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Unread 26 December 06, 23:58   #1
Pero_Grozni
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Default Few tips from PG about driving GTL

Well a few chaps asked me if I could write a few tips and I allready planed to do it anyway so here it goes.

First off this is how I prefer to drive. Here I may be amongst the quickest, but I certanly am not amongst the quickest guys around. On a normal track (Imola or simmilar length) I am about a second or more behind the fastest chaps.
As you might know my natural driving style is very sideways orientated - that is how I grew up driving and it will always remain my prefered style. I learned to drive that way on real cars way before I got into sim racing and sometimes it is hard for me to do something in sims which wont work in real life, so that is what is restricting me a bit, but I dont mind.

Anyhow - down to the usefull stuff.
First off my settings:
Wheel: Logitech Wingman Formula Force GP (old and cheap design, but it still works for me)
Steering sensitivity: 40%
Throtle sensitivity: 85%
Brake sensitivity: 83%
Clutch sensitivity: 93%
Speed sensitive steering: 0%
FFB: Full effects and on 58% (dont like to have much effect in GTL as it is a bit late compared to real life and makes me react too late - I react based on sight and sound, not on ffb)
In car setup I use normally about 30,5 degrees steering lock - more in less direct cars like the Falcon and less in direct cars like the 911

Driving stuff

I dont use auto clutch. It is slow off the start, slower on acceleration compared to just changing gear without using clutch and on downshifting it dosent allow for direction corections you can do with crude downshifts without using clutch.
The way I drive is than - I use clutch only for the start and if I spin...
On shifting gear I just change the gear and dont use any clutch at all. If I really go for it I dont even lift off on upshifts, but I am kinda used to lift off a bit normally. That especially is important in longer races with the Escort, Vette or Pantera as they will blow their engines if you dont lift off.

Now on the straight road that is all fine and well, but most tracks you have to downshift or upshift through corners.
Here the tricky bit starts - due to no autoclutch you have to be very careful with the throtle on the upshifts - usually going way off it on the shift (lower gears).
Sometimes though it is usefull to have full throtle and shift up. That is normally on a longer corner when you are accelerating out and your car wants to run wide. To get wrid of the understeer you shift to a higher gear without clutch and lifting off and the back end will just change the line enought to keep your car moving exactly to the exit. This is mostly at higher speeds - usually from third into fourth gear. Sometimes I acctually change gear to early to make this happen. Track example - Zolder second long righthander and the second righthander after the second chicane.

Now to the very important bit - downshifting and braking.
Most of the GTL cars have a tendency to understeer on entry and to be nasty on the turnover from braking to trailing to accelerating. To negate this and to allow for downshifting without clutch the sim world developed a different technique to real racing - that is braking and having some throtle at the same time. The ultimate way of using this is to have some throtle on all the time you drive and apply the brake depending on how much braking you need. This will help on the engine braking on downshifts - you dont spin and you can drop the gears really fast to help with the braking - and more importantly load the front tires more than engine braking alone to allow more turn in speed. Of course you have to be braking just right and have just enough throtle to make it work, but it is well worth learning it as it is much quicker than the usuall way.
The other bonus you get and should use out of it is that you have no changeover from trailing the engine to pushing with the engine. Usually this changeover makes the car move a bit and you get off the line just a bit so you have to compensate and slow down a bit. However if you brake and have throttle allready applied you just brake to the apex or a bit before that and than go off the brake and just add the throtle as much as possible - giving you max acceleration and just allowing you to follow the line perfectly. This is the fastest way to drive generally.
To allow this style you have to also adjust your setup - mainly the braking bias needs to be adjusted. As you always have some throtle you need to give more braking to the back to get the same effect of braking than before. Also that way you get more steering abillity on the front wheels as the braking is not as high as before and dosent eat up so much of the grip potential of the tires. GTL specific that means about 57% front brakes for front engined cars and about 53% for mid engined cars. I use about 1% lower still - it does depend on the car and track though.

Now to avoid doing this unrealistic thing and just do proper trail braking as real racers in these cars do, what you need to do on downshifting is to blip the throtle. It is same to heal/toe in real life, but due to having no autoclutch and having no clutch pedal I just add the throtle while braking without adding any clutch. Still here more rear bias brakes are best to go as again they allow you to add some extra grip on the front wheels while you have them minimally pressed. Usually you have the brakes pressed right to the apex or just before the apex - depends on the corner of course.
If you are too fast into the corner or are understeering into it you can than switch gear to early and dont blip so much and that way give more grip to the front and make the rear end slide a bit - that will help the turn in or you can get your car sideways into the corner to make it loose speed while being sideways right to the apex.

Now that was allready more how to negotiate turns than how to drive in the first place so to go more to the driving conected stuff and less to the no autoclutch connected things.

Original post was to long, so this will be four parts

Last edited by Pero_Grozni; 27 December 06 at 12:15.
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Unread 27 December 06, 00:01   #2
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Part 2

I have two base corner taking styles:
-A clean one which works for proper race cars
-A sideways one which works best for the less balanced cars and was the basic rallying style

Clean style is when you try and slide as little as possible.
The braking is quite late and almost right to the apex and after the braking you get only acceleration - no corrections with the pedals should happen. The way you should be driving in sims is to be on the brake hard and downshifting still while on the straight. To that you have minimal throtle and just add it a bit if needed because of the downshift. Coming into the corner you have less and less brake right to a bit before the apex and than you release the brake and keep the throtle. When you see that you can add the throtle you add it and the way it should be done is to only add the throtle after that and not release it because you misjudged it. At no moment of this you should be sideways - you can slide the car a bit, but not too much. Important is to not get the rear end out on the corner exit as that will really hurt the laptime.
This is usualy the fastest way to drive and works on most corners.

