Realism

[JoshuaB]

I like this game alot, but im not sure how realistic it is to drive.

Dont get me wrong, i think it is one of the most realistic games ive ever played. But i like the whole Gran Turismo Playstation series aswell, and i see people flaming that all over these forums. I thought it was a pretty good game.

i think GTR2 feels more realistic to me, but i dont like the fact that the cars are all super death cars in GTR2 and i like in GTL that the cars are more realistic ( meaning i could see myself getting my hands on one of these cars long before one of those GTR2 cars. )

i think it may be the fact that the GTR2 cars have way more power, that is why i think i find it more realistic on the gas and in the corners.. more throttle sensitivity i guess you could call it.

whats everyone else opinion on it all?

[snowy]

It's incredible how people's perceptions of what a car feels like to drive are so infinitely varied! There is no doubt that some people perceive GT Legends as a realistic simulation and others perceive GTR2 as an acurate reproduction of what it's like to drive a modern race car. Fact is they are simulations, they are not real! But Gran Tourismo is just pure fantacy!

[vrmx]

Originally Posted by snowy

But Gran Tourismo is just pure fantacy!

Yep, you seem to bash it quite much even though you can't even spell the name .

I say this again that GT4 feels great with G25 while sweeping down the old Nürb :cool:.

No comment on anything else...

[JoshuaB]

well to add to that Nurburgring comment (sorry dont know the spelling) In my opinion, Gran Turismo's version of the Nurburgring is the best ive ever come across. Even in GTL here, the track doesnt seem nearly wide enuff. Ive never been on it personally, but have seen many videos, and i dont think GTL does it justice.

[lowndes888]

Honestly, I've never played GTL (can't find it anywhere in my country) but I've played GTR2 and I think it's the best racing simulation out there. And all the people saying bad things about Gran Turismo. I bet they never tried the game. It may not be a hardcore simulation like GTR2 but it's variety of cars, tracks and other options make it one of the best simulation for the PS2 and one of the few that can be compared with GTR2. And JoshuaB is right. The Nurburgring on GT4 is the best version so far in a racing simulator.

[David Wright]

The Ring in GTL is based on a conversion of the Ring in GPL, which is how the track was in 1967. Although many GPL tracks are too wide, they did get the Ring's width right - 8 m. I don't know if the Ring was widened at some point later on (must check it out on Google Earth). However, the field of view used has a big effect on the perception of width, so I'd be wary of judging width from a video game

[SuperPask]

Well I think that, to make one's self-opinion on realism, several parameters should be studied before starting comparison. I'll just give my own opinion here, and of course I don't pretend it is the right truth. I'm gonna just talk from my own feelings and experience - after all, everyone is different so that's why there are so many opinions on this topic Also, even if I've been seriously into car simulation for about a year (mainly offline, just joined NoGrip in December), I've been interested in simulation in general for many years now, particularly in flight simulation (Flight Simulator, IL2 Forgotten Battles, Pacific Fighters...).

First of all, GTL and GTR2 don't gather the same types of cars. The rides in GTL are old ones, many could be slightly closer to 'Mr Everyone's car', whereas in GTR2 you got hyper-sophisticated cars, runnings like rockets. So, about driving feeling, I guess it is tough to compare these 2 games. Even if, obviously, it can be just a matter of taste.

About GTR2/GTL and Gran Turismo, you should keep in mind that they work on different hardware : the first 2 ones on PC, the latter on PS2, which is a console. Here also, I think that first it would a matter of taste, of what you are looking for in a car game. Personnally, I find Gran Turismo series a bit too directed towards arcade-like driving. I haven't tried GT4 so I won't give any opinion about it. But I remember when GT1 had been released. And I remember the difference at that time : it really looked like a simulator compared to other games on PS1. But I remember that the gameplay, the feeling, etc was close to the arcade spirit in the long run. Why? Well I guess the answer is simple : people playing console games aren't the same than the ones playing on PC. They expect, in general way, different things. And marketing sharks have understood that of course!

