa (or any front end heavy track) yourself then? i think i had the lock set at about 27deg with approx 800deg rotation..will try 900deg and a larger lock like 33 or something, but doubt thats it....

as for Q2, yeah its a good idea for people who loathe the FFB for G25's in GTR2 (theres been quite a few i can tell you) and while my previous (before P&G2 copy over) FFB was decent enough, its wasnt as good as P&G2's imo... ok i will pm them and se what they say, cant hurt...

[JimM]

Originally Posted by night_owl2007

has this been noted already and will there be a fix, or has no one else had this problem and me and cam cant drive the thing for crap?

The second one.

[JimM]

Sorry, I should have added the ...Winkie of absolution.

[Zoomie]

No need for pms .

Post them here in a text file. Not everyone is happy with ffb, no matter how good everyone else says it is, so it'll be good to give some options here and let them experiment.

[Aristotelis]

Originally Posted by night_owl2007

hey all, ive done a few laps in the corvette C2 Z06 round spa04, and no matter what front tyres i use, or what camber, pressures or setup differences etc, the thing just burns the front tyres ridiculously... and im not the only one, my buddy cam said after a lap or two his tyres where the same in it, has this been noted already and will there be a fix, or has no one else had this problem and me and cam cant drive the thing for crap?

Can you please give me the meteo settings you use and ambient/track temperature? A lap time to match would be nice too. I'll gladly have a look and see what is happening. Thank you

question number 2...
the FFB settings are great in P&G2, ive imported them to my GTR2 second installation and they work fine with a profile tweak, but im kinda asking one of the team this question...you mind if i paste the FFB settings from the .plr file in a FFB help thread for GTR2 if ever needed, or would you guys prefer i didnt do this? cos of all the hard work that goes into tweaking this kinda thing i'd certainly understand a firm "no"

No worries, you can do whatever you like. Just give them a hint to try our mod

[Mogget]

Burning the tyres on a Corvette?! Shocking

[jukez]

Hi!

And I thought that all the cars in P&G were oversteery (after GTL experience).

If you could post a replay, we could analyse if you turn the wheels too much. But you could check that by yourself too. Seeing the steering wheel helped me in the beginning.

Have you experienced this with other muscle cars like Falcon, Cobra, Mustang in the same track?

What are the ~average temps of the tyres through the track? Remember straighten the wheel and apply the gas the pedal after the apex.

-Jukka

[David Wright]

May not be relevant - just a long shot - but with the P&G mod please don't use timetrials with the skip outlap enabled and also don't use the novice difficulty setting. The physics won't work with these options i'm afraid.

[night_owl2007]

Originally Posted by Aristotelis

Can you please give me the meteo settings you use and ambient/track temperature? A lap time to match would be nice too. I'll gladly have a look and see what is happening. Thank you

No worries, you can do whatever you like. Just give them a hint to try our mod

thankyou kindly aristotelis, i will do a few laps later today in the vette in question and post a lap or screen of the tyres temps or something,i'll even post my setup if you want, i do concede tho im heavy on the front tyres as i have limited GTL/P&G experience currently, all my GTR2 practice has me trying to drive like a loony!

also i will post your FFB values if needed for some disgruntled FFB GTR2 users in future... but i will of course mention its from P&G2 and that they should send donations to you guys or we'll send the boys round to duff em up!

Originally Posted by Zoomie

No need for pms .

Post them here in a text file. Not everyone is happy with ffb, no matter how good everyone else says it is, so it'll be good to give some options here and let them experiment.

thanks zoomie, but i didnt mean i have better FFB than P&G, P&G has the best FFB ive used yet, so i wanted to post the .plr parameters in a GTR2 post sometime... but yeah i guess with enough tweaking any FFB can be bettered!

Originally Posted by JimM

Sorry, I should have added the ...Winkie of absolution.

i dont quite think we're that bad mate! ok maestro go for a 3.04.5 round spa04 in the ATCC stang and tell me we still stink..i dare ya and if you thrash it please dont post you set a 3.01 or something as me and my buddy will be very redfaced!