Sideways style is where you go sideways intentionaly to allow for a better corner exit and entry. Most usually this has to be done when it is slippery and if the car is not balanced as a basic form and likes to understeer or dosent want to put the power down while cornering.
The way to drive it is to brake quite hard and than get the car slightly sideways before the apex. You should make the car slide so that you will clear right near the apex and that the car will be turned more into the corner at the apex point than in the clean style. This way you can be late on the brakes and get the car sideways right to the apex - as the car is sideways it has allready turned and you should try to have it pointing to the straight allready at the apex. This way you can than dump more power from the apex on right to the exit of the corner and normally you should have a better exit speed than with the clean driving style. This will not work with long corners - it does work best with about 90 degrees corners. The car should be slideing from the entry to the apex and not slideing anymore after the apex - just accelerating at a less curved line than in the clean style.
This is what I prefer and try to drive it most of the time, but it is hard to pull it off perfectly all of the time and usually it is bad for the tires. But it is what is needed to get the best out of the V8 cars In GTL (Falcon, Cobra, TVR...)
It also works very well with the GT40 and even better with the Pantera. Especially the Pantera responds really well to the exit part of this style and you can really shoot out of corners with it this way - you have the throttle fully pressed, the steering wheel pointing straight and the car in a slight slide from the apex to the exit end ending the slide exactly on the kerb (usually upshift) and having max speed onto the straight.

As you can see I am always emphesising the max corner exit speeds. This is completly physics related - the saying slow in fast out has proper theory behind it. The way you should imagine it is - you have two portions to driving - braking and entry to the apex and accelerating from the apex onto the straight and going down the straight
Now if you compare the two you will notice that the driven distance in braking and entry to the apex is much shorter than in accelerating from the apex onto the straight and going down the straight. Now if you increase the speed in both by the same ammount you will gain much less time in braking and entry to the apex than in accelerating from the apex onto the straight and going down the straight.
If you than divide the track into sections you can than see what you should do at what part:
If there is a long straight and than a section of many corners without a long straight afterwards you should try and get the time while braking and with high cornerspeed (example could be much of the Nordschleife).
If there is a straight and than a hard corner and than a long straight you should brake earlyer and make sure to get a good line for a great exit(try to slide to the apex and flooring it out). This will allow for higher end topspeed on the straight and each meter of that straight you will be gaining time compared to getting time on the entry and having a slightly worse exit.
This is the case with many corners - Magny second corner, Parabolica...
Generally if you are not right on the fastest times this is what you should start doing - trying to get as good as possible exit speeds. It will really show on your laptimes. And to do this you will have to develop a good feel for the throttle which is one of the most imporatnt skills you will need in racing.
Remember - if you are way off the pace dont try and improve your entry - it will frustrate you trying to master it and it will be slower than proper exit anyway. So just try and get a good line to and after the apex to get a good exit.

Now - onto the corner combinations. This is what usually makes the difference on complex tracks like Imola. Imola is especially specific as you need to judge the entrys to combinations properly. Most people try and brake as hard as possible into the combinations and take the first corner as fast as possible. This will than make them get a bad line into the second corner and lose them time in the entry to the second corner and even worse completly ruin their exit speed out of the second corner. The way to do them is to take the first corner slower to allow you a good line to the second corner and have a great exit speed onto the straight. Most crucial on Imola is the first combination - here you should take it slow on the entry and than get the throtle down as fast as possible. The second chicane is the same - you should brake early, cut the first lefthander under lesser speed than possible and than floor it on the righthander, cut it a bit and get right onto the kerb on the exit.
In any case - the combinations should be taken the same as individual corners - if you have a straight after the combination you should go for a good exit and slower entry and if you have a longer section of corners coming up you should take the corners as fast as possible, but still keeping the right line into each corner. DO NOT BE TEMPTED to take one corner especially fast as that will ruin your complete combination and overall you will loose ages.

Now lines - most of you know what is the right racing line - it is quite simple - try and use as much road as possible so you have the highest possible radius in each corner and taking the shortest way possible in the same time. Basicly it is a compromise from both - shortes way means less track to drive and larger radius means higher possible speed. In the end that means that on the entry you go to the outisde of the track, than you go right to the apex and maybe even cut the track a bit and than go as wide as possible on the exit. In combinations it is a bit more complex, but normally what you should do is to touch each apex and have a good stable entry without too much moving about once in a combination.

Last edited by Pero_Grozni; 27 December 06 at 11:55.
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Unread 27 December 06, 00:03   #3
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Part 3

Corrections:
The styles described above all were based on the fact that you hit them perfectly, but as we all know that is virtually impossible to do. Practise will make you excecute them more accuratly, but it is very track related and hitting the styles perfectly on one track will not guarantee you being fast on another track with less practising. So it comes down to corrections to help you be fast without too much detailed practising. Not to mention that once you get into a close race you always have to use corrections.

Corections of the line while braking:
What you can get is either neutral handling, understeer or oversteer.
Neutral is usually what you want so no need to correct.
Oversteer is your helper while braking - it can help you out of many situations, but if it is unwanted you need a method to cope with it. Oversteer on braking can be fixed with adding throtle, countersteering (that goes without saying anyhow) and for some suprisingly brake. With the throtle you will change the load of the front and the rear end and will load the read end so will get more grip at the rear end. That way you will regain grip and reduce oversteer. With the brake you can however controll how much you go sideways. If you completly press it you will either go straight off or spin, depends how much sideways you allready are. If you add just enough brake however you can slow the ammount of the oversteer you are getting and also you can keep it at the same angle, until you slowed enough to negotiate the corner. This is especially handy if you braked too late, and throw the car sideways to help slowing it down and get it from understeering - trying to hit the apex. Doing that, you will be too fast into the corner and will go sideways off the track if you dont brake, if you can brake enough to keep the car pointing into the right direction and keep the brake on, to slow it down you just might acctually get through that entry faster than normally. It is tricky however. This brake controlled slideing also is handy if you are slideing and want to change direction. You allready have max. lock used up and to make the car turn the other way you add some brake to change the load of the front and the rear axle. If you do it with feel, the fronts will grip more and the car will change the slide to the other side - but you have to be quick on the countersteer to save that (that was allready more of a drifting tactic, but it can still be usefull while racing)
Onto the understeer while braking. It can happen due to the fact that you are fast or that you have too much braking on the front. If it is the braking you should brake less and that will help with the understeer. If you are too fast you are in trouble. What you should do is to throw the car from understeer into oversteer. The way to do this is to either let the brake up a bit and try and throw the car into the corner with the steering and adding some brake as soon as the front tires bite, or to turn the steering, going off the brake sightly and droping a gear or two very quickly to add the braking on the rear end - loading the front tires more and making the braking on the rear tires higher (taking away the max grip possible). This is however a bit dangerous and you should be prepared to catch the slide with countersteering and throtle bliping or right brake applying.
The crudest way to fix understeer while braking however is to use the handbrake - it works well in GTL, you just have to mapp it in the controller settings. I do use it from time to time while racing if I get it wrong and of course I use it for my 360's after the race.