Talking about graphics, difference between track versions : here again the hardware is different, and so graphics technologies are. This is due to electronics, but also about your own vision. Indeed, if you play a console game, you watch it on a TV screen, which got visual settings (resolution, colors, the way the picture is displayed etc) that are different from a PC screen. Also, on a console, you are sitting in your sofa, most of the time at a certain distance from the pictures displayed. On a PC, you are sitting at your desk, and your sight is closer to the monitor. That could explain different vision feelings.

I agree, in any case this will always remain simulation software, so you will always be as close to real as possible, but it can't be as good as real. If you want to know how it feels riding a Corvette, well go and drive one will give you the best. I guess the game hardware is important too in order to make one's opinion about the quality of a game. The more accurate a steering wheel is the closer you get to reality in a car simulation. I've personnally started with a rumble gamepad and recently got the Logitech Momo wheel and I can tell you that I saw the difference!

A good gear - here again it's matter of taste and money - can make our game more accurate. I give you a personnal example, nothing to do with cars, but with simulation though : I had played flight sims alot with a Microsoft Sidewinder joystick. It was very fine, I really enjoyed it this way. Last year I changed to another joystick, a HOTAS (Hands On Throttle And Stick) system, the Saiteck X52. I tell you what, it was like I was born again, lol! And I guess that it'll be the same feeling again if someday I can sit in a flight sim cockpit. I won't have to tweak and push buttons with mouse, or have a look to my flight instruments on my monitor, I 'll just watch the scenery on my screen, and operate in the cockpit like in real! Dream on, lol! I've seen such gear and this is bluffing! I've seen how it goes in several exhibitions (including car simulations too) and it's sure that the better your hardware is (and the richer you are in some cases!) the better you feel with your sim. And sure it will be the same feeling if smeday I change from Momo wheel to the G25.

Well I guess everyone has his own opinion about realism, and there are as many anwsers to this question as there are humans on Earth! What I can personnally say as a conclusion is that GTL and GTR2 are two fabulous sims, close together because of the way they are made, the gameplay etc, but also complementary (excuse my French, I don't if you say this word in English!) because they are in two different times in car racing history.

And whatever you think, don't forget the main thing : have fun and pleasure!!!

[lowndes888]

I totally agree with you SuperPask. These are simply two different games and can't be compared.

[Kongo]

I love GTL and I also Love GT4. There, I said it!
I ain't gonna compare them because they are like black and white.

GTL I started last April time and loved it first off because of it's cockpit view, something I hadn't experienced in a recer since the 32X (Anyone remember em?) playing Virtual Racing by SEGA.
I then noticed it's realism and difficulty and realised that GT4 isn't quite "The Real Driving Simulator" it claims to be.

That said, I love GT4 and having a DFP now I can use it to play GT4 too.
I love GT4 because you can drive almost any car in almost any form. Road going, road going with a bit more power (Computer chip, peformance exhaust etc.), Street racer (as before but with Turbo added, without the stickers and chav body kits) and then right up to pro racer (Gears, suspension, roll bars, stripped ect.) and I love the way that it does represent it simple enough with driving a road going car having alot of body roll round corners and nose diving with a press of the brakes.

It does, however lend to arcades because of the audience aimed at.
PSX, PS2 and even PS3 folk are not gonna like GT with this (GTL) level of difficulty are they? But then if they did Sony would profit wouldn't they? Y'know, Pad / wheel sales would shoot up if you know what I mean (SMASH!!!).

As for GTR2 I like Pask's comment. GTL is "Mr. Everybody" and that's why I like it. Hell, cars from this era are parked right outside my house and I love seeing em too. A mkI Cortina is within eye view from my window with a Triumph Herald next to it. A Dodge Diplomat round the corner and a Commodoor Mercury (Boy it's one HUGE station wagon as they call em in yankville) and a Triumph Dolomite jus a bit further down. OK so some of these are straying away but still...

GTR2 is from cars that I'll NEVER get to drive and I have not much love for em either...Played the Demo, changed gears way too quick with ease. I like feeling the car SCREAM up to it's max revs then change, these (GTR2) cars jus bounce of the clock too fast.