[night_owl2007]

Originally Posted by David Wright

May not be relevant - just a long shot - but with the P&G mod please don't use timetrials with the skip outlap enabled and also don't use the novice difficulty setting. The physics won't work with these options i'm afraid.

aha yeah ive been using skip outlap, simulation mode tho, but i use this option with the other faster vette (mentioned below) and all muscle cars...and i dont get problems.. i'll try without skip outlap and see what happens thanks for imput..

Originally Posted by jukez

Hi!

And I thought that all the cars in P&G were oversteery (after GTL experience).

If you could post a replay, we could analyse if you turn the wheels too much. But you could check that by yourself too. Seeing the steering wheel helped me in the beginning.

Have you experienced this with other muscle cars like Falcon, Cobra, Mustang in the same track?

What are the ~average temps of the tyres through the track? Remember straighten the wheel and apply the gas the pedal after the apex.

-Jukka

thanks for your imput mate... i will do a few laps in the vette as i mentioned above later today when i get back from torturing myself at the gym! thats if i dont fall straight asleep like a big baby!
no ive tried the falcon, cobra and stangs at spa04 and im fine, i can even use softer tyres a lowish pressures in these cars, but this particular vette is nasty for the fronts... now the other vette (cant remember its name offhand - 557 bhp goes like the wind, sounds like a chorus of thunder, so sweet to the ears ) this vette was fine round spa on softer tyres and lowish pressures for me, so im pretty sure its not my style for driving these beauties!?
cant remember the tyres temps (140 or so i think after 2 laps) but i will take a screeny of the tyre temps later.. along with a replay and setup post.. (take into consideration ive only done about 4-5 laps in this corvette so far & only had P&G about 8 or 9 days! )

[Aristotelis]

Ok well first thing to do, is to never ever use the time trials mode, as very well explained by David.
The explanation for this is that GTR2 has hardcoded in the .exe the optimum values for tire temps and pressures. If you use this kind of session, then the car will start with very low pressures automatically (whatever you put in the garage doesn't matter). This might still work with some of the very fast cars that have more modern fat tyres. Those tyres could work with lower tyre pressures (although never that slow as GTR2 uses, those are modern car tyre pressures).

For the older corvette, those automatic pressures are probably way to low. So try using normal free practice instead of time trial. I will do a some laps too to double check, Thanks for letting us know.

[aSa]

TimeTrial WITHOUT "SkipOutlap" will work ok. It is the "SkipOutlap" option that will hardcode the tyre pressures at 200kPa. Sometimes I even wonder if it will only use only the first tyre choice too but thats a little bit hard to verify.

I say YES to TimeTrials (without SkipOutlap option)

cheers.. aSa C[_]

[night_owl2007]

Originally Posted by aSa

TimeTrial WITHOUT "SkipOutlap" will work ok. It is the "SkipOutlap" option that will hardcode the tyre pressures at 200kPa. Sometimes I even wonder if it will only use only the first tyre choice too but thats a little bit hard to verify.

I say YES to TimeTrials (without SkipOutlap option)

cheers.. aSa C[_]

yeah thanks for the imput aSa i usually use time trials for my hotlaps so i dont wanna have to bin that option... but i've noticed myself that time trials definately does utilize different tyres, cos i use mediums for the saleen in GTR2 (on some tracks) and the rears dont burn, but if i use the softs, nasty... 110c after 1 hotlap, never mind two!

Originally Posted by Aristotelis

Ok well first thing to do, is to never ever use the time trials mode, as very well explained by David.
The explanation for this is that GTR2 has hardcoded in the .exe the optimum values for tire temps and pressures. If you use this kind of session, then the car will start with very low pressures automatically (whatever you put in the garage doesn't matter). This might still work with some of the very fast cars that have more modern fat tyres. Those tyres could work with lower tyre pressures (although never that slow as GTR2 uses, those are modern car tyre pressures).