Acceleration corrections
Understeer:
Basic one is to go off the throtle, but that is not desired as you will loose time. What you can do is what I allready described - shifting one gear up to just unsettle the back enough to get the rear sliding instead of the front. The other way of doing this if you are not high in the rews yet is to just press the clutch for a very short time to spin the tires enough to achive the same effect. The difference is that with the clutch you will loose a bit of time and with the upshift you wont as you already did the upshift that would have happened anyway.
One thing that happens often is that people add to much steering which couses the understeer in the first place - remember to use as little steering input as possible - sometimes the way to get wrid of the understeer is acctually to steer less (Escort, CSL)

Oversteer while accelerating.
Normally less throttle and countersteering will fix that. In extreme cases some brake will help catching the slide - again not much brake with countersteer and than after the speed has droped release the brake and straighten the wheel or countersteer in the oposite direction if you are not quick or accurate enough.
The other cure is upshift without throtle and to shortshift - sometimes on the exits of slow corners it is better to be in a higher gear and floor the throtle than to be carefull on the throtle in high rews and missing out on the right moment to put the power down. With shortshifting you acctually also save an upshift in the high range where you are droping more time than in the low range of the rews.

One more I like to use is to drop a gear to many into the corner right before the exit and than upshift on the apex for the exit. That way you get the extra braking you need, you get the better turn in and you get the good exit. You just have to be very carefull and quick with the shifts as the gear too low will make you spin if you have it too long or if you try and keep the car going it will slow you down too much. So what I do is really just to drop a gear to many right before the exit to get the fronts to follow the line I want and than change the gear up again for a good exit speed - possibly I floor the throtle during the upshift to get the added effect of the spinning wheel to help turn the car from understeer on the exit into slight oversteer on the exit.

Starts:
I am kinda proud of my starts - usually I am quickest off line - even in the quickest of fields. The trick is to get the power down as efficiently as possible. My way of doing things is to have medium to high rews on the start, having selected 1st gear and having the clutch pressed. As quickly as the lights turn green I drop the clutch and floor the throttle. Now depending on the car and gearing you can have three different things happening. Best is slight wheelspin to the usable rew range and than regaining grip and really taking off. That is the best option.
Second option is when you get lots and lots and lots of wheelspin and your car remains standing still. What you do is to immidiatly go off throtle to allow the car to regain grip and than floor it again. This is what usually happens with cars with more power so you have to be carefull. What however can and will happen is that your car dies after you have released the throtle to regain grip and you are accelerating slowly. In this case a swift press of the clutch will get your rews up again - slight whelspin and you are off. This is what I did tonight in Magny and it worked well. If you still dont get the rews up you should just press the cultch again, but really only for the shortest of time.
Same rule goes for when you almost stall the car off the line (extra long 1st gear - Escort in Bathurst). You press the clutch a few times (quick press, than slight delay and than again slight press) to get the wheels spinning enough to get your engine into the usable rew range.

Some guidelines on how to act while being lapped.
Many people make way too much effort to get out of the way. That usually is the main couse for any crash that is related to lapping crashes. The guy that is passing can visualise the car in front taking the racing line or going off the racing line in the opposite direction to where the leader is relative to the racing line. If the guy infront moves in the direction where the leader is now or somewhere off the racing line on the exit the two will crash.
I personally prefer the guys to perhaps slow slightly on the straight and move off the racing line a bit just to allow for a corect corner entry for both if possible (if the lapped guy is not in a battle), if I pass them on the braking they should keep on the racing line and maybe brake a bit more deeply if it gets tight on the apex. On exits of corners again keep the racing line if we are very close together and I am allready besides - otherwise the way to do it is not to go for a max wide exit - just leave enough room for 1.5 car on the outside of the exit for the guy that does the lapping to slip by. Remmember that most of the times the guy that is lapping makes the time difference on the exit so if you prevent him a good exit he might acctually not be able to pass safely. That is especially true when they are in the same car or in fact the lapped guy is driving a more powerfull car.
If possible I will always try and lapp people as quickly as possible, but if I see two guys in front that are batteling I will wait until I can pass in such a way that I dont disturb the battle, but most of time that is impossible as that brings the following guy so close that I could get passed, or I loose time in my chase for the guy infront (if chasing the guy infront is still possible).

Last edited by Pero_Grozni; 27 December 06 at 12:11.
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Unread 27 December 06, 00:05   #4
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Part 4

One quite bogus tip that really works wonders - Always keep your eyes on the next important bit of the track. That translates into the next thing:
You are on the straight and getting to the braking point. You are looking at the outer edge of the road at the distance where your braking point is (whatever you use for your braking point - table, tree, distance marker, road collor...). Once you get near to that point you change your view to the apex and you keep looking at the apex until you are almost there. After that you change your view to the exit point - you should be looking at the point which you want to cross - usually a kerb. Once getting close to that point you look at the straight... That will keep you focused to your line points you need to cross and will make it much easier for you to judge if you are going wide or not going wide.
That really really helps - especially on new tracks so try it out.