Still, each to thier own. Not everyone drives a Ford do they?
My point exactly.

[JoshuaB]

I agree with most of what you guys are saying aswell. I wasnt tryin to compare Gran Turismo with these games, just saying i liked it. I do wish though that GTL had a feature like Gran Turismo has, where we could buy everyday cars, and supe them up to race, Roll cages, Turbos, Suspension, all that like Kongo was saying.

I guess the only thing dont really like about GTL is somthing to do with the power,, i dont really know how to explain it, and maybe im wrong, but the power off seems to be done well. Letting off the gas really pounds the nose of most of these cars into the ground. But the power on, doesnt seem to have the same effect, to me anyways. When i slam the gas on, the car either slowly (with grip) speeds up, or quickly (without grip, lol) spins out, and i find getting the back end of these cars out a little bit, alot harder to do then i believe it should be.. there seems to be waaayyy too fine a line between sliding, and spinning out.

again, i know its a matter of perception, and maybe the gear im useing. BTW im useing a Momo force feedback wheel aswell.

and also, im not use to track racing :cry: im just judging it from a street driving perspective, so maybe it has somthing to so with that aswell.

cant wait to get out to Mosport this summer...!!!

[fpol]

Nice thread which seems to bring out the long replys…

I haven’t played GT4 but GT3 brought me back to driving sims in late 2001 after a few years off. That said, I thought it was pretty good on simulation mode – thought the AI was atrocious and damage model unrealistic. It gave a good ‘general’ representation driving and real driving techniques could be used and refined if one so chose. As a street car ‘sim-mid/game’ GT4 really needs to support an H-shift and clutch though.

Between GTL and GTR2 I really think the preference largely comes down to vehicle preference not accuracy. Most of the guys I know who do trackdays/autocross prefer GTL since it is closer to their real cars. GTL does more things like my own track car –body roll, slower shifting, and weaker braking are much closer in GTL to even a fairly hardcore streetcar converted to a trackcar.

Comparing the GTR2 cars you have high downforce and modern suspencsion (double adjustable 4 way shocks were a dream in the 60’s/early 70s) For example, at the end of a long straight, by the time you lift from throttle and press the brakes you’ve lost enough speed to immediately shift down at least one gear. To my knowledge this is pretty accurate for downforce cars which lose huge amounts of speed just on lift throttle.

In GTL, with much less downforce, and significantly weaker brakes, braking is more of a deliberate affair – long brake, blip, shift, more long brake, blip, shift, etc. Most say the older cars without electronics are ‘harder’, personally I find the GTR2 cars harder to hold on the very edge than the GTL cars which have a much wider falloff than the GTR2 cars, but have just so much more room for recovery.

To the first post – GTR2 cars, especially GT cars (as opposed to GT2 or G2/some G3) are pure race cars. These are largely silhouette racecars. The NGT on the other hand are perhaps the finest example of what a road car could be if AC/noise dampening/bump dampening i.e. and vestiges of comfort – were not required. Personally a GT3 RSR as found in GTR2 is heaven to me. Pure, precise, and dedicated to going fast yet still a direct derivative of something you could see on the street or your local trackday (996 GT3 or GT3 RS).

This sim thing is fun – personally, sim-racer-games give me the opportunity to both train for trackdays during the season, and live a world not available to me – racing GT cars, and for that GTR2 would always prevail. Not unlike how flying F16s in Falcon 4 lets me live the world of those precious few who make it through the fine mesh and become fighter pilots.

[fpol]

Originally Posted by JoshuaB

cant wait to get out to Mosport this summer...!!!

Are you going to Mosport to drive or spectate?

I can't tell you all how much more you can appreciate these games if you get out there and drive these tracks at speed. And you can do it with many street cars - it's not just expensive high performance cars that you see on the track.

I'd love to do a track day at Mosport - possibly next year...

[JoshuaB]

would love to drive, but unfortunatly all i own is a 91 honda accord.. lol its rusted beyond salvation, but i do have a prelude vtec engine in it, so it does boot very well

But im done with rice, when i get my Mustang ill definetly be doing a track day at Mosport.
But until then, just spectating.