For the older corvette, those automatic pressures are probably way to low. So try using normal free practice instead of time trial. I will do a some laps too to double check, Thanks for letting us know.

ok aristotelis i only just read what you said about never using time trials... but i used time trials without skip outlap on, i did a 4 lap stint (including outlap) and the temps of the front were 110 for front left and 104 or so for the right, so i tinkered with the setup, actually softened the front cos of horrendous understeer (hardened the rear a little too), so i dropped front dampers, lock, springs, ARB and camber (from 7 to 5 or so) and i did 4 laps again, temps were more stable, around 95 for left and 90 for right (fluctuates of course) so i'd dialed out some of the nasty understeer (tho it still understeers quite a bit-front tyres searching for grip!) and id sorted the temps out, and it a surefire certainty that it was the skip outlap option causing the tyres probs on the front, why it doesnt do this for other cars and even the vettes rear, i dunno....
as for times, when i had the tyres burning in the past i could only set mid 2.10.5 i think, but now with many noticable errors on my 2nd stints, it was 3.09.0 , so thats showing how much it helps without your tyres smouldering!
so right now i feel like a tool! thanks very much skip outlap option!

also im gonna post my best lap of the 4 i did, a 3.09.0, anyone who wants to watch it and suggest a different way to drive this vette, cos i think after 10 laps id have wasted tyres... id most appreciate it...

[Zoomie]

Originally Posted by night_owl2007

thanks zoomie, but i didnt mean i have better FFB than P&G, P&G has the best FFB ive used yet, so i wanted to post the .plr parameters in a GTR2 post sometime... but yeah i guess with enough tweaking any FFB can be bettered!

lol, I didn't mean ours is the best either, just meant ffb is a subjective thing. Everyone has his own idea of how it should be.

[jukez]

Hi Night Owl!

Downloaded your .zip. Then I run the spa with C2 Z06 (not with the more powerful -65 model, simulation, time trial, outlap enabled), and discovered the same as you. I run 3 laps with both set of tyres D09 and D12. Checked the temps after 3 laps, meaning over 9min of driving. D09 fronts run @ 90-98Celsius and rears about 10C lower.

With D12 fronts 100-110C and rears just below 100C.

I was lapping the ~same speed as you and finally could beat your time by few tenths.

-Jukka

[night_owl2007]

Originally Posted by jukez

Hi Night Owl!

Downloaded your .zip. Then I run the spa with C2 Z06 (not with the more powerful -65 model, simulation, time trial, outlap enabled), and discovered the same as you. I run 3 laps with both set of tyres D09 and D12. Checked the temps after 3 laps, meaning over 9min of driving. D09 fronts run @ 90-98Celsius and rears about 10C lower.

With D12 fronts 100-110C and rears just below 100C.

I was lapping the ~same speed as you and finally could beat your time by few tenths.

-Jukka

hi jukka
so you found the front a bit too hot? and you had skip outlap enabled or disabled did you mean? also i personally think this vette understeers terribly compared to the others, not enough front end grip, consider the ATCCstang... this is also a heavy muscle car but i can set 3.04's round spa in it, but im struggling for 3.09's in the vette which is noticably quicker on the long straights... just my opinion of course but i think the fronts on this vette arent up to scratch... yeah you could say its my driving style and that im used to driving GT1 cars in GTR2, but i have no problems with other beasts such as the other vettes, falcon, cobra's, fordGT etc....
and you just beat my time huh... ya little rat... haha no i havent done many laps in this vette for the tyres reason, so i'd be surprised if you didnt take a few secs off it mate!

edit: and besides i see your finnish? that give you about a sec a lap over me before we start! haha

[jukez]

Yes, Vette seems very slow through long turns (plenty of them in Spa). I think your conclusion is right. Is it the tyres or something related to wheel geometry I don't know.

Maybe some of the developers of mighty P&G know this?

-Jukka

[night_owl2007]

Originally Posted by jukez

Yes, Vette seems very slow through long turns (plenty of them in Spa). I think your conclusion is right. Is it the tyres or something related to wheel geometry I don't know.

Maybe some of the developers of mighty P&G know this?

-Jukka

yeah mate im hoping one of them chimes in? let us know your opinions zoomie,ducfreak, aristotelis?? im not saying the car should be real easy to drive and you can coast around setting major fast laps, but the fronts grip just aint quite right imho... but love the interior and the engine sounds, and the thing is fast in a straight line!