I wont really go into passing techniques - maybe later or someone else could cover those as I am not really great at them.

Anyhow - that is what I can think of ATM (took me well over 2 hours writing this : ) - hope it helps some of you out.

Cheers PG

Last edited by Pero_Grozni; 27 December 06 at 11:58.
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Unread 27 December 06, 00:24   #5
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Great stuff!!!

I'm with you when you say that you don't like to drive in a way that works in a sim but not in real life racing. :cool::

Since I've got my G25 i've been trying to race as realistic as possible. Using clutch on up and downshifts, braking with right foot and blipping throttle, etc. Being a "realism nutter" is a good excuse for being a bit slower, I guess.
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Unread 27 December 06, 01:06   #6
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:bowdown: An outstanding dissertation

I only have one slight problem; my brake only works if I completely take my foot off the throttle. If I so much as feather the throttle my brake becomes inactive! :OMG: I've sort of gotten used to it, it's been that way for 10 years : Perhaps I should get a new wheel and pedals but they are really solidly built out of metal with a pucka racing wheel. I'd kill a plastic wheel and pedals in one 24hr race at Le Mans or a single lap round the Nordschleife! :cool::

I earn't the nick name "Suckasareoff" because the wheel we used to race Crammond's GP1 with on the Atari used to be attached to a desk with suckers. And every time things got a bit hairy the guys I raced with - who were often in the ajoining smoking room - would here this extraordinary noise as the wheel was torn from the desk. My driving style has always been a bit manic even in the real world!

Last edited by snowy; 27 December 06 at 01:15.
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Unread 27 December 06, 11:31   #7
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Great post Pero - good tip about power-shifting to correct corner line. I will try it

You tips about chosing line could have come from the great Senna himself; I remember him saying exactly the same once when deciding which part of the corner/combination finds you most time.

One thing I would add from watching some of our fellow racers - is line, line and line. Even if you slow down your effort a little (especially on the brakes as P_G says); just keeping on line will reward you with a better times and less stress

Speaking for me; I just don't have the skills that the fast guys have, but am trying to get my times down by keeping it clean and finding a setup that helps me be smooth (even if it's not the quickest over one lap; the tyres will hold up for a race).
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Unread 27 December 06, 15:55   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterRST View Post
Great stuff!!!

Since I've got my G25 i've been trying to race as realistic as possible. Using clutch on up and downshifts, braking with right foot and blipping throttle, etc. Being a "realism nutter" is a good excuse for being a bit slower, I guess.
I'm with you here. Since getting my G25 I found myself a little slower than with my Momo but it feels so much better and more real. I use the clutch pedal, and the full 900 degrees of steering, I also started braking with my right foot.

When I first got GTL I felt that it wasn't quite as hard core as other sims like GTR and Nascar 2003, but with the G25 I found GTL feels the most real of them all, even better than GTR2. I'd gladly give up a little time on the track for the realistic feel I get from GTL and my G25.
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Unread 27 December 06, 16:03   #9
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I've gone the opposite way. Since I got my G25 I've been breaking all my PBs by a second or more after only 5 laps (using the shifter, clutch, 900deg rotation, another "realism nutter" :p ). It's mainly because I can keep my line much better through the corners.

I guess I never really got used to the small rotation of the black momo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowy
I only have one slight problem; my brake only works if I completely take my foot off the throttle. If I so much as feather the throttle my brake becomes inactive!
It sounds like you have the brake and throttle set to a single axis. You can split them in the Control Panel or Wingman Profiler (if you have a logitech).
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Unread 27 December 06, 16:06   #10
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:bowdown:
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Unread 27 December 06, 18:54   #11
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Thank you very much for taking the time to write this Pero - there is so much good info here that will help many of us.

How about making this thread a sticky?
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Unread 27 December 06, 20:24   #12
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:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Thank you very much Pero for this post, lots of tips in here that I should study very carefully!
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Unread 27 December 06, 21:10   #13
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Fantastic post Pero, many thanks!

Amazing to think you can draw on that vast well of knowledge, huge bag of tricks, within tenths or hundredths of a second while entering a corner sideways! :

One Question:

Why have such a high steering lock (30.5 degrees) but such a low steering sensitivity (40%)?

At first glance it seems contradictory. :sherlock:
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Unread 27 December 06, 21:26   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psyfungi View Post
One Question:

Why have such a high steering lock (30.5 degrees) but such a low steering sensitivity (40%)?

At first glance it seems contradictory. :sherlock:
Steering sensitivity is the linearity of the response of the front wheels to the steering wheel input.

50% sensitivity will give exactly linear response; ie x-degrees of steering wheel lock will turn the front wheels y-degrees throughout the full range of lock.

Less than 50% will make the steering less sensitive, ie slower to respond, over the first part of the steering lock, and more than 50% will make the steering more sensitive over this first part of lock. In the options screen move the slider to 0% and 100% and turn the wheel to see how the steering response changes.

I cannot imagine that anyone would ever want more than 50% sensitivity as it would make the car feel very nervous in a straight line.

I guess that Pero feels the need to make the steering a little less sensitive around the straight-ahead position because he is running such a lot of lock to catch all of those slides that he likes so much .
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Unread 27 December 06, 21:28   #15
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Well it isnt really contradictory.
Steering sensitivity is how sensitive the wheel is. The less sensitivity you add the less angle you will get on the beginning of the wheel turn, but than it will compensate for that once you get to the end of the wheel turn. The steering input from you can be linear, but the output into the game will be nonlinear - progressive.
50% is fully linear steering, higher is more added angle at the beginning than at the end. I use 40% in GTL as my wheel only has 180 degrees so it is quite sensitive than in the middle and for the accuracy I chose against having it fully linear.
It dosent matter what your sensitivity is - you alway will get the steering lock you set in the setup of the car when you will turn the wheel fully.
I use high steering lock to be able to controll the car in any situation. As I drive sideways a lot I need to have lots of lock not to spin.
The higher steering lock you use the more degrees the car wheels will turn in the same ammount of your wheel turn. In a way that makes the steering more direct, but it is a much different function than the wheel sensitivity in the controller settings.
Somehow I cant find a good description of it - mathematicly it is very simple to understand however.