What about you?

[Huevosgrande]

<thread hijack>
Actually, I was gonna ask what you're daily driver was after noticing your avatar. I picked up a new '07 GT vert in the fall... very sweet car. In fact, one of the reasons I started playing GTL was so I could play around with the GT350 in the sim, which is still one of my fav cars to "drive". Big, lumbering, heavy American metal... far from the fastest things in the paddock, but always handfuls of fun. The cobra's fun in a similar way too, but at least with the stang & GT350 I can sort of pretend it's my real car...

No rollcage yet so I haven't had her on the track, but I would like to soon, finances permitting.

Get one and you won't be dissappointed.

</thread hijack>

[fpol]

A rusting 91 accord with a VTEC motor sounds like the perfect track car .
My trackcar (and daily driver!) is a 97 M3. Back in 97 when I was still paying for it, track days were always a bit worrisome. Now, with the car long paid for, if I ever ball it up or put it on it's roof (I've seen many a car dragged away from track days as scrap metal!) the worst is i feel remorse at the loss of an old 'friend' but have no real financial hits.

I hate tracking a new car, or rather, a car that I'm paying for. Here in the U.S., more and more Insurance companies will not cover you if you damage the car at a trackday.

[Se7en]

Originally Posted by JoshuaB

I like this game alot, but im not sure how realistic it is to drive

There are some things even the best simulator cannot simulate,
Most of the feedback is not through your hands, but through your backside. The g forces are mainly in your neck, knees and again backside. The sounds includes disc squeels, rattles, groans, squeeks, bangs etc. You can smell hot oil, burning clutch, petrol, fear and panic as you slide towards an armco. If you crash in real life you cannot reload to repair. You can't be injured in a sim.
You don't have to spend hours on your back on a cold concrete floor trying to change a busted part in time for the next race. You can't press the pause button to go to the loo.
But GTL is by far the closest yet

[Sterling Moss]

I find GTL much more "real" than GTR2.

I'll never drive any of the cars in GTR2 - but in real life I've driven a Vette, Mustang, 911, 914, Lotus Elan, BMW 3.0 SC and Alfa 2000 GT. Using this as a basis for comparison, GTL is quite accurate, except of course for the constraints imposed by the simulation, i.e. lack of G-forces, loss of steroscopic depth perception, loss of peripheral vision, etc.

The speed with which things happen in GTR2 assumes a driver with a lifetime of experience coming up through the racing ranks. Nobody gets into a 400+ horsepower racing car and starts turing even moderate laps without decades of experience. Having little basis in reality with which to compare it makes GTR2 somewhat unreal to me. Even more unreal is the F1 in the rFactor demo. I'm sure the physics are very accurate, but the speed and handling is so far out of my experience as to be unreal.

Speeds in GTL are pretty much what "normal" cars are capable of. The 914 reminds me of my old RX-7, very well balanced. The fastest car I've driven in real life is a 911 turbo (930), which scared the crap out of me (even before the cockpit filled with smoke).

[sunalp2]

For realism, I drive with a full face helmet on. My wife stands behind me, and everytime I crash (and sometimes when I don't), she hits me on the head with a sledge hammer. :slap: It keeps our marriage alive, sharing the game together.

[Ralph_B]

Originally Posted by sunalp2

For realism, I drive with a full face helmet on. My wife stands behind me, and everytime I crash .....

[snowy]

Originally Posted by sunalp2

For realism, I drive with a full face helmet on. My wife stands behind me, and everytime I crash (and sometimes when I don't), she hits me on the head with a sledge hammer. :slap: It keeps our marriage alive, sharing the game together.

Cool, My misses just leaves the room! My brother Dave who lives alone and races GT4, Toca Race Driver etc, has built himself a tub with a hydrolic system linked to the force feedback. It's very "Heath Robinson" but it actually scares the pants off you when you crash. He's got about eight huge speakers connected via a quad splitter that make you believe you have just been killed in a road accident

PS I wasn't really trying to flame GT4 earlier, or start an argument. I was simply trying to say that GTR2, GTL etc were not realistic and that GT4 was just less concerned about realism. I don't play any of them anymore because I found rFactor which is also not realistic but makes me feel like I've made love to a "real" woman and had rampant sex with a whore at the same time.