[JimM]

Now you have me curious.
I drove the Zo6 first and loved it, then tried the L88 some time later and noted that it seemed to handle a bit better, but just chalked this up to wider tires or some such.

[RMi Release Group]

i modify all of my ISI/GMotor2 games to use default GTL FFB

[night_owl2007]

Originally Posted by JimM

Now you have me curious.
I drove the Zo6 first and loved it, then tried the L88 some time later and noted that it seemed to handle a bit better, but just chalked this up to wider tires or some such.

yeah loved it cos of the beautiful cockpit and amazing engine sound like me! but when trying a much more powerful vette like the 557bhp L88 (right name?) and not getting any of the same udnersteer problems... i dunno maybe the front tyres should be that way, just seems strange tho that it'd make it 4 or 5 secs a lap slower than the ATCCstang at spa...
gonna test it at some more tracks this coming week anyway, see what it handles like for some of them

Originally Posted by RMi Release Group

i modify all of my ISI/GMotor2 games to use default GTL FFB

ah ive never used GTL before, i have a copy but never installed it, so didnt know how good the FFB was in that, from your opinion it seems like it was done well! i think the P&G2 FFB works good with my GTR2 2nd installation, so thats why i recommend it!

[eliandi]

I've not tried the same car/track combo you are working on, but I do know in some of the cars you MUST willfully induce significant oversteer to keep from smoking the fronts. The different cars all exibit different degrees of understeer, and all have various limits on setup. Some are pretty easy to get into a smooth oversteer, and others require some serious manhandling. For example, to me the ATCC Mustangs are far easier to slide around than the Falcon, but if you can slide the Falcon around its FAST! When you get these old heavy-front cars to oversteer, you actually begin sharing the workload between the front and rear tires.

To do this you need a combination of setup and driving style. You posted before you softened the front. I've found it often better to raise the rear ride height instead of softening the front, sometimes accompanied by stiffening the rear.

When you enter a corner you want to flick the wheel to induce the oversteer and stabilize it by applying a bit of gas unwinding the wheel a bit. The timing is critical. You have to initiate the oversteer when the rears are unloaded, from either the braking or from the throttle-lift. Once you have the oversteer you balance it using the throttle and steering.

[night_owl2007]

Originally Posted by eliandi

I've not tried the same car/track combo you are working on, but I do know in some of the cars you MUST willfully induce significant oversteer to keep from smoking the fronts. The different cars all exibit different degrees of understeer, and all have various limits on setup. Some are pretty easy to get into a smooth oversteer, and others require some serious manhandling. For example, to me the ATCC Mustangs are far easier to slide around than the Falcon, but if you can slide the Falcon around its FAST! When you get these old heavy-front cars to oversteer, you actually begin sharing the workload between the front and rear tires.

To do this you need a combination of setup and driving style. You posted before you softened the front. I've found it often better to raise the rear ride height instead of softening the front, sometimes accompanied by stiffening the rear.

When you enter a corner you want to flick the wheel to induce the oversteer and stabilize it by applying a bit of gas unwinding the wheel a bit. The timing is critical. You have to initiate the oversteer when the rears are unloaded, from either the braking or from the throttle-lift. Once you have the oversteer you balance it using the throttle and steering.

thanks a lot for your imput eliandi, it will be nice getting lapped by you in the future, i'll wave at you as you fly by me and i'll think hes a nice guy that eliandi!
no seriously i know i need to learn a different style in P&G, problem is i still play GTR2 a lot too...so P&G seems to be slowing me in GT1 cars... and vice versa..im not very adaptable or skilled unfortunately.. i can hotlap well in GTR2's cars, but thats the end of my skill.. and no im not just being humble..
also a point is my buddy cam is very experienced with GTL cars and has P&G too as i mentioned earlier...hes having same problems with the vette in question.. its just a bit too understeery i think, but hey the mod makers know a million time more than me about car physics and such...so im gonna suck it up and get on with it!