EDIT: Joel did a much better job - and he also naild the reason I use less than linear steering.
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Unread 27 December 06, 21:30   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel View Post
...I cannot imagine that anyone would ever want more than 50% sensitivity as it would make the car feel very nervous in a straight line.
Wow! I thought it was something like that. I'd better check my wheel and game manuals again - I'm running 24 degrees at 100% sensitivity! My reaction times have improved!!! :
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Unread 27 December 06, 21:36   #17
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Oi - quickly reduce the sensitivity to 50% and your lock to above 30 degrees.
You should feel great that way if you were using 100% sensitivity.
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Unread 27 December 06, 21:56   #18
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Pero I was waiting for this.
First off thanks for sharing your knowledge. Alot of people would just scoff at people asking but you share it so that's cool.

This is what I do at the mo.
I am using my xmas aquired Logitech DFP.
I have my steering set at 900 degrees (seeing as that's what tha wheel is capable of) and am glad tha momo was sold out because 240 is jus no good at all! 900 degrees allows for more analog sweep and more precise steering.
240 degrees turns too quick and I often over correct a mistake.

I don't have a clutch but I only use one foot even tho I have one spare.
This will teach me proper technique and not lead to bad habits for when I upgrade...maybe...maybe I won't. I only want tha G25 for it's H-shifter and clutch pedal. Not too bothered about tha slippery wheel.

further help please
So, as for setup degrees lock what exactly does this do?
I originally thought it was max setting for wheel but it isn't, that's found under calibration on windows desktop.
Could you help with "Castor" to? what is this?

P.s. Pero I have found since turning speed sens steering down I now get a little bit of delay when turning fast for corrections, drifts etc.
My turning sens was set at 50% anyways so it's not caused by that.
Oh and I have 75% FFB now too, better on straights but you can feel bumps on the road which vanish below 70%. 100% is too strong even with the DFP's single motor and it turns on it's own if you let it go on a stand still which is anoying for late grid starters.

Thanks Pero, much appreciated. Will take a while to digest as I still need to get used to my wheel.
I've now got used to knowing where it is in a turn as to begin with I was looking on screen but cockpit wheel not in sync so I've now got used to feeling the wheel as I turn and not be too gentle with it.
I used to spin out from not pulling it back out from the corner hard enough and letting the car continue it's path.

Practice makes perfect I guess.
I didn't become a grade 6 bassist over night...still got two more grades to go.
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Unread 27 December 06, 22:52   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kongo View Post
This is what I do at the mo.
I am using my xmas aquired Logitech DFP.
I have my steering set at 900 degrees (seeing as that's what tha wheel is capable of) and am glad tha momo was sold out because 240 is jus no good at all! 900 degrees allows for more analog sweep and more precise steering.
240 degrees turns too quick and I often over correct a mistake.
I also use a DFP. I have it set to 540 degrees; ie three-quarters of a turn of lock in each direction. This is the most that I can comfortably use without having to take my hands off the wheel to add more lock. I do however take my hand off the wheel to change gear, using the sequential shifter (with auto-clutch).

I have it set at 50% sensitivity, 0% speed sensitivity, and most of my setups use the full 34.5 degrees of steering lock. I have full ffb effects at 75% strength.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kongo View Post
further help please
So, as for setup degrees lock what exactly does this do?
I originally thought it was max setting for wheel but it isn't, that's found under calibration on windows desktop.
Could you help with "Castor" to? what is this?
Steering lock in the car setup is simply how far the front wheels can turn. More lock will allow the car to turn a tighter radius.

Castor is an element of the steering geometry, and is a very complex subject. In GTL you can only change the castor angle, which is a two-dimensional projection of a three-dimensional system comprising castor angle, castor trail, kingpin inclination and kingpin offset.

In very simplistic terms this is angle of the pivot that the wheel rotates about when you steer (castor is viewed from the side of the car, kingpin is viewed from the front). More castor will have the effect of adding more centring effect on the steering (which should make the steering feel heavier to turn) and will also add more negative camber to the outer wheel as you add more lock (and also reduce negative camber in the inner wheel). This last effect, known as camber-gain, is something that can be used to your advantage as it allows you to use less static negative camber (ie your wheels are more upright, giving you a good contact patch when your wheels are pointing straight), but adds the camber you want when you turn by banking both wheels in towards the turn (similar to a bicycle leaning into a turn, but much much less). The downside to this, in real life at least, is that it can make the steering very heavy. This is one of the reasons why modern cars, even the smallest of shopping trolleys, has power steering, because the current trend is to take advantage of this camber gain.

I do not know to what extent these effects are modelled in GTL.
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Unread 27 December 06, 23:42   #20
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Thanks Joel.
I forgot to say i use the sequencial shifter too. Have done from the start and planned to too.
In having the wheel i found the paddles to be even more boring to use to shift than I thought...and they are more like shoulder buttons than paddles.
I have the left one set to lights as it would be behind the wheel of a real car in the UK that is.

I though most u guys use G25.
Great to see some people think the DFP still cool and Pero using a dated one really does add to "personal preference" like how I prefere the Yamaha RBX170to the newer RBX 270 (these are bass guitars and very cheap too...VERY!).
I like em cause they cheap, underated and if it gets stolen / broken I can buy a new one.
Still I've had it for 5 years and with my heavy handedness it's fine...
Sorry off topic but jus my view on old vs new / expensive in a term I do know about.