There I go plugging rFactor again :roflmao:

[fpol]

Originally Posted by Sterling Moss

The speed with which things happen in GTR2 assumes a driver with a lifetime of experience coming up through the racing ranks. Nobody gets into a 400+ horsepower racing car and starts turing even moderate laps without decades of experience.

I don't know about that, there are gentlemen drivers in FIA GT (and stuff like ALMS/Grand AM). CIO types that pay for their rides. One of the 90210 stars - don't remember his name since i don't watch that stuff - drove in the 24hrs of Daytona back in the 90's with nothing approaching decades of experience. Additionally, there are rich guys at track days with ex-GT level race cars - many of these guys are just hacks.

GTR2 isn't 'unreal' because you can't compare it rather GTR2 may not be 'relevant' to your experience (actually I think that's what you're saying so I'm basically just a wanker ). For me, it allows me to gain insight into an experience I'll never have.

There are many cars in GTR2 - the Elise isn't that far removed from a street car. GT3 Cup cars are a middle ground between an extreme track car and RSR. The MZ3 is a production car - racer. I use it to replicate my own car for 'practice'.

The area that 'I' worry about in terms of realism is the 1,000,000 rFactor mods. For every Aussie V8 mod, there appear to be 10 jokes. Things like Porsche 996's with front engines . Forget graphics, a mod is only as good as it's physics (much like a track is only as good as it's layout ), and far to many mod creators are more concerned with how it looks, than how it drives.

[Sterling Moss]

Originally Posted by fpol

GTR2 isn't 'unreal' because you can't compare it rather GTR2 may not be 'relevant' to your experience (actually I think that's what you're saying so I'm basically just a wanker ). For me, it allows me to gain insight into an experience I'll never have.

thanks for the translation, that is exactly what I meant. the real power of computer simulations is insight into otherwise unattainable experiences

Googling "90210 race driver" returns Actor Jason Priestly Seriously Injured in Racing Accident. maybe a few decades of experience would have been beneficial ...

[HAMMER]

I think the wheel/brakehop and axletramp that is simulated in GTL is as good a effect/immersion as anything else in any other sim. :confused: if ya know wot I mean :p

They all have their good points they all have their warts.

Even GT4 !@! ........ I said it !@!

hehehe

[speedysteve]

The speed with which things happen in GTR2 assumes a driver with a lifetime of experience coming up through the racing ranks. Nobody gets into a 400+ horsepower racing car and starts turing even moderate laps without decades of experience.

Hmmm, have a read of this.
http://www.mintexracing.com/press/030601_01.htm

Boyzone's star Shane certainly cannot have had decades of expereince

[JoshuaB]

i disagree about that whole decades thing to be able to drive a GTR2 car well. I would agree though that it does take alot of practice to drive any car well.

i dont quite know how to explain why my reasoning for thinking this is, but here goes a try, lol.

its not the speed and braking and turning grip, that makes driving different cars difficult.. its the driver knowing when to speed, brake, and grip. of course a regular vette is gonna get smoked by that GTR2 vette, and i do agree it would probably take a little more time to get used to the GTR2 vette, over the stock vette.. and im no expert here, i really could be way off, but i think a couple of months at most, to be able to drive the GTR2 vette fairly well. of course there is no substitute for experience, and obviously the more hours you get under your belt, the better your going to know the car.

this is just my opinion, i love cars, and learning a cars limits is a blast. I just cant see how learning a GTR2 cars limits, would take too much longer then learning a GTL cars limits. its all about knowing, i guess, physics, and limits.. a person that can find those limits well, and knows how "driving" works, should just get it.

[Sterling Moss]

There is a big difference between driving a GT car well and racing a GT car well. Changing conditions, traffic, strategy, etc. all take a great deal of seat time to learn and develop.