Talking about heavy handidness, how long can this wheel last?
I ain't doing what someone said in a public race once and turning FFB off. That's the reason I got a FFB wheel!!!
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Unread 29 December 06, 13:09   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel View Post
Steering sensitivity is the linearity of the response of the front wheels to the steering wheel input.

50% sensitivity will give exactly linear response; ie x-degrees of steering wheel lock will turn the front wheels y-degrees throughout the full range of lock.

Less than 50% will make the steering less sensitive, ie slower to respond, over the first part of the steering lock, and more than 50% will make the steering more sensitive over this first part of lock. In the options screen move the slider to 0% and 100% and turn the wheel to see how the steering response changes.

I cannot imagine that anyone would ever want more than 50% sensitivity as it would make the car feel very nervous in a straight line.

I guess that Pero feels the need to make the steering a little less sensitive around the straight-ahead position because he is running such a lot of lock to catch all of those slides that he likes so much .
Personnally, I use a 100% steering sensitivity. I've got the Momo wheel. I've noticed that under 100% I can't handle my car 'naturally' I mean I can't get the same sensation or reflex than with my own real car. Of course I know there's nothing to compare between my own car and GTL cars, and I'm talking about steering feeling combined with my personnal way to drive in general. If I set my wheel under 100% the car won't react as I would expect. I've also set the neutral to a very minimum %. The first time I set the wheel at 100% sensitivity, I obviously ran in zig-zags even at gear 1 and low speed (in the pits for instance). But rapidly, I noticed that it forced me to hold the wheel like I do in real life, in order to handle the car correctly. Finally I've noticed that now I can drive and handle the car well, giving slight corrections when driving straight for example or I can get the right reaction I've expected in turns. Of course, I'm no perfect driver, and it doesn't prevent me from mistakes while driving! I just mean that the 100% sensitivity setting makes me get better driving feeling, it's more comfrotable to me in a way.

Well I guess settings in a general way a first a question of personnal taste. I think there is kinda academic way to drive, common to everyone, the basic knowedge in a way. And then with time, they are as many way of driving as there are drivers on Earth! :p

EDIT : After a few tweaks in my steering wheel setup, I tuned my wheel sensitivity to 68%. Indeed, in the controller FFB menu I've noticed that the effect selected was a basic one which was 'Joystick'. Then I selected a specific effect, Momo Force, and then I realised that 100% sensitivity was really too much as you said! :p

Last edited by SuperPask; 13 January 07 at 11:55.
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Unread 29 December 06, 23:33   #22
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That really is great of you Pero...there are still some nice guys in teh world besides me!

I wish i could give your post a [+] Great job!!!!
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Unread 1 January 07, 12:20   #23
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thanks Pero threads like these really help a newbie (like me) learn games like GTR and GTL
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Unread 10 January 07, 11:17   #24
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superb article, thanks Pero.
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Unread 14 January 07, 21:42   #25
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Great write up.
This has been very helpful for me in understanding how/why to use the GH setups and no auto clutch, and get it to work fast without spinning every time I hit the brakes.
I am 3 secs a lap quicker now around Spa GP with, I hope, more to come
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Unread 7 February 07, 22:45   #26
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Thanks very much, Pero. You've helped me out in the past and I'm only a semi-reular presence here. I'm very grateful.

Can anyone "translate" Pero's wheel and in-game settings settings for the G25?
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Unread 8 June 07, 10:55   #27
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Let's revive this thread..............Pero has been very kind and been trying to show me how to drive :p Heeby wants to know where my starts come from

Following (ish) Pero there is an obvious time make-up he has - it's corner exit speed. I feel I carry good speed into corners (probably have to wait too long to get the power on.......) - P_G almost always (especially slow/technical corners) can cruise past me on the next straight (good example was the Caspar/P_G crash at Cadwell - P_G picks up so much extra speed...........:p)

Would love to know what the trick is P_G - even a sliding car doesn't slow you down; for me it often means a little lift here and there.

Anyone who has watched a P_G lap will notice that on corner entry he often ties the car in knots (he's just mucking around ) and it has NO EFFECT on exit speed.

Starts:

Pretty simple really.............

#1 - Start like you mean it - I mean this is the start of the RACE not just getting the wheels turning

#2 - Steady revs at the count-down (different revs depending on the car)

#3 - Have a plan for various scenarios with the cars in front (assume they will all get away slower than you)

#4 - Watch the counter for the smallest flicker (don't breathe!) & GO!

#5 - Hold just enough wheelspin to keep the tyres giving max forward drive. I often let rip as the clutch goes out and then feather back slightly to hold the wheelspin until I can put the pedal hard down

#6 - Use your plan to make sure you don't have to lift off even a fraction (yards can be lost here)
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Unread 8 June 07, 12:01   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post

Would love to know what the trick is P_G - even a sliding car doesn't slow you down; for me it often means a little lift here and there.

Anyone who has watched a P_G lap will notice that on corner entry he often ties the car in knots (he's just mucking around ) and it has NO EFFECT on exit speed.
What the trick is - I concentrate myself on getting as good as possible exit in every corner where this makes a huge difference.
What that means is that sometimes I have lower mid corner speed and have a different line to get on the throttle as much as possible and as quickly as possible. After that I try to follow the advice of Jackie Stewart - once you get on the throttle you dont let go anymore. Keeping focused on that makes you much more accurate on adding throttle and when to add the throttle as you start to realise just how often you reduce your throttle to correct your line. Each that reduction means you loose loads of time as you loose on your exit speed.
The second part of my exits are also they way I approach that kind of corners. I try and make the exit trajectory/line as straight as possible to be able to put down as much power as possible. Very often having the tail slightly sideways past and after the apex acctually allows you to use that to it's fullest and that is why I am quick although being sideways.
In any case - mostly my good exits come from me taking the corner in such a way to get the optimum exit. I change my line, reduce speed midcorner, take first part of the combination slower... just to get the most straight exit line out of the corner onto the following straight.
As far the beforementioned sliding out of corner goes - I try to hold it as smoothly as possible as that will give you great acceleration. If you try and fight it and try to kill the slide quickly you will loose lots of time as after the slide you will get understeer and will have to adjust your line and speed to keep on the road. I much rather keep the slide going, and slowly reduce the opposite lock to get the car right onto the kerb when you stop sliding. This could well be understood as 4 wheel drifting which is so often mentioned in relation to GPL.

As far as entries go - most of time the way you brake has nothing to do with your exit speeds. It is the way you decide on your line and what speed/state of driving you will have on the apex, which defines your exit speed. Very often my mucking about acctually gives me better exit speed as I get the car into the slide before the apex, get it pointing as much into the direction of the following straight as possible and in end result can get on the throttle much earlier. GTL cars mostly are understeering pigs - they need to be mucked about with on the entry to make it turn to hit the apex.
Like I described in my original post - it is much better to have oversteer as understeer, because oversteer you can controll and be quick, understeer however only means that you have to lift off to regain your line.
That is why I intentionally throw the car sideways, than controll the sideways motion to get my apex/line just right and than put as much power down as possible.
It works great with some cars and with some it dosent work so well. GTC65 is perfect for this - maybe the only two exceptions are the Alpine and the Elan.
The rest - this is the way to drive them.

My simple advice is - get into a Ferrari (great fun for this sort of things) and start thinking exitspeeds, not going off the throttle(that means that once you pressed your throttle the only way to go is to give more throttle - never less) after you started going on it and as straight line as possible out of corners. And go into Imola and practise it as much as possible.
Soon you will realise that you need to readjust your line and speed and also get your car a bit sideways to be able to get all these things right.
The best reward than is when you need to brake out of corners in order to not hit the man infront as you are so much quicker than him (of course I failed to do that properly last time out with Caspar - sorry again).

If you like we can get together as we did yesterday and I can show you the lines and the possible exit speeds - I am sure you will soon understand just what I mean.

Cheers PG :p
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Unread 8 June 07, 12:11   #29
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So true - I know this deep down. It is hard for many of us to repeat a "drifting" technique lap after lap with falling off the road a few times

Something to work on I know - it's the same idea as my start advice (make sure you don't lift off for anything - you lose yards). There are several corners on many tracks where I am waiting and waiting to get back on the power.............watching the seconds tick away from my lap time.

This explains why some cars put us all closer together (Elite will be one) - it's a different technique (although not entirely different).

Your advice - when you analyse it - is not too far different from a classic four wheel drift technique (think Stirling Moss - not a modern drifter ) - get the car angled before the corner, aim it as if to take a line that would appear to be way too tight and use drift and control of yaw to take the corner. Hard to do...........
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Unread 8 June 07, 12:25   #30
Pero_Grozni
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That Stirling Moss advice is exactly what I mean.
As far as modern drifting (as in D1...) goes - that is another thing alltogether again.

As far as repeating the technique goes - one word "LOCK"

You know exactly what I mean - you need as much steering lock in the settings as possible to have the confidence to save any slide if you get it wrong. You rearly use it to its max, but you know that it is there and will get you out if you overdo it or the tires start to give in.

As far as Elite goes - I will skip this race as I have our second Drift competition on this sunday. Also I wouldnt have enjoyed it anyway as I dislike cars like that as you know (probably down to the fact that you cant drive them like this).
BTW: I reckon I learned this the most with our races in RT. If you think of any of my replays you will soon remmember how I was driving than (again it was done to negate the understeer and to get good exit speeds).

Maybe a thing to do is to go out drifting on an interesting track - you follow me around and try to copy my entry and controll the slides.
Once you start thinking about having the car sideways before the corner entry because of drifting you will see a whole new world of getting the car sideways on the brakes/flicking. Than you soon see how you can combine that with remaining on the line.
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Unread 8 June 07, 12:31   #31
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Ok - we'll hook up one day for some lessons :wave:

Maybe a whole lot of No-Grippers doing Ducks & Drakes in a line behind P_G
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Unread 8 June 07, 13:47   #32
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I can see it now...

Double Drift is dead, we enter the era of Triple/Quadruple/Quintuple/Sextuple Drift!
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Unread 8 June 07, 20:19   #33
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Can I get permission to start compiling this thread into a tidied-up, spell-checked PDF or something?
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Unread 8 June 07, 20:52   #34
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I've got a 2 pedal setup so use the clutch from a on/off wheel button.

The default clutch sensitivity is something like 30% and I found bumping it right up to something like 80% really helps my starts.
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Unread 8 June 07, 21:05   #35
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Sure psy - as far as I am concerned you can make a proper PDF out of this if you like.
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Unread 13 June 07, 20:38   #36
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I tell ya man, since being a member of the GTL league and especially after I got my wheel I've slowly but surely learned alot racing you guys. It's like NGR is in a league of it's own *ahem* I mean I now keep up with the fast dudes on Gamers-crib and 10T and stuff but when I race on Sundays the best I can do is 10th I believe it was...
Seriously it's stupid when I get lapped by the aliens, I try to keep up but BAM yous gone again!

Jus goes to show the age old sayin' doesn't it:

"To be the best you've got to learn from the best"

Of course being the best we all know is impossable. Jus like being perfect, it considers everything.
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Unread 13 June 07, 21:42   #37
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It pays off running with our resident aliens pulling the pack along - thanks guys :wave:

My first races I couldn't see the front of the grid and kept falling off the road. Race experience has moved me a little closer to the front pace - still got some time to make up; and it's getting harder to find.

I think it has a lot to do with belief......when you run by yourself, or with people of a similar level it's easy to think "that's it - that's the limit". With aliens around you have to keep asking "how do I get faster?"
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Unread 14 June 07, 20:39   #38
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Exactly. You see, if you race people of similar or lesser level you eventually un-learn and form bad habit's because your times the best but...it's not YOUR best.
When I see all of your silly times I push harder and harder 'til I get a little higher.