Even the 30-something racers like Shane Lynch have been racing for a long time. Jason Priestly was 33 when he nearly died in 2002. being rich enough to sponsor your own team means you can spend more time racing and acquire more experinece in fewer years. Mere mortals often have a more difficult and somewhat longer route to follow, having to earn sponsorship based on their driving performance (among other things).

Maybe "decades" is an overstatment, but the point still holds: it takes a lot of experience to be able to drive a 500 hp car fast in competition. Most race drivers start with carts, move to dirt track or maybe modifieds (US). Each step of the way is an increase in speed and power, and a vital component of proper training.

Privately owned Porsche turbos have killed a disproportionate share of young men who *thought* they had the right stuff.

[DaveKillens]

Going back to the original question, it's about realism. There's zillions of games out there that are tons of fun and appeal to many. But here we're trying to nail down the "realistic" aspect. I've been involved in race sims for a very long time, and remember (not too long ago either) when just getting it close was more than any programmer's dream. And now, with intense and sophisticated programming, video cards, and processors, it's now about content. As Superpask (small world, I lived in Metz a long time ago) pointed out, the game developers know who their target audience is. And the truth is, for almost all console game,s the learning curve is very short. If it wasn't, a lot of kids would abondon it very quickly. When I first got involved in flight sims, I set a goal of learning to fly and fight Falcon 3 with full authenticity. I never got there, because to learn the game fully and properly would take literally years. Sheesh, the game came with a huge manual, and even a video instruction. How many kids would put themselves through 12 hours of tutorials and dozens of failures for any game?
So these days most consoles have a very short learning curves. Almost anyone can get into the game and be reasonably competent within an hour's gameplay. To master the game, however takes longer.
In the real world mistakes cause crashes, and to go fast peoperly takes a lot of skill and experience. Personally, I just can't believe that anyone can delude themselves into believing they are Michael Schumacher using a gamepad and driver assists. To me, if it's easy then it's not realistic. GPL is now very old, it came out in 1998. But it still holds up well today because it's so darn realistic. You can go very fast, but you have to know what you're doing. And if you mess up just a little bit, you're in deep doo-doo.
And just like in the real world, if you put a wheel wrong, and put it on the grass, shouldn't you lose it and spin out? That's realism baby, sometimes the slightest mistake sucks.
GTR started life as a free mod for EA's F1 2002. I still have a burned copy in my archives. Then SimBin cleaned and polished it up, and went commercial with GTR. And personally, I don't see much improvement from GTR to GTR2.
GTL is very good, I like it's realism. And don't forget an old standard, Papyrus' NASCAR 2003.
In the end, realism, like entertainment is a perception. I used to think the original Geoff Crammond's GP was cool. Wow, how things change. And to truly cross over to where you suddenly get caught up, maybe you need to look at what these guys are doing at Force Dynamics. trust me, if I had the bucks, I'd have one...
http://www.force-dynamics.com/

[Sterling Moss]

that thing should come with seat belts and air bags

[Quklis]

Well what I'm thinking GTL is enough real to me (if I can't handle the cars in that
reality, how should it to be used with better reality?!), and I prefer to drive classics cars than über-powered-über-cars (like those in GTR(2)) so GTL fits right to me and I think handling is a bigger thing than graphics!

[Snowcat]

*Watching the FD video clips with a loud chuckle*

Can ye imagine a typical 10t 1st corner shunt with that thing throwing you around?!?

one word..... OUCH! :roflmao:

Yep... If I win the lottery tonight, I'm buying one tomorrow.

[Kongo]

What about Frex's SimconMOTION?
Google search it.
FUN!

[lowndes888]

this is comparison of GTR2 to reality. I think it's close enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDZrQYdVhCM

[sunalp2]

Originally Posted by lowndes888

this is comparison of GTR2 to reality. I think it's close enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDZrQYdVhCM

erm??? Which was which?

[lowndes888]

Originally Posted by sunalp2

erm??? Which was which?

What do you mean by that?:confused:

[sunalp2]

I couldn't tell which was the game or which was the real incar footage.:p I'm guessing the top was the game?

[lowndes888]

The one on the top.