Jus check out the old replays, the one with GTC-65 @ Istanbul (Not constantinople ) and you'll see that I always smashed my car up and trundled across the finish line...if that even.

I want to revisit our old races, I missed Tsukuba, my first league race, last sunday...
I wanna run Suzuka again but...them "Murder Curbs" are silly...
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Unread 19 June 07, 12:17   #39
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Jackie Stewart has a saying. "Never ever push the gaspedal, 'till you're sure that you don't have to lift off".

Still, I know that Senna and others used to tap the throttle constantly thru the corners (midcorner), in order to keep the car on the limit of adhesion. Schumacher on the other hand, keept his foot down. Really there is a film on you tube explaining the difference between Jonny Herberts and Schumachers drivingstyles. Herbet did the tap dance and lifted off much more then schumacher. Schumi did a small lift and very progessivly put the foot down again. When you looked on thier steering traces on the other hand. You saw that herbert was smoth with the steering, while schumi constantly was correcting slides. Anyways, what style do you use?
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Unread 19 June 07, 12:28   #40
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This video is a good example of Sennas throttle style. Watch the foot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAwJs...elated&search=
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Unread 12 March 08, 19:47   #41
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i have a problem. My throttle only works in full on, or full off, so I can't take corners as I want to and i cant afford a new wheel? What to do!
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Unread 17 March 08, 20:01   #42
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Ihave bought a perfect Logitech Force Feedback EX wheel&pedals for 30 euros...
They are available secondhand, which I used.

Online secondhand stuff is very usefull if you're on a budget.
30 euros is about 20 pound sterling. Suggest, give it a try
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Unread 17 March 08, 20:04   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willowjoe View Post
i have a problem. My throttle only works in full on, or full off, so I can't take corners as I want to and i cant afford a new wheel? What to do!
You can also check out the potmeters from the pedals. Detach the pedalunit, look for the pots. Put some contactspray in it. Attach everything to each other again. Press the pedals a few times, and test if the problem's gone.
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Unread 18 March 08, 11:38   #44
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What is your steering wheel/pedal model? Do you have analog or digital pedals?

With digital (on/off) pedals I think you only have an option to tap the pedal and control the throttle by frequency and length of the taps. (like driving with keyboard) You can try to mimic the AI. (if you have watched how AI controls the gas) But that may not be very comfortable

With analog pedals you might get this effect as well when your settings are badly off. Check the options/controllers page in GTL menus. Press the pedals and see how the throttle slider moves, then adjust sensitivity and deadzone. Repeat until happy.

-Jukka
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Unread 13 July 08, 16:15   #45
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A couple of observations after reading this thread --

Rolling is always faster than sliding. Use audio clues (turn up the tire volume if necessary) to tell what stage of grip the tires are at. Four-wheel drift is simply a demonstration of a well balanced machine and sensitive driver. More throttle = wider line. It is still faster to roll through the corners than to slide through them.

Sliding (drifting or braking) abuses the tires. When they overheat they get very slippery and you will either spin out or overshoot on braking. You don't need a long race to smoke the tires, just driving a little beyond the limit will do it quickly.

Left foot braking can help keep the car balanced, it also allows you to keep some throttle on and the revs up a bit. Especially useful for esses and turns that don't require shifting.

Passing: Stick to your racing line unless your opponent is significantly faster than you. If some one wants to pass you they have to earn it. On the other hand, if you are being lapped get the hell out of the way. Follow your opponent closely and look for his weaknesses and slow spots. Everyone gets nervous when there is a car right on their tail. Keep the pressure on and wait for a mistake.
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Unread 25 August 08, 05:07   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoomie View Post
It sounds like you have the brake and throttle set to a single axis. You can split them in the Control Panel or Wingman Profiler (if you have a logitech).


Would you mind elaborating on this? I use a Logitech Driving Force wheel and pedals setup, becauce I have not yet been able to afford myself the expensive of a G25. My pedals also apparant only work in single axis, and I'd like to know how exactly I can change that in CP if I can at all, who knows with this old wheel. Not like I can complain, considering it was free.
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Unread 27 August 08, 08:15   #47
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In Control Panel / Game Controllers / Properties, you should be able to select/deselect an option called "Report Combined Axis" or something similar. Unchecking this option will allow you to operate the pedals independently.

If the option is not available, you probably don't have the Logitech driver/profiler software installed, and you should install that first (first unplug the wheel before you install it!).
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Unread 29 August 08, 03:35   #48
markspeed
 
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Location: San Diego, California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redi View Post
In Control Panel / Game Controllers / Properties, you should be able to select/deselect an option called "Report Combined Axis" or something similar. Unchecking this option will allow you to operate the pedals independently.

If the option is not available, you probably don't have the Logitech driver/profiler software installed, and you should install that first (first unplug the wheel before you install it!).


There was no option for it in control panel. However, I found some software for it. Wingman software which works on my old wheel. I tried it out and it works quite well. I even discovered that the forcefeedback still works too. I thought maybe it had worn out. While it does feel like it's a bit worn out, it certainly has lots of feedback. Really strong feedback too. I had to reset the level to 50% cause it felt just a little bit too strong.

It also seems to have improved my laptimes. I noticed while testing it out at Istanbul that my times started falling almost immediately. Being able to feel more about what's going on with the tires explains that no doubt. And it's not just quicker times, but they're also more consistent.


I should be able to have a lot more fun now.
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Unread 29 August 08, 08:50   #49
The Stig
 
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I should be able to have a lot more fun now.
And isn't that what it's all about?
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Unread 19 October 08, 20:09   #50
CarpenterJC
 
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Thanks for sharing...having just gotten into running GTL I can sure use these tips and advice..Much appreciated.

JC
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